Mitex said:
Mitex is on a RABBIT trail!
DON'T look now, but his own translation committee denied him the ability to put the Polish term for Easter in his NT. That must sting!
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Mitex is on a RABBIT trail!
DON'T look now, but his own translation committee denied him the ability to put the Polish term for Easter in his NT. That must sting!
Mitex said:
I am wondering.... why did you translate this as 'are sold.'?
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Mitex said:
Dear Mitex I will take up your challenge but, I will do it on my terms, in my time frame.
First off, I am not a professional Bible translator like you, so please do not expect too much from me. I will not give you a professional linguistically perfect translation, but it should suffice for understanding the text.
Second my time is rather limited this week as I am traveling every day and that is not conducive to good research. So you will have to accept a piecemeal word for word approach.
Third, you seem to be setting up some kind of gotacha that you are gleefully anticipating.
Πάσχα
I thought I should take a look at an English Bible, I normally have with me, produced by English speaking Greek Christians, to see how they would translate pascha in their English translation. Does that sound like a good idea? Real English speaking Greeks in the USA.
So I got out one of my favorite English translations in fine paper and leather.
I just love this copy of the Bible.
"THE ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE"
Published by Thomas Nelson.
Copyright 2008 by St. Athanasius Academy of Orthodox Theology
This Bible has a very nice introduction to the Eastern Orthodox Church, Greek Catholics.
This Bible has the OT translated from the LXX OT Greek Scriptures and the NT from the Standard Greek Orthodox NT in use by Greek speaking Christians for the last 2000 years, (Byzantine Text Type) since the time of Paul and Timothy. It is more than likely the same text that Timothy had known from a child. The Greek OT, LXX.
One of the complaints I have with using the Hebrew OT is that the NT quotes do not match what is in the OT.
Just one example to illustrate the usefulness of having a Bible produced by Greek and English speaking Christians.
Let's look at Heb 1:6
In most decent reference Bibles (ie. your Scofield etc.) you will find a margin note that says Duet 32:43 LXX. Now most people have no idea what that means.
The phrase in question is "And let all the angels of God worship him"
If you look in Duet 32:43 and try to find that phrase in a KJV you will find;
"Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: For he will avenge the blood of his servants, And will render vengeance to his adversaries"
Now if you look in my Orthodox Study Bible in Duet 32:43 you will find "And let all the angels of God be Strong with Him" much closer than what you will find from the Hebrew text translations extant today.
Ok so that is the Bible I will be checking to see how real authentic Greek reading and Greek speaking Christians who live in the USA and also speak and read English would translate pascha in our day (2008).
Lets look in the index-concordance to see if the word easter can be found. Well looky there, it is not any where in the index-concordance. I could not find it anywhere the word pascha is found in the Orthodox Greek text.
Ok let's check Acts 12:4, surely we will find it here. Here is Acts 12:4 in my Orthodox Study Bible.
"So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover"
Wow I guess they didn't know it was supposed to be Easter not Passover (pascha).
Bad, bad, naughty, naughty, Greek Orthodox Christians. They are just as ignorant as I am. I told you I am not a professional translator. Not real smart either.
I wonder what they have Passover or pascha in the index?
Let's look. Well look at that it says Passover/pascha over a list of more than 50 references.
What is wrong with these Greek speaking Greek reading Christians? Are they all imbeciles?
Don't they know that Easter should be found in their English translation?
Oh the humanity of it all.
Well I am out of time. Guess the Greek Orthodox are just as dumb as those of us that think Easter should not be in a Bible.
So according to the Greek Orthodox English speaking Christians Πάσχα should be translated Passover.
I agree the first word of your little ditty is "Passover"
I'll do more when I get a chance to sit for awhile.
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Take all the time you need. No rush.bgwilkinson said:
Your task is to translate from Greek into English:
- Πάσχα κουνέλια είναι προς πώληση στην Ελλάδα.
- Καλό Πάσχα!
And from English into Greek and Latin:
- Easter bunnies are sold in Greece.
- Happy Easter!
I only expect a person that has professed to know Greek and Latin from a child to be able to translate 4 simple sentences in a reasonable amount of time.
Never in my wildest dreams did I expect it to take such a long time to translate simple sentences, especially from someone that has professed to know Greek & Latin from his youth.
I don't play "gotcha" games. My questions aren't that difficult nor are they "gotcha" type questions. They are asked in order to find the answer and test the veracity of statements and theories made by those on this forum. Is that why you continue to refuse to answer questions after demanding that I answer ALL your questions? Which I did by the way by faithfully going through all your threads? You are afraid of a little ridicule? Are you afraid to step out from behind your anemometer (wind gauge)? You have to check the polls, see what others are saying and then answer? Afraid of being found wrong? The only winner in an honest debate is the loser. He's the only one who learns anything.
Irrelevant to the task at hand. It is a distraction and a waste of your precious time and mine!
Nothing that I know of. I doubt that any of them are imbeciles.
The definition of Easter has changed over time and context. Having various meanings: 1. passover (obsolete), 2. an annual Christian festival in commemoration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 3. the period between Good Friday and Easter Monday 4. an adjective to describe bunnies, chocolate, etc. 5. etc.
