IFB vs Church of Christ

DrHuk&Duck

DrHuk&Duck

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I was invited to attend a service at a CoC. Not knowing anything about them, I was surprised how similar they are with the Baptists. I do note a couple of pertinent theological differences though, particularly salvation must include baptism and the belief in salvation can be lost. I haven’t decided yet if I’ll visit. I might just out of curiosity. Another odd thing is they refuse to use any instruments in their church service. On the other hand, they are perfectly happy doing a CCM or jazz or country concert in the same church building as long as it’s not an official church service. I find this a bit bizarre and somewhat hypocritical.
 
The music thing comes from the Regulative Principle of Worship, which says (in its stricter form) that since God has not positively commanded the use of instruments in corporate worship, they must not be used. There's nothing in the RPW saying you can't enjoy instrumental music at other times. That's not hypocrisy, it's just context.

Early on, when the Reformers removed organs from churches for the same reason, a lot of those organs found their way into private homes. Same idea.

The CoC's heretical belief in baptismal regeneration is far more concerning.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
I do note a couple of pertinent theological differences though, particularly salvation must include baptism and the belief in salvation can be lost.
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That right there is why I regard them as no different than JWs or Mormons.
 
abcaines said:
That right there is why I regard them as no different than JWs or Mormons.
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I’ve been reading some of the reviews from people who attended their churches and affiliated colleges. I got some of the same vibes as you did. But honestly, reading some of their reviews reminds me of a lot of the same sentiments that come from people who have grown up in the IFB world.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
But honestly, reading some of their reviews reminds me of a lot of the same sentiments that come from people who have grown up in the IFB world.
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CoC and IFB bad mouthing their respective backgrounds?
 
How often do the CoC’s believe a person can lose their salvation? According to this article, they call salvation a “process.” Not trying to be silly here, but can a person lose salvation daily or just when big sin acts are committed? And when this happens, do they believe a person must start all over again with baptism anew? This could turn into a vicious cycle!?! https://www.christianity.com/church...heir-history-and-beliefs.html#google_vignette
 
abcaines said:
CoC and IFB bad mouthing their respective backgrounds?
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Well, I grew up IFB. I’m still IFB, but I’m just not one of the good role models in the IFB anymore. I’m sort of one of the those just hanging on.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
Another odd thing is they refuse to use any instruments in their church service. On the other hand, they are perfectly happy doing a CCM or jazz or country concert in the same church building as long as it’s not an official church service. I find this a bit bizarre and somewhat hypocritical.
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Ransom said:
The music thing comes from the Regulative Principle of Worship, which says (in its stricter form) that since God has not positively commanded the use of instruments in corporate worship, they must not be used.
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They weren't used in the Metropolitan Tabernacle in Spurgeon's day. Not sure if they are today.


Verse 2. Praise the Lord with harp. Men need all the help they can get to stir them up to praise. This is the lesson to be gathered from the use of musical instruments under the old dispensation. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days, when Jesus gives us spiritual manhood, we can make melody without strings and pipes. We who do not believe these things to be expedient in worship, lest they should mar its simplicity, do not affirm them to be unlawful, and if any George Herbert or Martin Luther can worship God better by the aid of well tunes instruments, who shall gainsay their right? We do not need them, they would hinder than help our praise, but if others are otherwise minded, are they not living in gospel liberty? Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best of music. No instrument like the human voice. As a help to singing the instrument is alone to be tolerated, for keys and strings do not praise the Lord. With the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. The Lord must have a full octave, for all notes are his, and all music belongs to him. Where several pieces of music are mentioned, we are taught to praise God with all the powers which we possess.​
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Verse 2. Praise the Lord with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Here we have the first mention of musical instruments in the Psalms. It is to be observed that the early fathers almost with one accord protest against their use in churches; as they are forbidden in the Eastern church to this day, where yet, by the consent of all, the singing is infinitely superior to anything that can be heard in the West. J. M. Neale.​
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Verse 2. Harp; Psaltery, etc. Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaise. Thomas Aquinas. It was only permitted to the Jews, as sacrifice was, for the heaviness and grossness of their souls. God condescended to their weakness, because they were lately drawn off from idols; but now instead of organs, we may use our own bodies to praise him withal. Chrysostom. The use of singing with instrumental music was not received in the Christian churches as it was among the Jews in their infant state, but only the use of plain song. Justin Martyr.​
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Verse 2. (last clause). It is said that David praised God upon an instrument of ten strings; and he would never have told how many strings there were, but that without doubt he made use of them all. God hath given all of us bodies, as it were, instruments of many strings; and can we think it music good enough to strike but one string, to call upon him with our tongues only? No, no; when the still sound of the heart by holy thoughts, and the shrill sound of the tongue by holy words, and the loud sound of the hands by pious works, do all join together, that is God's concert, and the only music wherewith he is affected. Sir Richard Baker.​
 
