Interesting reformed church visit today, a report card.

[ALAYMAN]

Alayboy and I share a birthday (August 27th) so we spent this weekend with him. He has attended the (UC) campus church on and off but doesn’t really like the vibe there (evangelical but quite “contemporary” in numerous ways he doesn’t prefer).

So this morning we went to a nearby (reformed) church, which I had scouted out as suitable for a visit. As it turns out (I did not know beforehand when looking where to go) the church is pastored by Ken Ham’s brother (Steve). I thought Ken was averse to that theological (reformed) framework, and as conversation with a gal at our table in Sunday School revealed, I was right. She works at Answers in Genesis (founded by Ken Ham and a huge finance support for The Ark Encounter and The Creation Museum in Kentucky), and has been attending Steve’s church (Grace and Truth) the last 4 years, and said that theological difference was a point of contention among them. Pastor Steve, via an illustration about his family during the sermon said something similar about his parents non-reformed beliefs and practices.

The Sunday School teacher taught the class of probably 30 people out of the book Acts, and it was sufficiently meaty, but he broke from the exposition at one point to illustrate the doctrines of Grace via the TULIP acrostic (at which time he momentarily forgot what the “L” stood for, lol). This seemed a bit over the top to me, but the message was otherwise good.

The pastor’s sermon was from 1 John 2:27-29 and was about abiding in Christ. It was likewise filled with grace-filled exhortation to look to Christ for our strength and example. It was chock full of supporting references and never once did I hear “close your Bibles and listen to me”, <ahem, binaca chug>.

Lastly, in my concern for the reformed emphasis I wondered how much that impacted their method of evangelistic appeal. After the sermon they closed with a song (most of the music was via Getty music) and then a prayer. When the song finished the semi-pelegian in me wondered if they ever “give an invitation” of any sort, when to me very pleasant surprise Pastor Steve came back to the stage and invited any person who doubted, or knew they were not (abiding) in Christ to come after the close of service and talk with any of the (5) elders. I was sold, ad the gospel saturation and Bible centered exposition was satisfying.

Please pray with me that Alayboy would plant himself in such a Christ-centered healthy congregation for his final collegiate year of experience.

 

[AverageJoe]

I will definitely be praying for him to find where God would have him, Calvinist or not. The point is that Jesus Christ the ONLY one that we can turn to for salvation.

 

[Ransom]

The pastor’s sermon was from 1 John 2:27-29

At least it wasn't 1 John 3:16. Right, abcaines?

 

[abcaines]

At least it wasn't 1 John 3:16. Right, abcaines?

I'd have been excommunicated and burned at the stake!

 

[abcaines]

Alayboy and I share a birthday (August 27th) so we spent this weekend with him. He has attended the (UC) campus church on and off but doesn’t really like the vibe there (evangelical but quite “contemporary” in numerous ways he doesn’t prefer).

So this morning we went to a nearby (reformed) church, which I had scouted out as suitable for a visit. As it turns out (I did not know beforehand when looking where to go) the church is pastored by Ken Ham’s brother (Steve). I thought Ken was averse to that theological (reformed) framework, and as conversation with a gal at our table in Sunday School revealed, I was right. She works at Answers in Genesis (founded by Ken Ham and a huge finance support for The Ark Encounter and The Creation Museum in Kentucky), and has been attending Steve’s church (Grace and Truth) the last 4 years, and said that theological difference was a point of contention among them. Pastor Steve, via an illustration about his family during the sermon said something similar about his parents non-reformed beliefs and practices.

The Sunday School teacher taught the class of probably 30 people out of the book Acts, and it was sufficiently meaty, but he broke from the exposition at one point to illustrate the doctrines of Grace via the TULIP acrostic (at which time he momentarily forgot what the “L” stood for, lol). This seemed a bit over the top to me, but the message was otherwise good.

The pastor’s sermon was from 1 John 2:27-29 and was about abiding in Christ. It was likewise filled with grace-filled exhortation to look to Christ for our strength and example. It was chock full of supporting references and never once did I hear “close your Bibles and listen to me”, <ahem, binaca chug>.