You wouldn't have been out of time had you simply translated the sentences as requested instead of chasing Easter rabbits.
In the proper context passover is a valid translation of the Greek word Πάσχα.
Take your time. Remember context is important in translation.
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Dearest Brother Barry,admin said:
May the God of all comfort, comfort you in your hour of distress. May He give you peace of mind and joy of heart. Be not perplexed and keep your shirt on.
I didn't translate anything as "are sold". I asked our hero, who has claimed to have been raised by his mother with Greek and Latin, to translate the following sentence from English to Greek and Latin.
- Easter bunnies are sold in Greece.
- Happy Easter.
See my previous post. Read carefully after taking a deep breath and 3 hours of prayer for righteous discernment.
Would you like to take a stab at it since you also claim to have been trained in the original languages while in seminary. Please translate the following sentences into Greek and Hebrew:
- Easter bunnies are sold in Greece.
- Happy Easter.
And since you want to know "why" I chose "are sold" instead of "are for sale", I wanted to make sure our hero wasn't just cutting and pasting answers, that he actually translated instead of using his Google button.
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Mitex said:
I thought that was your task. You're the Bible translator, allegedly.
Although from what I've seen, you don't appear to be very good at it. Do you have a day job?
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I know three languages English, Spanish and Polish. I don't know Greek, Hebrew or Latin. Latin I can figure out somethings via my Spanish background, Hebrew I have no chance at all, as for Greek and most other languages i can understand the argument presented by competent and honest translators without an axe to grind.admin said:
I'm more than capable of an honest discussion. I just haven't found anyone in this thread willing to join in an honest discussion. All I get is hot air from you and your ilk.
Of course you won't. Because it would expose your position on the word Easter and Passover.
I always wonder about people telling me how to do things when they refuse to do it themselves. I'm sure there are thousands of people much more capable than I am. Here we have Barry telling people that only those with MDiv degrees should be missionaries. We have Barry with his "expert seminary training" with abilities to handle the original languages sitting Stateside twiddling his thumbs where they have 200+ English versions telling me why I shouldn't be on a translating committee in Poland. I'll tell you what Barry, sell all that you have except the clothes on your back and come to Poland and take my place. I'll go back to the U.S.A. and twiddle my thumbs like you. Until you are willing to take my place and show the world how it should really be done, excuse my French: Shut your trap!
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Now is the time on the FFF when we juxtapose . . .
. . . and . . .
Although, by his own admission, Mitex isn't competent to tell if anyone's position is "exposed" or not.
Talk about zeal, but not according to knowlege . . . LOL!
Mitex said:
. . . and . . .
Although, by his own admission, Mitex isn't competent to tell if anyone's position is "exposed" or not.
Talk about zeal, but not according to knowlege . . . LOL!
Heh...heh...heh...
Since you know neither Greek nor Hebrew... don't ask any of us for a translation. You wouldn't know what to do with it. It is just posturing and bloviating.
Please explain. There is no word for "Easter" in Biblical Hebrew. I do not translate Modern Hebrew. I went to Google translate and it serves up a different word for "Easter" than any found in a Biblical Hebrew Lexicon. It does not mean "passover."
So, please, explain why "Easter" is so precious to you. Why do you fight so hard to try to convince us that it is an appropriate word and why it should have been retained in your Polish translation?
... and "yes," ANYONE involved in translation work OUGHT to have, at the minimum, a working knowledge in the original languages. That usually involves a seminary education.
Since you know neither Greek nor Hebrew... don't ask any of us for a translation. You wouldn't know what to do with it. It is just posturing and bloviating.
Mitex said:
Please explain. There is no word for "Easter" in Biblical Hebrew. I do not translate Modern Hebrew. I went to Google translate and it serves up a different word for "Easter" than any found in a Biblical Hebrew Lexicon. It does not mean "passover."
So, please, explain why "Easter" is so precious to you. Why do you fight so hard to try to convince us that it is an appropriate word and why it should have been retained in your Polish translation?
... and "yes," ANYONE involved in translation work OUGHT to have, at the minimum, a working knowledge in the original languages. That usually involves a seminary education.
Ransom said:
Exactly!
Mitex said:
Have you demonstrated that the makers of the KJV [or a Church of England prelate] did not have an axe to grind in some cases, including at Acts 12:4?
Were the makers of the KJV completely unbiased without no leanings to Church of England doctrinal views and to the divine right of kings' view of James I?
While the pre-1611 English Bibles sometimes used "Easter" with the meaning "passover," it has not been clearly demonstrated that was the intended meaning in the 1611 KJV. There is historical evidence that suggests that a prelate inserted "Easter" in the 1611 KJV with a different intended meaning.
