Is God asking his children to lie?

[The Rogue Tomato]

Since you are kind of avoiding the OP, I wonder if this sums up your position Recovering IFB:

God tells us to witness to all so YES, God is asking us to lie and tell people that they can be saved when in fact they cannot.

This is the question put forth in the OP. Is this your position?

What about the good news is a lie to anyone? 

It's like I open the door to a party and say, "I have pizza!"  People who like pizza will receive the news with joy.  People who hate pizza won't.  But it's still the truth.  I have pizza.  I didn't lie to anyone. 

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Since God can foresee the future, he is not going to elect anyone whom he "pre-foresaw" will reject him

And since we cannot foresee who will get saved, all we do is try. Be obedient and introduce scripture to them. Maybe share a personal testimony.

The question put forth is what do you tell them? Do you tell someone that Jesus died for them? Do you tell someone that they can be saved? The OP is simply trying to understand what it means to witness as a Calvinist.

 

[Biker]

Since God can foresee the future, he is not going to elect anyone whom he "pre-foresaw" will reject him

And since we cannot foresee who will get saved, all we do is try. Be obedient and introduce scripture to them. Maybe share a personal testimony.

The question put forth is what do you tell them? Do you tell someone that Jesus died for them? Do you tell someone that they can be saved? The OP is simply trying to understand what it means to witness as a Calvinist.

The VERY short of it is. I tell them Jesus died for the ungodly. Sin is inherited through Adam who defied Gods one law, and sin is rectified through the Second Adam's Sacrifice, Jesus Christs sacrifice.

Yet not all will accept his generous gift of salvation. I don't generally get into the reasons since that is really not part of spreading the Good News. Later hopefully, a one on one bible study has been established and then gradually, more is understood.
ANd I always point out we cannot know for sure, who is saved and who isn't. But there are fruits we can judge which will generally give us the correct answer, but again, not always.


Romans 5 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

      12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Since God can foresee the future, he is not going to elect anyone whom he "pre-foresaw" will reject him

And since we cannot foresee who will get saved, all we do is try. Be obedient and introduce scripture to them. Maybe share a personal testimony.

The question put forth is what do you tell them? Do you tell someone that Jesus died for them? Do you tell someone that they can be saved? The OP is simply trying to understand what it means to witness as a Calvinist.

The VERY short of it is. I tell them Jesus died for the ungodly. Sin is inherited through Adam who defied Gods one law, and sin is rectified through the Second Adam's Sacrifice, Jesus Christs sacrifice.

Yet not all will accept his generous gift of salvation. I don't generally get into the reasons since that is really not part of spreading the Good News. Later hopefully, a one on one bible study has been established and then gradually, more is understood.
ANd I always point out we cannot know for sure, who is saved and who isn't. But there are fruits we can judge which will generally give us the correct answer, but again, not always.


Romans 5 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

      12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Thank you.

What say you tim? This seems like a valid response.

Rogue Tomato - to further butcher your illustration, it seems like you are going to a party and saying "I have pizza for everyone!" which is the lie. If you are honest while evangelizing and make it clear that the gospel isn't for everyone then there you go. That was what tim (and others) were wondering. I understood that they were looking for a more practical answer to how you actually present the good news.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Since God can foresee the future, he is not going to elect anyone whom he "pre-foresaw" will reject him

And since we cannot foresee who will get saved, all we do is try. Be obedient and introduce scripture to them. Maybe share a personal testimony.

The question put forth is what do you tell them? Do you tell someone that Jesus died for them? Do you tell someone that they can be saved? The OP is simply trying to understand what it means to witness as a Calvinist.

The VERY short of it is. I tell them Jesus died for the ungodly. Sin is inherited through Adam who defied Gods one law, and sin is rectified through the Second Adam's Sacrifice, Jesus Christs sacrifice.

Yet not all will accept his generous gift of salvation. I don't generally get into the reasons since that is really not part of spreading the Good News. Later hopefully, a one on one bible study has been established and then gradually, more is understood.
ANd I always point out we cannot know for sure, who is saved and who isn't. But there are fruits we can judge which will generally give us the correct answer, but again, not always.


Romans 5 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

      12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Thank you.

What say you tim? This seems like a valid response.

Rogue Tomato - to further butcher your illustration, it seems like you are going to a party and saying "I have pizza for everyone!" which is the lie.

No, YOU are saying that, and it's a lie.  I wouldn't say such a thing.  It is sufficient to say, "I have pizza."  That's the truth, and let the chips fall where they may. 

And even if I had pizza for everyone, not everyone would want it.  Only those who God granted the taste for pizza would want it.  Unless you think we freely choose which foods to like and which to hate.  Because I've been trying to like bitter melon of my own free will, and haven't been able to do it. 

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Since God can foresee the future, he is not going to elect anyone whom he "pre-foresaw" will reject him

And since we cannot foresee who will get saved, all we do is try. Be obedient and introduce scripture to them. Maybe share a personal testimony.

The question put forth is what do you tell them? Do you tell someone that Jesus died for them? Do you tell someone that they can be saved? The OP is simply trying to understand what it means to witness as a Calvinist.

The VERY short of it is. I tell them Jesus died for the ungodly. Sin is inherited through Adam who defied Gods one law, and sin is rectified through the Second Adam's Sacrifice, Jesus Christs sacrifice.