Ekklesian said:
They weren't used in the Metropolitan Tabernacle in Spurgeon's day. Not sure if they are today.


Verse 2. Praise the Lord with harp. Men need all the help they can get to stir them up to praise. This is the lesson to be gathered from the use of musical instruments under the old dispensation. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days, when Jesus gives us spiritual manhood, we can make melody without strings and pipes. We who do not believe these things to be expedient in worship, lest they should mar its simplicity, do not affirm them to be unlawful, and if any George Herbert or Martin Luther can worship God better by the aid of well tunes instruments, who shall gainsay their right? We do not need them, they would hinder than help our praise, but if others are otherwise minded, are they not living in gospel liberty? Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best of music. No instrument like the human voice. As a help to singing the instrument is alone to be tolerated, for keys and strings do not praise the Lord. With the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. The Lord must have a full octave, for all notes are his, and all music belongs to him. Where several pieces of music are mentioned, we are taught to praise God with all the powers which we possess.​
​
...​

Verse 2. Praise the Lord with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Here we have the first mention of musical instruments in the Psalms. It is to be observed that the early fathers almost with one accord protest against their use in churches; as they are forbidden in the Eastern church to this day, where yet, by the consent of all, the singing is infinitely superior to anything that can be heard in the West. J. M. Neale.​
​
Verse 2. Harp; Psaltery, etc. Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaise. Thomas Aquinas. It was only permitted to the Jews, as sacrifice was, for the heaviness and grossness of their souls. God condescended to their weakness, because they were lately drawn off from idols; but now instead of organs, we may use our own bodies to praise him withal. Chrysostom. The use of singing with instrumental music was not received in the Christian churches as it was among the Jews in their infant state, but only the use of plain song. Justin Martyr.​
​
Verse 2. (last clause). It is said that David praised God upon an instrument of ten strings; and he would never have told how many strings there were, but that without doubt he made use of them all. God hath given all of us bodies, as it were, instruments of many strings; and can we think it music good enough to strike but one string, to call upon him with our tongues only? No, no; when the still sound of the heart by holy thoughts, and the shrill sound of the tongue by holy words, and the loud sound of the hands by pious works, do all join together, that is God's concert, and the only music wherewith he is affected. Sir Richard Baker.​
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It’s an interesting debate that I’d never really given much thought to. Growing up IFB, I was accustomed to the debate of which instruments should be allowed in worship and which shouldn’t. There were always arguments made with justification on both ends, but no argument was ever complete without the mention of the origin of certain instruments from African witchcraft or something sultry and sexualized. However, the idea of zero instruments is a fairly new concept for me.
 
Ransom said:
There's nothing in the RPW saying you can't enjoy instrumental music at other times. That's not hypocrisy, it's just context.
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Ransom is correct. Church of Christ folk feel that instruments are forbidden only in worship, not at other times. I was a friend of the family of the Church of Christ preacher in Cooksville, Illinois. The only "instrument" they used was a tuning fork to start off the song, and when I visited, the singing was awful because they did not know the tunes. My buddy was a big John Denver fan and would have liked to attend one of his concerts live, but if on vacation, if he walked into an "instrumental" Church of Christ and saw an organ in the sanctuary, he and his family would turn around and walk out. Not much different from certain IFBs who will not attend a church that is not KJV Only or where the wimmin-folk wear britches.