There is sound historical evidence from the 1600's that indicates that the majority of the KJV translators may not have been responsible for the rendering “Easter†at Acts 12:4. Instead they likely supported the Geneva Bible’s rendering “Passover.†Just as the KJV translators changed the Bishops’ Bible’s two other uses of “Easter†at John 11:55 to “Passover,†they may have also changed this third use at Acts 12:4. While Tyndale and Coverdale had used the rendering “Easter†several times for the Jewish Passover, the later English translators had increasingly changed this rendering to “Passover.“
In his 1672 book based on an earlier manuscript by Henry Jessey, Edward Whiston indicated that a great prelate, the chief supervisor of the KJV, inserted “Easter†back into the text of the KJV at this verse as one of the 14 changes he was said to have made (Life and Death of Mr. Henry Jessey, p. 49). In his 1648 sermon entitled “Truth and Love,“ Thomas Hill also noted that Acts 12:4 “was another place that was altered (as you have heard) to keep up that holy time of Easter, as they would think it†(Six Sermons, p. 25). In his 1727 book, John Currie maintained that at “Acts 12:4 in which place we have Easter, whereas it is the Passover according to the Original, this might be to favor their holy time of Easter, or an Easter communion†(Jus Populi Divinum, p. 38). Was the goal of inserting the rendering “Easter†back into the text at this verse in order to present faithfully the meaning of the Greek word in English or was it intended to give the readers a different meaning?
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Mitex, Where in ancient Greek of the first century did you get this word? It wouldn't be something other than Koine Greek, would it? Remember my third stipulation?
I looked for this word in the following Greek lexicons and dictionaries that I have on my desk.
Friberg Greek Lexicon,
Louw-Nida Lexicon,
LS Greek Lexicon,
Thayer Greek Lexicon,
VGNT Greek Dictionary,
Gingrich Greek Lexicon,
Strongs Greek Dictionary,
Dictionary of Biblical Languages,
An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon,
You will have to prove to me that you got this from some ancient Greek text (time of Christ) before I will do any more on this.
The fact that it is not in any of my Greek Lexicons or dictionaries about nails it.
When I didn't find it in Thayers I checked in Gingrich thinking this was some non scriptural word and it was not even in Gingrich, I smell a rat, a big fat one.
So Mitex, what do you have to say for yourself now?
κουνέλια, really?
I looked for this word in the following Greek lexicons and dictionaries that I have on my desk.
Friberg Greek Lexicon,
Louw-Nida Lexicon,
LS Greek Lexicon,
Thayer Greek Lexicon,
VGNT Greek Dictionary,
Gingrich Greek Lexicon,
Strongs Greek Dictionary,
Dictionary of Biblical Languages,
An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon,
You will have to prove to me that you got this from some ancient Greek text (time of Christ) before I will do any more on this.
The fact that it is not in any of my Greek Lexicons or dictionaries about nails it.
When I didn't find it in Thayers I checked in Gingrich thinking this was some non scriptural word and it was not even in Gingrich, I smell a rat, a big fat one.
So Mitex, what do you have to say for yourself now?
κουνέλια, really?
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Since I couldn't find your second word I wasted my time on this.
Mitex, just for you. I like reading Lexicons, it brings the languages to life.
Sometimes too literal a translation obscures the real meaning.
4.27 πάσχαc n: a specially selected lamb (or a collective for all such lambs) killed and eaten during the festival commemorating the departure of Israel from Egypt—‘Passover lamb.’ ᾗ ἔδει θύεσθαι τὸ πάσχα ‘when the Passover lamb/lambs had to be killed’ Lk 22:7.
The term πάσχα (a borrowing from Hebrew) has three different meanings which refer to three different aspects of the Passover. In a context which speaks of ‘the Passover taking place’ (Mt 26:2), the meaning is the festival (51.6). With a term such as ἑτοιμάζειν ‘to prepare’ (Mt 26:19), the term πάσχα means the Passover meal, that is to say, ‘to prepare the Passover meal’ (51.7). But with a term meaning ‘to kill’ or ‘to sacrifice’ (Lk 22:7), the meaning is the Passover lamb. These different meanings in Greek reflect similar uses in Hebrew.
It is often impossible, however, to use a phrase such as ‘Passover lamb,’ since a literal rendering may suggest ‘a lamb that passes over’ or ‘a lamb that someone has passed over,’ either in the sense of ‘ridden over’ or ‘neglected.’ It is therefore necessary in many languages to expand the phrase ‘the Passover lamb’ to read ‘the lamb that is eaten at the Passover Festival’ or ‘the lamb associated with the Festival that celebrates the passing over.’ It may even be necessary to expand the phrase ‘passing over’ to refer specifically to the passing over of the angel of death, and in certain instances one cannot even employ a literal rendering such as ‘passing over,’ since this might mean merely ‘flying above.’ Therefore, it may be necessary to use an expression roughly equivalent to ‘passing by.’ It may, however, be better to use a short, though somewhat obscure, expression in the text and provide a full explanation in a marginal note or glossary.
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.
Mitex, just for you. I like reading Lexicons, it brings the languages to life.
Sometimes too literal a translation obscures the real meaning.
4.27 πάσχαc n: a specially selected lamb (or a collective for all such lambs) killed and eaten during the festival commemorating the departure of Israel from Egypt—‘Passover lamb.’ ᾗ ἔδει θύεσθαι τὸ πάσχα ‘when the Passover lamb/lambs had to be killed’ Lk 22:7.
