Independent Baptists in Australia?

[Jet]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with the Independent Baptist movement in Australia? My impression is that many of these churches in Australia were either planted by IFB missionaries from the USA or are modeled on IFB churches from the USA,  they are definitely not a home grown movement.  I'd like to know what streams of fundamentalism they derived from, the political landscape in Australia, and what are some issues I should be aware of.

The reason I ask is because in recent times I've been attending an IB church along with other family members. I consider my background as "conservative evangelical" which is the environment I grew up in. The IB Church I now attend seems to be noticeably less conservative compared to some other IB churches here. However they only use the KJV bible , only sing hyms (no CCM), and their dress standards is conservative but less strict then most other IB churches. They are not cultish or controlling or just plain crazy like some of the stories you hear, thought there are some extremists amongst the congregation. Also some members do appear to look down on you if you attend any church other than an IB.

 

[praise_yeshua]

While IFB are "independent"....

The old saying still holds true.... "birds of a feather, flock together".

When you say the church you attend isn't cultish or controlling..... but only uses the KJV and only sings hymns..... well. Those are two contradictory statements. Nothing wrong with using a different English version of the Scriptures. Nothing wrong with sing CCM music in praise to God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

You're being "controlled".

Who cares who the come from. Open your eyes and see WHAT THEY ARE.... right in front of you.

Historical Christianity is more important than the "flavor of the moment" denomination that claims to teach it. The historical "Scriptures" is what you need.

 

[Jet]

You're being "controlled".

I don't think so. I still use the bible version I prefer and listen to my choice of music.

I don't have an issue with a church that choses only one style of music for it's services and ministries and likewise choses one bible version. What I would take issue with is if a church demands I also do the same in my personal life, that would be controlling and I would leave.

Now having said that, I'm not yet a member of this church and not involved in any of it's ministries, but so far they don't appear to be the type that control your personal life.

Historical Christianity is more important than the "flavor of the moment" denomination that claims to teach it. The historical "Scriptures" is what you need.

Yep, totally agree there.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're being "controlled".

I don't think so. I still use the bible version I prefer and listen to my choice of music.

I don't have an issue with a church that choses only one style of music for it's services and ministries and likewise choses one bible version. What I would take issue with is if a church demands I also do the same in my personal life, that would be controlling and I would leave.

Now having said that, I'm not yet a member of this church and not involved in any of it's ministries, but so far they don't appear to be the type that control your personal life.

Historical Christianity is more important than the "flavor of the moment" denomination that claims to teach it. The historical "Scriptures" is what you need.

Yep, totally agree there.

I'm glad you agree.

I think you're missing it....

When a church chooses to restrict singing to hymns and bible translation to the KJV, then they are setting a standard. That standard is instituted to INFLUENCE your personal life.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out the facts. It has been my experience, that such "standards" are expected in the personal lives of those who attend that "IFB" church.

I've tried what you're trying. Several times. Eventually, this seemingly.... lacks standard..... will be a requirement. If you want to be quiet and never say anything to contrary.... you might last a little while. Sooner or later, it will become an issue. Just saying....

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Praise,

I think you are wrong.  It seems you are finding cause for effect which is not the cause.  Using a preferred version and genre in and of itself does not make one controlling.  This simply means that you choose a certain version and genre for corporate teaching and worship.  Control and manipulation are typically the result of empire-building, or self-promotion - pride.

Every church has a goal of influencing your personal life.  We are trying to help bring people to sanctification.  If the worship and teaching of the church does not influence anyone's personal life, what are they doing?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Praise,

I think you are wrong.  It seems you are finding cause for effect which is not the cause.  Using a preferred version and genre in and of itself does not make one controlling.  This simply means that you choose a certain version and genre for corporate teaching and worship.  Control and manipulation are typically the result of empire-building, or self-promotion - pride.

Every church has a goal of influencing your personal life.  We are trying to help bring people to sanctification.  If the worship and teaching of the church does not influence anyone's personal life, what are they doing?

Explain this to me...... I don't get it....