Lastly, in my concern for the reformed emphasis I wondered how much that impacted their method of evangelistic appeal. After the sermon they closed with a song (most of the music was via Getty music) and then a prayer. When the song finished the semi-pelegian in me wondered if they ever “give an invitation” of any sort, when to me very pleasant surprise Pastor Steve came back to the stage and invited any person who doubted, or knew they were not (abiding) in Christ to come after the close of service and talk with any of the (5) elders. I was sold, ad the gospel saturation and Bible centered exposition was satisfying.

Please pray with me that Alayboy would plant himself in such a Christ-centered healthy congregation for his final collegiate year of experience.

It must be sound teaching. The Aussie brogue ensures it.

 

[Ekklesian]

Lastly, in my concern for the reformed emphasis I wondered how much that impacted their method of evangelistic appeal.

The elect can do no other.

Jhn 7:38-39 - He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Luk 4:18 - The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised...

Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[biscuit1953]

Alayboy and I share a birthday (August 27th) so we spent this weekend with him. He has attended the (UC) campus church on and off but doesn’t really like the vibe there (evangelical but quite “contemporary” in numerous ways he doesn’t prefer).

So this morning we went to a nearby (reformed) church, which I had scouted out as suitable for a visit. As it turns out (I did not know beforehand when looking where to go) the church is pastored by Ken Ham’s brother (Steve). I thought Ken was averse to that theological (reformed) framework, and as conversation with a gal at our table in Sunday School revealed, I was right. She works at Answers in Genesis (founded by Ken Ham and a huge finance support for The Ark Encounter and The Creation Museum in Kentucky), and has been attending Steve’s church (Grace and Truth) the last 4 years, and said that theological difference was a point of contention among them. Pastor Steve, via an illustration about his family during the sermon said something similar about his parents non-reformed beliefs and practices.

The Sunday School teacher taught the class of probably 30 people out of the book Acts, and it was sufficiently meaty, but he broke from the exposition at one point to illustrate the doctrines of Grace via the TULIP acrostic (at which time he momentarily forgot what the “L” stood for, lol). This seemed a bit over the top to me, but the message was otherwise good.

The pastor’s sermon was from 1 John 2:27-29 and was about abiding in Christ. It was likewise filled with grace-filled exhortation to look to Christ for our strength and example. It was chock full of supporting references and never once did I hear “close your Bibles and listen to me”, <ahem, binaca chug>.

Lastly, in my concern for the reformed emphasis I wondered how much that impacted their method of evangelistic appeal. After the sermon they closed with a song (most of the music was via Getty music) and then a prayer. When the song finished the semi-pelegian in me wondered if they ever “give an invitation” of any sort, when to me very pleasant surprise Pastor Steve came back to the stage and invited any person who doubted, or knew they were not (abiding) in Christ to come after the close of service and talk with any of the (5) elders. I was sold, ad the gospel saturation and Bible centered exposition was satisfying.

Please pray with me that Alayboy would plant himself in such a Christ-centered healthy congregation for his final collegiate year of experience.

I also attended a Reformed Baptist Church a few times and thoroughly enjoyed the services, and the invitations were very similar to your experience. I went to a Sunday School class where the book of Revelation was being taught and even though they didn’t believe in the Dispensational aspect of it the teacher handed out printed material that explained what some people believed about it along with other beliefs without any vitriol. The songs they sung were mostly hymns and the contemporary songs were not in your face heavy metal stuff.

I remember the dispute several years ago with the song In Christ Alone which Getty wrote with the line "Till on that cross as Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied." The Presbyterian Church (USA) wanted to change that line in their hymn book which clearly proclaims the substitutionary atonement to “The love of God was magnified” in order to deny that the sacrifice of Christ was needed to appease the anger of God on sinful men. To his credit, Keith Getty refused and stood his ground. I have many good things to say about Reformed Christians without having to believe every point.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I also attended a Reformed Baptist Church a few times and thoroughly enjoyed the services, and the invitations were very similar to your experience. I went to a Sunday School class where the book of Revelation was being taught and even though they didn’t believe in the Dispensational aspect of it the teacher handed out printed material that explained what some people believed about it along with other beliefs without any vitriol. The songs they sung were mostly hymns and the contemporary songs were not in your face heavy metal stuff.

Ironically, I just finished a 1.5 year study of end times things and my introductory thoughts for the first couple of classes was to caution the folk not to be caustic towards differing eschatological views, especially if those Christians held orthodox and fundamental Christian views of God and the Bible.