The term πάσχα (a borrowing from Hebrew) has three different meanings which refer to three different aspects of the Passover. In a context which speaks of ‘the Passover taking place’ (Mt 26:2), the meaning is the festival (51.6). With a term such as ἑτοιμάζειν ‘to prepare’ (Mt 26:19), the term πάσχα means the Passover meal, that is to say, ‘to prepare the Passover meal’ (51.7). But with a term meaning ‘to kill’ or ‘to sacrifice’ (Lk 22:7), the meaning is the Passover lamb. These different meanings in Greek reflect similar uses in Hebrew.
It is often impossible, however, to use a phrase such as ‘Passover lamb,’ since a literal rendering may suggest ‘a lamb that passes over’ or ‘a lamb that someone has passed over,’ either in the sense of ‘ridden over’ or ‘neglected.’ It is therefore necessary in many languages to expand the phrase ‘the Passover lamb’ to read ‘the lamb that is eaten at the Passover Festival’ or ‘the lamb associated with the Festival that celebrates the passing over.’ It may even be necessary to expand the phrase ‘passing over’ to refer specifically to the passing over of the angel of death, and in certain instances one cannot even employ a literal rendering such as ‘passing over,’ since this might mean merely ‘flying above.’ Therefore, it may be necessary to use an expression roughly equivalent to ‘passing by.’ It may, however, be better to use a short, though somewhat obscure, expression in the text and provide a full explanation in a marginal note or glossary.
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.
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Here is the other two ways pascha is used.
51.6 πάσχαa n: the Jewish festival commemorating the deliverance of Jews from Egypt—‘Passover festival, Passover.’ ἔστιν δὲ συνήθεια ὑμῖν ἵνα ἕνα ἀπολύσω ὑμῖν ἐν τῷ πάσχα ‘according to your custom, I always set free a prisoner for you during the Passover’ Jn 18:39. In some languages the term πάσχα has been borrowed in one form or another, but frequently it is necessary to have some qualifying statement to identify this festival, for example, ‘a festival to celebrate the passing over of the angel’ or ‘a festival to celebrate deliverance from Egypt.’
51.7 πάσχαb n: a Passover meal eaten in connection with the Passover festival (see 51.6)—‘Passover meal.’ καὶ ἡτοίμασαν τὸ πάσχα ‘and they prepared the Passover meal’ or ‘they prepared the food to be eaten in celebrating the Passover’ Mt 26:19.
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.
51.6 πάσχαa n: the Jewish festival commemorating the deliverance of Jews from Egypt—‘Passover festival, Passover.’ ἔστιν δὲ συνήθεια ὑμῖν ἵνα ἕνα ἀπολύσω ὑμῖν ἐν τῷ πάσχα ‘according to your custom, I always set free a prisoner for you during the Passover’ Jn 18:39. In some languages the term πάσχα has been borrowed in one form or another, but frequently it is necessary to have some qualifying statement to identify this festival, for example, ‘a festival to celebrate the passing over of the angel’ or ‘a festival to celebrate deliverance from Egypt.’
51.7 πάσχαb n: a Passover meal eaten in connection with the Passover festival (see 51.6)—‘Passover meal.’ καὶ ἡτοίμασαν τὸ πάσχα ‘and they prepared the Passover meal’ or ‘they prepared the food to be eaten in celebrating the Passover’ Mt 26:19.
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.
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This is passover in the OT.
1786a פֶּסַח (pesaḥ) Passover.
פֶּסַח (pesaḥ). Passover. There are three areas, which one must investigate, to put together the data in the Bible on Passover. These are: (1) the historical setting for Passover, Ex 12; (2) references to texts that spell out the procedures in the observance of Passover, Num 28:16–25; Lev 23:5–8; Deut 16:1–8; (3) historical texts that narrate the celebration of a particular Passover, Num 9:1–14; Josh 5:10–12 (at Gilgal): II Chr 30:1–27 (celebrated by Hezekiah, but interestingly no parallel to this in Kgs); II Kgs 23:21–23; II Chr 35:1–19 (celebrated by Josiah, and note the amplification in the Chronicles account); Ezr 6:19–22.