A church "controls" what English version of the Scriptures that can be used in their services and.... Magically.... somehow.... they are not attempting to "control" what someone hears?

They are not just "preferring" the KJV, they are not allowing anyone to use anything else in their services. They are not just preferring hymns, they are not allowing anyone to use CCM..... Yet... somehow.... magically.... this isn't "controlling" something?

Okay.... they allow you do what you want at home!!! Well..... pardon me if I'm not impressed. They do what they want at home. Everyone does what they want at home.

You've actually.... got it backwards. What I do at home is my ONLY standard. Doing my standard at home and something else at church.... that's REAL hypocrisy. Church is a place of diversity. Church is a place where God's children, all being different, can come together and worship our Lord. What English version they use doesn't really matter. What genre of music they choose to employ.... doesn't matter.

This church is saying.... IT DOES MATTER. Geesh!!!

 

[Walt]

While IFB are "independent"....

The old saying still holds true.... "birds of a feather, flock together".

When you say the church you attend isn't cultish or controlling..... but only uses the KJV and only sings hymns..... well. Those are two contradictory statements. Nothing wrong with using a different English version of the Scriptures. Nothing wrong with sing CCM music in praise to God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

You're being "controlled".

A line is crossed here.

There are groups that prefer the KJV, and consider other versions corrupted.  This doesn't make anyone a cult, just because they disagree with you.

There are those that prefer traditional hymns and consider CCM too much like the world.  Nothing cult-like here - just a disagreement about certain practices.

 

[Biker]

"However they only use the KJV bible , only sing hyms"

Question is..who is "they"?? Because if it is the Elders aka Pastors, it is unlikely ALL Of them would be using the same version.
There could be some control going on.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if the entire church is using the same version, then of course, there is some control happening. Cause this isn't a fluke. Time to  RUN from that church or set them straight OUTLOUD during a church service.

Hymns are all we use, and I suggest others follow suit. Because so many cannot worship to anything else so that in itself, restricts it since the gospel requires worship through song. It has nothing to do with any secular control

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Praise,

I think you are wrong.  It seems you are finding cause for effect which is not the cause.  Using a preferred version and genre in and of itself does not make one controlling.  This simply means that you choose a certain version and genre for corporate teaching and worship.  Control and manipulation are typically the result of empire-building, or self-promotion - pride.

Every church has a goal of influencing your personal life.  We are trying to help bring people to sanctification.  If the worship and teaching of the church does not influence anyone's personal life, what are they doing?

Explain this to me...... I don't get it....

A church "controls" what English version of the Scriptures that can be used in their services and.... Magically.... somehow.... they are not attempting to "control" what someone hears?

They are not just "preferring" the KJV, they are not allowing anyone to use anything else in their services. They are not just preferring hymns, they are not allowing anyone to use CCM..... Yet... somehow.... magically.... this isn't "controlling" something?

Okay.... they allow you do what you want at home!!! Well..... pardon me if I'm not impressed. They do what they want at home. Everyone does what they want at home.

You've actually.... got it backwards. What I do at home is my ONLY standard. Doing my standard at home and something else at church.... that's REAL hypocrisy. Church is a place of diversity. Church is a place where God's children, all being different, can come together and worship our Lord. What English version they use doesn't really matter. What genre of music they choose to employ.... doesn't matter.

This church is saying.... IT DOES MATTER. Geesh!!!

Just because a church does something, does not make them controlling.  I think you are using the term "Controlling" in too broad of a manner.  If my church sings Fanny Crosby songs, is it controlling because it did not sing David Crowder songs?  Conversely, if your church sings David Crowder songs, is it controlling because it did not sing Fanny Crosby songs?  Even in a very liberal church, the speaker will state something like: "In The Message, we read...."  Is he controlling you?

I think there is great difference between a controlling, manipulative MOG and choosing a style and version for corporate worship and study.

Oh, and, FWIW:  The BIBLE is my ONLY standard!  HHHAAAAAYYYMEN!  ;D

 

[praise_yeshua]

While IFB are "independent"....

The old saying still holds true.... "birds of a feather, flock together".