I remember the dispute several years ago with the song In Christ Alone which Getty wrote with the line "Till on that cross as Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied." The Presbyterian Church (USA) wanted to change that line in their hymn book which clearly proclaims the substitutionary atonement to “The love of God was magnified” in order to deny that the sacrifice of Christ was needed to appease the anger of God on sinful men. To his credit, Keith Getty refused and stood his ground. I have many good things to say about Reformed Christians without having to believe every point.

You mentioned the “heavy metal stuff” above. The first song they put up on the bigscreen was “All Hail the Power”. As the title appeared on the screen (before the instrumental music began playing), not knowing exactly what to expect in the way of style, I was excited an expected such a classic hymn would set the tone of reverent and sober worship, when to my surprise, the loud crashing sounds of the drums and electric guitar jarred my sense of serenity and awe. After the service my wife, unprompted by me and not near as stodgy as as myself, said that moment startled her too.

Your point about the Gettys standing up for Biblical truth in the face of tradition and appeasement is part of the reasoning I employed when choosing where to find a potential church home for Alayboy. Though I disagree with TULIP, I respect the usual theological rigor that the reformed folk bring to the table in their treatment of the Scriptures as well the application of the Bible to church life. The emphasis on grace is also a great buffer against performance-based Christianity.

 

[biscuit1953]

I guess music is one of the things a church must decide upon and if someone objects, he can simply go to a different church, the same as someone who is upset with requiring choir members to dress up. As far as the T.U.L.I.P. goes, I guess there is nothing wrong with having an outline of one’s basic beliefs but no creed holds the same authority of scripture and the apostles. I strongly object to the “L” because the idea that Jesus didn’t die for the sins of the whole world is indisputably wrong. 1John 2:2 He is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. I don’t need John Calvin or any other man trying to explain that away. See also 2 Peter chapter two.

Just because I can’t reconcile the sovereignty of God with the responsibility of man in salvation doesn’t altar the fact that without God choosing to save some, no one would be saved because there is no one who seeks after God. We must be happy on this side of heaven to acknowledge human minds can’t comprehend some things.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I guess music is one of the things a church must decide upon and if someone objects, he can simply go to a different church, the same as someone who is upset with requiring choir member to dress up. As far as the T.U.L.I.P. goes, I guess there is nothing wrong with having an outline of one’s basic beliefs but no creed holds the same authority of scripture and the apostles. I strongly object to the “L” because the idea that Jesus didn’t die for the sins of the whole world is indisputably wrong. 1John 2:2 He is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. I don’t need John Calvin or any other man trying to explain that away. See also 2 Peter chapter two.

Just because I can’t reconcile the sovereignty of God with the responsibility of man in salvation doesn’t altar the fact that without God choosing to save some, no one would be saved because there is no one who seeks after God. We must be happy on this side of heaven to acknowledge human minds can’t comprehend some things.

You are really determined to start a Cal/Arm war, aren’t you?

 

[AverageJoe]

You are really determined to start a Cal/Arm war, aren’t you?

This IS the FFF, Brother! LoL

 

[brianb]

Ironically, I just finished a 1.5 year study of end times things and my introductory thoughts for the first couple of classes was to caution the folk not to be caustic towards differing eschatological views, especially if those Christians held orthodox and fundamental Christian views of God and the Bible.

You mentioned the “heavy metal stuff” above. The first song they put up on the bigscreen was “All Hail the Power”. As the title appeared on the screen (before the instrumental music began playing), not knowing exactly what to expect in the way of style, I was excited an expected such a classic hymn would set the tone of reverent and sober worship, when to my surprise, the loud crashing sounds of the drums and electric guitar jarred my sense of serenity and awe. After the service my wife, unprompted by me and not near as stodgy as as myself, said that moment startled her too.

Your point about the Gettys standing up for Biblical truth in the face of tradition and appeasement is part of the reasoning I employed when choosing where to find a potential church home for Alayboy. Though I disagree with TULIP, I respect the usual theological rigor that the reformed folk bring to the table in their treatment of the Scriptures as well the application of the Bible to church life. The emphasis on grace is also a great buffer against performance-based Christianit

I've only heard a metal version of A Mighty Fortress but it's just a generic metal guitar sound. Imagine if they had cellos in their worship. We have them in our church but we are traditional. It is actually a heavy metal instrument - probably the heaviest but it is rarely used in metal music (Rammstein - don't look them up - comes to mind)).