The name “Passover†is derived from pāsaḥ which some think means “to pass (over)†(BDB, p. 820). There are four instances of this. (1) Ex 12:13, “When I see the blood I will ‘pass’ (ûpāsaḥtî) over you.†(2) Ex 12:23, “The LORD will ‘pass’ through (ʿābar) … and the Lord will ‘pass’ (ûpāsaḥ) over the door.†(3) Ex 12:27, “It is the sacrifice of the Lord’s passover who ‘passed’ (pāsaḥ) over the houses of the children of Israel.†(4) Isa 31:5, “The Lord of hosts will protect Jerusalem (gānan)’ he will protect (gānan) and deliver (nāṣal) it. He will pass over (pāsaḥ) and deliver (mālaṭ) it.â€
In addition to this etymology for pesaḥ (i.e. the merciful passing over of a destructive power), several others have been suggested. (1) It is to be linked with the root pāsaḥ II, “to limp, hobble,†and thus Passover describes a special cultic dance. (2) Some have connected pesaḥ with the Akkadian verb pasâhu, “to appease, assuage†(a deity) in ritual. (3) The interpretation of others suggests that pāsaḥ in the above four passages means not “to pass over†per se but rather “to defend, protect.†The LORD will protectively cover the houses of the Israelites and will not suffer the destroyer to enter (Ex 12:23b, and cf. I Cor 10:10; Heb 11:28). It is the destroyer who seeks to enter the houses and the LORD rebuffs him, standing guard by the houses of his people. The blood is a sign to the LORD. “When I see the blood (cf. Gen 9:16, “when I see the rainbowâ€) I will ‘protect’ you†(not the negative idea, “I will pass over/omit you†(Glasson, Weiss). (4) A final suggestion is to relate pesaḥ to an Egyptian word meaning “stroke, blow†and thus the Passover is the blow of the tenth plague in which the Lord struck the firstborn of Egypt. The traditional etymology and (3) seem the most plausible.
According to Ex 12, the Passover was to be celebrated at the full moon in the first month of the year (Abib = March/April). On the tenth day of the month every family chose a one-year-old lamb, a male, and one without blemish. This lamb was killed at the twilight on the 14th, and its blood was sprinkled over the two doorposts and the lintel of the house where it was eaten. On the following day, the 15th, the feast of unleavened bread began. Note that it is a domestic ceremony originally without reference to any central sanctuary or priestly involvement. Interestingly, it was very advantageous for the Israelites to leave Egypt on the night of a full moon.
The critical theory regarding the relationship between Passover and Unleavened Bread is as follows. Originally, both were separate feasts, Passover a nomadic shepherd’s rite, and Unleavened Bread a Canaanite agricultural feast. Subsequently the two were historicized (by being connected with the Exodus) and coalesced, or reestablished (Kraus), in the time of Josiah as a consequence of the centralization of worship. This, of course, is speculation. Hezekiah celebrated a great Passover (II Chr 30, where it is also called the Feast of Unleavened Bread). Solomon celebrated the three annual feasts (Unleavened Bread, Weeks, and Tabernacles, II Chr 8:13). The silence of the books of Samuel and Kings is not a valid argument against the early date of the Passover. None of the prophets except Ezekiel (only Ezk 45:21) mention either the Passover or the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Even Jeremiah passes over Josiah’s great celebration in silence, a silence that proves nothing.
Jesus celebrated this feast (Mt 26:2, 18). Christ is the ‘Passover’ for the Christian (I Cor 5:7 and also Jn 1:20, I Pt 1:19).
Bibliography: DeVaux, R., AI, pp. 484–92. Glasson, T., “The ‘Passover,’ A Misnomer: The Meaning of the Verb PASACH,†JTS 10:79–84. Haran, Menahem, “The Passover Sacrifice,†Supp VT 23:86–116. Kraus, H. J., Worship in Israel, Richardson, Richmond, Virginia: John Knox, 1966, pp. 45–55. TWB, p. 163. Weiss, R., “pÅ¡ḥml ḥws,†Les̆oneˊû 27:125–30. Jocz, J., “Passover,†in ZPEB, IV, pp. 605–11.
V.P.H.
1787 פָּסַח (pāsaḥ) II, limp.
Hamilton, V. P. (1999). 1786 פָּסַח. (R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer Jr., & B. K. Waltke, Eds.)Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Chicago: Moody Press.
1786a פֶּסַח (pesaḥ) Passover.
פֶּסַח (pesaḥ). Passover. There are three areas, which one must investigate, to put together the data in the Bible on Passover. These are: (1) the historical setting for Passover, Ex 12; (2) references to texts that spell out the procedures in the observance of Passover, Num 28:16–25; Lev 23:5–8; Deut 16:1–8; (3) historical texts that narrate the celebration of a particular Passover, Num 9:1–14; Josh 5:10–12 (at Gilgal): II Chr 30:1–27 (celebrated by Hezekiah, but interestingly no parallel to this in Kgs); II Kgs 23:21–23; II Chr 35:1–19 (celebrated by Josiah, and note the amplification in the Chronicles account); Ezr 6:19–22.