Yes, the Church of Christ belief in baptismal regeneration (they don't use the term, but that's what it is) is very concerning and heretical. They are very nice folks, Arminian (no total depravity), they reject pre-mil dispensational prophecy, they are conservative and Bible-believing, but I could never endorse or recommend any church that teaches water baptism as a requirement to be saved.
 
illinoisguy said:
Ransom is correct. Church of Christ folk feel that instruments are forbidden only in worship, not at other times. I was a friend of the family of the Church of Christ preacher in Cooksville, Illinois. The only "instrument" they used was a tuning fork to start off the song, and when I visited, the singing was awful because they did not know the tunes. My buddy was a big John Denver fan and would have liked to attend one of his concerts live, but if on vacation, if he walked into an "instrumental" Church of Christ and saw an organ in the sanctuary, he and his family would turn around and walk out. Not much different from certain IFBs who will not attend a church that is not KJV Only or where the wimmin-folk wear britches.

Yes, the Church of Christ belief in baptismal regeneration (they don't use the term, but that's what it is) is very concerning and heretical. They are very nice folks, Arminian (no total depravity), they reject pre-mil dispensational prophecy, they are conservative and Bible-believing, but I could never endorse or recommend any church that teaches water baptism as a requirement to be saved.
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IOW, they are a legalistic cult.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
However, the idea of zero instruments is a fairly new concept for me.
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It's a mainstream (albeit minority) opinion in Reformed circles. Not one I happen to agree with, but it's a theological tradition going right back to the magisterial Reformers (Calvin and those who came after him).
 
Ransom said:
Legalistic, yes. Not sure if they qualify as a "cult."
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I agree. I haven’t visited one of their services yet, but I have spoken to a couple members. I’ve also been on campus at one of their affiliated colleges before. They actually really remind me of a less legalistic version of the old Bob Jones or PCC crowd. I’d put them more on par with the conservative SBC crowd than the IFBs. The major difference being the theological interpretation of baptism and musical instruments.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
The major difference being the theological interpretation of baptism and musical instruments.
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Interestingly, the author Max Lucado (who was educated at a Churches of Christ-affiliated university) pastors a church that left the CoC specifically because Lucado didn't hold to those two doctrinal distinctives.
 
Ransom said:
Interestingly, the author Max Lucado (who was educated at a Churches of Christ-affiliated university) pastors a church that left the CoC specifically because Lucado didn't hold to those two doctrinal distinctives.
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I’ve actually found it interesting that the CoC seem to really put an emphasis on education, which historically is the opposite of many IFBs. This whole situation began as a result of my daughter looking and researching some colleges. One college she’s interested in visiting is affiliated with the CoC. I was shocked to discover that so many of the “Christian colleges” I’ve heard of are actually CoC, Pepperdine University being one of the more prestigious and well known. She still has over a year before it’s time to send out applications, so we’re in the early stages of research.
 
abcaines said:
www.gotquestions.org

Is the Church of Christ a good biblical church? | GotQuestions.org

Is the Church of Christ a good biblical church? What are some possible problems with the 'Church of Christ' denomination?
www.gotquestions.org
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CoC isn’t alone on the baptismal regeneration issue. It’s apparently prevalent among Catholics, Anglicans, some orthodox sects and Lutheran groups as well. Not defending it, just pointing out they aren’t alone: https://www.proclaimanddefend.org/2017/11/27/acts-238-and-baptismal-regeneration/
 
Another interesting article - the International Churches of Christ, also known as Boston Church of Christ or Boston Movement. They are a Campbellite (Church of Christ) spin-off, more extreme than the mainline Campbellites - heavy emphasis on baptism for salvation, but they add an extremist policy on "shepherding" and complete control of the lives of their members. They say they are the only ones going to heaven - all others, including mainline Church of Christ people, are lost. If approached by the ICC people, run in the opposite direction as fast as possible!

www.gotquestions.org

What is the International Church of Christ (ICOC), and what do they believe? | GotQuestions.org

What is the International Church of Christ (ICOC), and what do they believe? What are some possible problems with the 'International Church of Christ' denomination?
www.gotquestions.org

I was sitting in the park in Chicago one day and was approached by a very nice young man and woman who were with the ICC, who wanted me to come to a different section of the park so they could conduct a Bible study with me. I told them I would be happy for them to talk with me right where we were, but I was not going to go with them to that other location, because a band was getting set up there that would be playing very loud music and make it impossible for them to do a Bible study there. They disregarded my advice and politely excused themselves and went to that other location. My impression was that they had authoritative instructions to use that other site, however impractical, and in that type of strict, regimented, dictatorial cult-like movement, you have to just do what the leaders tell you what to do, without question.
 
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