When you say the church you attend isn't cultish or controlling..... but only uses the KJV and only sings hymns..... well. Those are two contradictory statements. Nothing wrong with using a different English version of the Scriptures. Nothing wrong with sing CCM music in praise to God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

You're being "controlled".

A line is crossed here.

There are groups that prefer the KJV, and consider other versions corrupted.  This doesn't make anyone a cult, just because they disagree with you.

There are those that prefer traditional hymns and consider CCM too much like the world.  Nothing cult-like here - just a disagreement about certain practices.

While they might not be as bad as some..... they are certainly "cultish".

You don't really prefer anything. You do it yourself and you require anyone that wants to be part of your membership to agree in the same. If this isn't "cultish"... what is?

You require the KJV be used in your services. You require "ONLY hymns" to be sung. A requirement isn't a preference. You may pretend it is.... but it isn't.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Praise,

I think you are wrong.  It seems you are finding cause for effect which is not the cause.  Using a preferred version and genre in and of itself does not make one controlling.  This simply means that you choose a certain version and genre for corporate teaching and worship.  Control and manipulation are typically the result of empire-building, or self-promotion - pride.

Every church has a goal of influencing your personal life.  We are trying to help bring people to sanctification.  If the worship and teaching of the church does not influence anyone's personal life, what are they doing?

Explain this to me...... I don't get it....

A church "controls" what English version of the Scriptures that can be used in their services and.... Magically.... somehow.... they are not attempting to "control" what someone hears?

They are not just "preferring" the KJV, they are not allowing anyone to use anything else in their services. They are not just preferring hymns, they are not allowing anyone to use CCM..... Yet... somehow.... magically.... this isn't "controlling" something?

Okay.... they allow you do what you want at home!!! Well..... pardon me if I'm not impressed. They do what they want at home. Everyone does what they want at home.

You've actually.... got it backwards. What I do at home is my ONLY standard. Doing my standard at home and something else at church.... that's REAL hypocrisy. Church is a place of diversity. Church is a place where God's children, all being different, can come together and worship our Lord. What English version they use doesn't really matter. What genre of music they choose to employ.... doesn't matter.

This church is saying.... IT DOES MATTER. Geesh!!!

Just because a church does something, does not make them controlling.  I think you are using the term "Controlling" in too broad of a manner.  If my church sings Fanny Crosby songs, is it controlling because it did not sing David Crowder songs?  Conversely, if your church sings David Crowder songs, is it controlling because it did not sing Fanny Crosby songs?  Even in a very liberal church, the speaker will state something like: "In The Message, we read...."  Is he controlling you?

I think there is great difference between a controlling, manipulative MOG and choosing a style and version for corporate worship and study.

A requirement is a requirement. There is no preference involved. I prefer complete silence when I go to church. I don't like to hear anyone but those that have the "floor" at the moment. I NEVER get this. I don't get mad. I realize my preference just isn't practical and that I just might be wrong. I don't break fellowship over it. This exactly what these types of churches do.

Oh, and, FWIW:  The BIBLE is my ONLY standard!  HHHAAAAAYYYMEN!  ;D

Which one?

I was talking about the practice of a standard.

 

[Biker]

Praise,

I think you are wrong.  It seems you are finding cause for effect which is not the cause.  Using a preferred version and genre in and of itself does not make one controlling.

No it doesn't. It's when you see that "preferred" version being used by everyone and taught accordingly.

This simply means that you choose a certain version and genre for corporate teaching and worship.

You is singular. So I agree, all members should use whatever version they choose.

  Control and manipulation are typically the result of empire-building, or self-promotion - pride.

Exactly.

Every church has a goal of influencing your personal life.  We are trying to help bring people to sanctification.  If the worship and teaching of the church does not influence anyone's personal life, what are they doing?

Um....worded a bit odd but yes bringing people to Christ is our job.
I believe this may be the first post you've ever had that I agree with. Sounds as if you are getting more solid in your theology.

 

[Jet]

I think some may have misunderstood what I wrote. It's the pastor or whoever is preaching that only use the KJV during a sermon. No body checks what bible version you are carrying when you enter the church building. I've never heard of any church that does that and I would definitely RUN from a church that did.