The name “Passover†is derived from pāsaḥ which some think means “to pass (over)†(BDB, p. 820). There are four instances of this. (1) Ex 12:13, “When I see the blood I will ‘pass’ (ûpāsaḥtî) over you.†(2) Ex 12:23, “The LORD will ‘pass’ through (ʿābar) … and the Lord will ‘pass’ (ûpāsaḥ) over the door.†(3) Ex 12:27, “It is the sacrifice of the Lord’s passover who ‘passed’ (pāsaḥ) over the houses of the children of Israel.†(4) Isa 31:5, “The Lord of hosts will protect Jerusalem (gānan)’ he will protect (gānan) and deliver (nāṣal) it. He will pass over (pāsaḥ) and deliver (mālaṭ) it.â€
In addition to this etymology for pesaḥ (i.e. the merciful passing over of a destructive power), several others have been suggested. (1) It is to be linked with the root pāsaḥ II, “to limp, hobble,†and thus Passover describes a special cultic dance. (2) Some have connected pesaḥ with the Akkadian verb pasâhu, “to appease, assuage†(a deity) in ritual. (3) The interpretation of others suggests that pāsaḥ in the above four passages means not “to pass over†per se but rather “to defend, protect.†The LORD will protectively cover the houses of the Israelites and will not suffer the destroyer to enter (Ex 12:23b, and cf. I Cor 10:10; Heb 11:28). It is the destroyer who seeks to enter the houses and the LORD rebuffs him, standing guard by the houses of his people. The blood is a sign to the LORD. “When I see the blood (cf. Gen 9:16, “when I see the rainbowâ€) I will ‘protect’ you†(not the negative idea, “I will pass over/omit you†(Glasson, Weiss). (4) A final suggestion is to relate pesaḥ to an Egyptian word meaning “stroke, blow†and thus the Passover is the blow of the tenth plague in which the Lord struck the firstborn of Egypt. The traditional etymology and (3) seem the most plausible.
According to Ex 12, the Passover was to be celebrated at the full moon in the first month of the year (Abib = March/April). On the tenth day of the month every family chose a one-year-old lamb, a male, and one without blemish. This lamb was killed at the twilight on the 14th, and its blood was sprinkled over the two doorposts and the lintel of the house where it was eaten. On the following day, the 15th, the feast of unleavened bread began. Note that it is a domestic ceremony originally without reference to any central sanctuary or priestly involvement. Interestingly, it was very advantageous for the Israelites to leave Egypt on the night of a full moon.
The critical theory regarding the relationship between Passover and Unleavened Bread is as follows. Originally, both were separate feasts, Passover a nomadic shepherd’s rite, and Unleavened Bread a Canaanite agricultural feast. Subsequently the two were historicized (by being connected with the Exodus) and coalesced, or reestablished (Kraus), in the time of Josiah as a consequence of the centralization of worship. This, of course, is speculation. Hezekiah celebrated a great Passover (II Chr 30, where it is also called the Feast of Unleavened Bread). Solomon celebrated the three annual feasts (Unleavened Bread, Weeks, and Tabernacles, II Chr 8:13). The silence of the books of Samuel and Kings is not a valid argument against the early date of the Passover. None of the prophets except Ezekiel (only Ezk 45:21) mention either the Passover or the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Even Jeremiah passes over Josiah’s great celebration in silence, a silence that proves nothing.
Jesus celebrated this feast (Mt 26:2, 18). Christ is the ‘Passover’ for the Christian (I Cor 5:7 and also Jn 1:20, I Pt 1:19).
Bibliography: DeVaux, R., AI, pp. 484–92. Glasson, T., “The ‘Passover,’ A Misnomer: The Meaning of the Verb PASACH,†JTS 10:79–84. Haran, Menahem, “The Passover Sacrifice,†Supp VT 23:86–116. Kraus, H. J., Worship in Israel, Richardson, Richmond, Virginia: John Knox, 1966, pp. 45–55. TWB, p. 163. Weiss, R., “pÅ¡ḥml ḥws,†Les̆oneˊû 27:125–30. Jocz, J., “Passover,†in ZPEB, IV, pp. 605–11.
V.P.H.
1787 פָּסַח (pāsaḥ) II, limp.
Hamilton, V. P. (1999). 1786 פָּסַח. (R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer Jr., & B. K. Waltke, Eds.)Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Chicago: Moody Press.
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Your task was quite simple for anyone that grew up learning Greek and Latin from their mother, translate the simple sentences:bgwilkinson said:
From Greek into English:
•Πάσχα κουνέλια είναι προς πώληση στην Ελλάδα.
•Καλό Πάσχα!
From English into Greek and Latin:
•Easter bunnies are sold in Greece.
•Happy Easter!
You have proved to me that you do not know Greek or Latin. Your alleged ability in Greek and Latin, which you supposedly learned from your mother, has been exposed for what it is, a sham. Lesson learned.
As for our Reader, please take this lesson to heart. These birds pretend to know enough Hebrew and Greek to call into question our English Scriptures and then claim that there are errors in any given book, chapter, verse or word. Beware!
Here are a few of their quotes:
"'Easter' always meant a one day Christian festival. It never mean[sic] a seven-day Jewish celebration."
"Easter is not Pascha and Pascha is not Easter."
"The word Easter is literally plastered all over the store at Easter time." - To which it may be replied: "Καλό Πάσχα" (kalo pasxa/pascha) is plastered all over the stores in Greece at Easter time.
"...the KJV error of Easter"
"Easter is not Pascha. Pascha is not Easter. They are two distinctly different things."
"Easter is an error. The OED shows that many Bibles perpetuated the error. It does not have any secular usages. It is all related to mistranslations."
"Tyndale does not use the word passover in the version I have. He has instead the incorrect translation of ester. WRONG"
"'Easter' is not an archaic word. It was the wrong word."
"...Tyndale got it wrong 22 times. So, what is one more error?"
"'Easter' is not an archaic word. It was the wrong word."
"'Easter' was not a Jewish festival, ever."
http://www.fundamentalforums.org/bible-versions/the-imperfect-king-james-bible/msg56887/#msg56887
The definition of Easter has changed over time and context. Having various meanings: 1. passover (obsolete), 2. an annual Christian festival in commemoration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 3. the period between Good Friday and Easter Monday 4. an adjective to describe bunnies, chocolate, etc. 5. etc.
Semantic anachronism is when a late or modern use of a word is read back into earlier literature. Semantic anachronism would be interpreting the meaning of a 17th English word by an appeal to the meaning of the twenty-first century English word. Interpreting the meaning and use of Easter by modern use and forcing that meaning into the English Scriptures, i.e. into earlier literature.
Semantic anachronism is what Barry and bgwilkinson do when they force the modern meaning of Easter into the word Easter as found in early English Bibles and the AV in Acts 12:4.
This would apply in Greek as well, trying to force the modern use of the Greek word Πάσχα (e.g Καλό Πάσχα!) into the the word Πάσχα as found in the Greek Scriptures.
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Have you demonstrated that you don't have an axe to grind with this question?logos1560 said:
Are you completely unbiased? Are you unbiased without leanings to Baptist doctrinal views?
So, Barry and his ilk were wrong for saying that "Easter" never had the meaning of Passover. Just as I said.
Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishop's, etc. most certainly did use Easter several times for the Jewish Passover and they were NOT wrong for doing so. Barry and his ilk have wrongly accused the translators of error. Their semantic anachronism was noted and reproved.
One cannot insert the word Easter "back into the text" if it was already there! See Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishop's of which the AV was a revision. Guess what? In the process of translating suggestions are made, words are used and then later edited, sometimes multiple times, and editors on the translating committee make changes. Are you saying that the translators on the NKJV and NIV were always 100% in agreement? Do you agree with yourself 100% of the time?
When you catch up please let me know. When you do please get off the rabbit trail and deal with the following issues:
The Scriptures are properly defined as a reference to the anthology of Canonical books recognized by a consensus of Spirit filled believers as the very word of God in written form true in all its parts – it is perfect, pure, infallible, etc. and the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. Or in other words the Scriptures are a reference to the entire body of canonical Jewish or Christian writings which are and have been properly regarded by believers as divinely inspired, holy and authoritative.
The Scriptures that Timothy had from a child (2Tim 3:15-17) were NOT the autographs, but they were given by inspiration of God. This in direct contradiction to the false statement that "only the autographs are given by inspiration of God".
The Scriptures that Jesus read from (Luke 4) do not match jot and tittle with any extant manuscript, yet those Scriptures were given by inspiration of God. This in direct contradiction to the false statements and innuendo that "only that which matches the originals can be considered given by inspiration of God".
All men are commanded to search the Scriptures (John 5:39). This is only possible if the Scriptures are available (extant) today. Scriptures given by inspiration of God are extant today and readily available in every major language of the world.
God's intent was to have His word translated - the translated word has the same authority and power as the original. The King's speech is still the King's speech even in translation.
The phrase “given by inspiration of God†defines the character of all Scripture and is not limited to the autograph, or the originals, but to all extant Scripture in any generation or language. You can read the extant Scriptures with the confidence that you are reading the very words of God in the form that God wants you to have today!
Mitex said:
You are on the rabbit trails, demanding that your non-scriptural opinions and fallacies be blindly accepted.
Mitex said:
Your definition is not proper and sound since you insert non-scriptural claims into it. The Scriptures do not teach that the opinions of "a consensus of Spirit-filled believers" determines what is the Scriptures.
While the Scriptures given to the prophets and apostles were and are 100% perfect, pure, and infallible, the Scriptures do not actually support your use of fallacies concerning translations as supposedly being sound or scriptural.
You have failed to demonstrate that the Scriptures teach that ALL copies of the original language Scriptures were given by inspiration of God and that all those copies are 100% perfect, pure, and infallible without any errors introduced by men.
You have failed to demonstrate that the Scriptures teach that ALL translations of the original language Scriptures were or are given by inspiration of God and that all those translations are 100% perfect, pure, and infallible without any errors introduced by men whether translators, editors, or printers.
Mitex said:
Mitex, you use the false arguments [fallacies such as begging the question] and made false accusations.
The Scriptures do not state that ALL copies of the original language Scriptures were made by a process of inspiration or were given by inspiration of God. You are improperly reading your incorrect, subjective opinion into verses that do not actually state what you claim. 2 Timothy 3:16 refers to the matter of how the Scriptures were and are given, but it does not assert that copies were made by inspiration as you try to assume or speculate. Your speculation that copies are made by inspiration of God is in contradiction to other scriptural truths or instructions such as those that would directly relate to copying. Those verses (Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32, Prov. 30:6, Rev. 22:18-19) that warn against adding to and taking away from the Scriptures would clearly and directly relate to the doctrine of preservation and to the making of copies of the original language Scriptures.
Mitex said:
You have not proven what you claim. You may be merely assuming that the Scriptures that Jesus read as translated in the KJV do not match "jot and tittle with any extant manuscript" since you do not read Hebrew and have not examined all Hebrew manuscripts. With the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls, more Hebrew OT manuscripts were found that give evidence of a Hebrew Old Testament text that differs in some places from the later Masoretic manuscripts and that may be in agreement with what Jesus read.