However I do believe that they expect a leader of any of their ministries will only teach from the KJV, ie. Sunday School teachers, bible study leaders, etc. I haven't participated in any of these groups yet. If it happens that they demand people participating in these groups must also only use a KJV then yes I would find that controlling.

When a church chooses to restrict singing to hymns and bible translation to the KJV, then they are setting a standard. That standard is instituted to INFLUENCE your personal life.

Like what another member said that's what most churches aim to do in some form or another.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out the facts. It has been my experience, that such "standards" are expected in the personal lives of those who attend that "IFB" church.

I've tried what you're trying. Several times. Eventually, this seemingly.... lacks standard..... will be a requirement. If you want to be quiet and never say anything to contrary.... you might last a little while. Sooner or later, it will become an issue. Just saying....

You might be right and that's part of the reason I'm learning more about the IFB movement. So far this particular church seems much less intrusive and fundy compared to most other IFB churches I'm aware of.

 

[Biker]

I think some may have misunderstood what I wrote. It's the pastor or whoever is preaching that only use the KJV during a sermon. No body checks what bible version you are carrying when you enter the church building. I've never heard of any church that does that and I would definitely RUN from a church that did.

Jet, nice to meet you
First, I would check to ensure the church is set up per scripture. If not, it's not likely a church. Churches that have one Pastor such as a pyramid scheme are of course, almost always going to have control issues. They are not operating per scripture. You must seek out what the world knows as an ELDER run church because there is no such thing as "The Pastor". Apostle Paul didn't command it be that way. Also seek out Expository preaching.
Ok back to the KJV. If the Pastor prefers it, which I do also, that is fine. Everyone will have one or a few versions they favor. I use others but generally trust that version more. It's when you see ALL Of the Teaching Elders using the same version, and it is being touted as superior is where you will find issues.

However I do believe that they expect a leader of any of their ministries will only teach from the KJV, ie. Sunday School teachers, bible study leaders, etc.

That is something you need to find out.

I haven't participated in any of these groups yet. If it happens that they demand people participating in these groups must also only use a KJV then yes I would find that controlling.

Good for you. It's not biblical

With all the controversy regarding music, the church as a whole must make a decision either way regarding music. BUT ALSO KNOW that if they do restrict it to hymns, then that doesn't mean that any church functions at a members home will not involve a band, guitar or any other instrument. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I personally, can worship to that. Just know if you attend a church which tries to control members homes & music, I'd RUN. All members have the right to have the church over for fellowship and engage in whatever music they choose outside of a church service. Our church, both we currently attend (we just moved), have at least one member who has folks over regularly and they sit and play music together, a band basically. No one that Ive heard of has any issues with it, and if so, tough. They don't need to attend.

  You might be right and that's part of the reason I'm learning more about the IFB movement. So far this particular church seems much less intrusive and fundy compared to most other IFB churches I'm aware of.

Less intrusive? less fundy? It should not be intrusive at all. This is sin. You are an adult right? My suggestion is to stay far away from all IFB churches and seek out a non-denominational church. Then you likely won't need your measuring stick regarding intrusiveness though nothing is guaranteed.  I'll say a prayer you find a bible based church. You can go to the Masters Seminary website and they have a link to churches in your area.

 

[Biker]

Here you go

http://www.tms.edu/find-a-church/

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think some may have misunderstood what I wrote. It's the pastor or whoever is preaching that only use the KJV during a sermon. No body checks what bible version you are carrying when you enter the church building. I've never heard of any church that does that and I would definitely RUN from a church that did.

However I do believe that they expect a leader of any of their ministries will only teach from the KJV, ie. Sunday School teachers, bible study leaders, etc. I haven't participated in any of these groups yet. If it happens that they demand people participating in these groups must also only use a KJV then yes I would find that controlling.

Why would they check your Bible? Why are you drawing a line at checking your Bible? They are teaching you what they expect. If you have kids, they are getting it too.

I can almost guarantee you....that if they knew you were carrying a NIV, very soon, you'd hear about it in a sermon.