Mitex said:
You have not made a sound, scriptural case for your opinion concerning translations.
2 Timothy 3:16 does not say that all Scripture is translated by inspiration of God, which is in effect what you are trying to suggest.
Mitex said:
You have failed to make any sound case for trying to suggest that "given by inspiration of God" is supposedly the definition and process by which ALL copies of the original language Scriptures were made and by which ALL translations were made.
When readers read a translation with errors in it [even if the words were supposedly introduced by the printers instead of the translators], how is that "reading the very words of God"?
Mitex, according to your use of fallacies, readers are merely to assume blindly that their copy of a translation is 100% perfect, pure, and infallible regardless of the fact that their copy may have errors introduced by men whether printers or translators. It is a good thing that those readers of the 1631 edition of the KJV printed by the king's printer in London did not hold your modern-day opinion.
Exodus 20:14
Thou shalt commit adultery {1631 London}
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bgwilkinson said:
We sure do have lively discussions.
Now some thoughts.
I talked to you about meds, if you don't take them maybe you should go to a Doctor and get some help.
I have been praying for you and your translation work that the LORD would use you and the WORD in Polish to see the body of Christ edified and multiplied.
Mitex the following is why I am very worried for you and your family.
Mitex said,
"I always wonder about people telling me how to do things when they refuse to do it themselves. I'm sure there are thousands of people much more capable than I am. Here we have Barry telling people that only those with MDiv degrees should be missionaries. We have Barry with his "expert seminary training" with abilities to handle the original languages sitting Stateside twiddling his thumbs where they have 200+ English versions telling me why I shouldn't be on a translating committee in Poland. I'll tell you what Barry, sell all that you have except the clothes on your back and come to Poland and take my place. I'll go back to the U.S.A. and twiddle my thumbs like you. Until you are willing to take my place and show the world how it should really be done, excuse my French: Shut your trap!"
To me this indicates a spirit of bitterness that has been allowed to grow over the years. People that respond like this are hurting people. Something is really eating at them. You have been in my prayers a lot lately.
I think you resent being away from home serving in Poland, self pity and bitterness is eating away at you as evidenced by the intemperate and vitriolic words you use and statements you make.
As we have been going around and around over the use of Easter in English Bibles, I began to wonder if the venom vitriol and acidic language you direct at those of us who disagree with you might represent your true feelings for your fellow translators who rejected your preferred Polish word for Easter (is it wielkanocy, Great Night) and instead used a transliteration of pascha, (Paschy). Is that it? Maybe there is much more you haven't shared.
I never gave my opinion on it before but I will now. I believe it is always better to translate then to transliterate. When words are transliterated the user has a tendency to redefine them according to their own religious bias.
Thus the Church of England can say baptism is sprinkling. They could not have done that if it had been translated, immersion. As Baptists using a State Government Bible we always have to explain that the Greek means immersion and then use other scripture to prove it, all that is unnecessary if James' translators would have translated instead of transliterating.
Now my call on the translation. Wielkanocy would be better than pascha as it refers to the passover night.
You see I do agree with you.
Here is an additional possibility from Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A.
"51.6 πάσχαa n: the Jewish festival commemorating the deliverance of Jews from Egypt—‘Passover festival, Passover.’ ἔστιν δὲ συνήθεια ὑμῖν ἵνα ἕνα ἀπολύσω ὑμῖν ἐν τῷ πάσχα ‘according to your custom, I always set free a prisoner for you during the Passover’ Jn 18:39. In some languages the term πάσχα has been borrowed in one form or another, but frequently it is necessary to have some qualifying statement to identify this festival, for example, ‘a festival to celebrate the passing over of the angel’ or ‘a festival to celebrate deliverance from Egypt.’"
Of course you would need Polish words indicating passing over.
I have chided you several times to get you to study Translators to the Reader, by Miles Smith.
To me this represents the best way to do a translation and results in an eclectic text with the best readings from multiple sources. A good example is Isa 7:14. If they had followed the Hebrew they very easily could have rendered young woman instead of virgin. Here they were corrected by the virgo of the Latin Vulgate and the παρθένος of the LXX. In general I agree with the KJV translators philosophies and methods.
I am diametrically opposed to the rules forced on the translators by the state, the fourteen rules and the additional emendations applied by Bancroft as finishing touches to support the State Church and Divine Right of Kings. These need to be backed out of the text where known. Bancroft was a wily old politician masquerading as a Bishop.
State government involvement is anathema to any honest Baptist.
I have no interest in doing translations of words not found in scripture. Especially modern Greek mixed with Koine.
I will with-hold comment on other things you have said in the spirit of kindness and brotherly love.
I have no desire to make your work and your life more difficult by raising your blood pressure.
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Hi,
After a very sensible sharing from Mitex.
Nominated for the Psychobabble Award.
After a very sensible sharing from Mitex.
bgwilkinson said:
Nominated for the Psychobabble Award.