When a church chooses to restrict singing to hymns and bible translation to the KJV, then they are setting a standard. That standard is instituted to INFLUENCE your personal life.

Like what another member said that's what most churches aim to do in some form or another.

True to some degree. However, there are still some churches and leaders around that actually treat a "preference" as a "preference". Its not official part of any standard. In the Scriptures, Paul did just that when he spoke of marriage. How a man was better off serving the Lord if he did not marry. However, he was clear that this did not come from the Lord and that every man had his own gift from God. His own place. His own path to choose. That, my friend, is how you deal with a "preference". Its not teaching that God likes something better.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out the facts. It has been my experience, that such "standards" are expected in the personal lives of those who attend that "IFB" church.

I've tried what you're trying. Several times. Eventually, this seemingly.... lacks standard..... will be a requirement. If you want to be quiet and never say anything to contrary.... you might last a little while. Sooner or later, it will become an issue. Just saying....

You might be right and that's part of the reason I'm learning more about the IFB movement. So far this particular church seems much less intrusive and fundy compared to most other IFB churches I'm aware of.

I'd say you just haven't gotten to know them very well. I'm not trying be a cynic but I am. Can't help it. Been there. Done it too many times not to be.

You can clear it up really quick. Have a meeting with the pastor and deacons and tell them that you don't agree with their "preferences" but you're glad they are just preferences and not standards. Then tell them you would like to join the church and teach in some small capacity.

Tell me how they react. I suspect you will either get a clear NO.... or you'll get the run around about proving yourself first. Word of wisdom. You'll probably never get past the probation period. Its just an excuse to keep you coming and never let you get involved.

 

[FSSL]

However I do believe that they expect a leader of any of their ministries will only teach from the KJV, ie. Sunday School teachers, bible study leaders, etc. I haven't participated in any of these groups yet. If it happens that they demand people participating in these groups must also only use a KJV then yes I would find that controlling.

Yes. The requirement of all teaching in a church to be from the KJV is typically accompanied by the explanation... "We don't want confusion" and/or "We just want consistency." Manipulation.

I can understand if the pastor uses one version, consistently, as a preferred text... but requiring all teachers to use the same, violates soul liberty.

It is politics. Learned behavior from a Bible college. Before the KJVO popularity in IFB churches in the 1970s, you never heard of this kind of requirement with those kinds of manipulative statements.

People are neither confused nor need consistency of a particular version in a church.

 

[Jet]

Less intrusive? less fundy? It should not be intrusive at all. This is sin. You are an adult right? My suggestion is to stay far away from all IFB churches and seek out a non-denominational church. Then you likely won't need your measuring stick regarding intrusiveness though nothing is guaranteed.  I'll say a prayer you find a bible based church. You can go to the Masters Seminary website and they have a link to churches in your area.

I mean overall they are not much different from other evangelical churches I've attended in terms of control. The main difference I see, which makes them a little controlling, is they require the use of the KJV if you are in a teaching position - which I do consider as a negative.

The reason I began attending this church was to support some family members  that prefer a more conservative church over contemporary ones they had experienced. Personally I've always been somewhat suspicious of IFB churches and they wouldn't normally be my first choice for a church.

Thanks for your prayers, I do appreciate it. 

You can clear it up really quick. Have a meeting with the pastor and deacons and tell them that you don't agree with their "preferences" but you're glad they are just preferences and not standards. Then tell them you would like to join the church and teach in some small capacity.

Tell me how they react. I suspect you will either get a clear NO.... or you'll get the run around about proving yourself first. Word of wisdom. You'll probably never get past the probation period. Its just an excuse to keep you coming and never let you get involved.

I haven't yet decided that I do want to join the church. If I do, yes the conversation should be interesting and  revealing.

Again the reason I'm hear is to learn more about the IFB.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

If they required the use of a different version for teaching, would it still be controlling?  Is it the concept, or the version with which you have a problem?

 

[praise_yeshua]

If they required the use of a different version for teaching, would it still be controlling?  Is it the concept, or the version with which you have a problem?

Both!!!