Yet not all will accept his generous gift of salvation. I don't generally get into the reasons since that is really not part of spreading the Good News. Later hopefully, a one on one bible study has been established and then gradually, more is understood.
ANd I always point out we cannot know for sure, who is saved and who isn't. But there are fruits we can judge which will generally give us the correct answer, but again, not always.


Romans 5 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

      12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Thank you.

What say you tim? This seems like a valid response.

Rogue Tomato - to further butcher your illustration, it seems like you are going to a party and saying "I have pizza for everyone!" which is the lie.

No, YOU are saying that, and it's a lie.  I wouldn't say such a thing.  It is sufficient to say, "I have pizza."  That's the truth, and let the chips fall where they may. 

Got it. I think the OP was simply trying to understand the Calvinist position on evangelizing.

And even if I had pizza for everyone, not everyone would want it.  Only those who God granted the taste for pizza would want it.  Unless you think we freely choose which foods to like and which to hate.  Because I've been trying to like bitter melon of my own free will, and haven't been able to do it.

Right. I keep trying to tell you free will isn't synonymous with magic.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Darkwing; you understand the point that I posted that nobody seeks after God, right? It's not that we are lying to people, but people reject God outright

as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; Rom 3:10
All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. Is 53:6

Its only when God awakes somebody from death. ( see Lazarus)
John 6:63-65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Darkwing; you understand the point that I posted that nobody seeks after God, right? It's not that we are lying to people, but people reject God outright

as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; Rom 3:10
All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. Is 53:6

Its only when God awakes somebody from death. ( see Lazarus)
John 6:63-65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

I believe the Calvinist position on salvation (or what I understand to be their position - I believe the verses you quoted.)
But I don't have any clue how to evangelize with this belief.

 

[Recovering IFB]

I believe the Calvinist position on salvation (or what I understand to be their position - I believe the verses you quoted.)
But I don't have any clue how to evangelize with this belief.

Oh ok, well when we evangelize like we would at any other time, either the Holy Spirit will convict them and they believe the Gospel, or their hearts will harden and not believe. I don't think it boils down to asking somebody to making a decision. I have seen many make "decisions" and never see them in church ever.

 

[Ransom]

Every single person has violated God's law and brought his wrath and judgment upon them.

But the good news is, Jesus Christ died the death sinners deserve. He himself was sinless, the only truly innocent man in all of history. But he was hung on a cross to die. taking upon himself the sins of his people, the innocent man dying a death in the place of the guilty.

By his death, Christ satisfied the just claims of God the Father, and appeased his wrath, against them. He was shown to be vindicated when, on the third day, Jesus rose again from the dead. The resurrection proves that Jesus Christ's substitutionary sacrifice was pleasing to his Father, and therefore there can be forgiveness of sins.

Are you a sinner? Do you understand that in your present condition you deserve God's wrath, and that he is fully within his rights as your Creator to judge you guilty of your sins and sentence you to the everlasting torment of hell? Do you want forgiveness? Only Christ can offer it. Come to him. The Bible promises that just as Christ has taken your sinfulness upon himself, he offers you his own righteousness. He promises that he will plead your case before the Father, and the Father will not refuse what his Son asks of him. You are now God's enemy, but Christ promises reconciliation: the enemy will be made a friend; more than that, an adopted son, alive with him for eternity. He promises that whoever believes in him will never be disappointed. So believe in him. Believe the promises of the Bible, and you will surely receive forgiveness of your sins, reconciliation with God, and eternal life.

Please feel free to spot either the "lies" in the above loose paraphrase, or the statements that are at odds with Calvinistic soteriology. Good luck.

Perhaps our free-willy friends would really, truly love to tell random strangers, "Jesus died for you," or "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life." I wonder how they can know what plans God has for someone's life? Who's telling lies, now?

 

[Ransom]

Rogue Tomato - to further butcher your illustration, it seems like you are going to a party and saying "I have pizza for everyone!" which is the lie.

It's not a lie at all - at least, not the way Rogue actually wrote it, as opposed to your rewrite.

Whoever comes to the party and wants pizza, can have pizza.

Some people don't like pizza, and some don't like Rogue personally and wouldn't darken his door. That doesn't make Rogue a liar. That makes them unwilling to meet his unstated conditions for receiving pizza.

The honesty (or sincerity, of you prefer) of an offer lies in the ability or willingness of the offeror to make good. In other words: if Rogue gives pizza to everyone at his party - regardless of why they came - then the offer is sincere. If he has no pizza, or refuses to give it to some people, then it is not. The inability or unwillingness of an offeree to come to the party, doesn't make the offeror insincere.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Every single person has violated God's law and brought his wrath and judgment upon them.

But the good news is, Jesus Christ died the death sinners deserve. He himself was sinless, the only truly innocent man in all of history. But he was hung on a cross to die. taking upon himself the sins of his people, the innocent man dying a death in the place of the guilty.

By his death, Christ satisfied the just claims of God the Father, and appeased his wrath, against them. He was shown to be vindicated when, on the third day, Jesus rose again from the dead. The resurrection proves that Jesus Christ's substitutionary sacrifice was pleasing to his Father, and therefore there can be forgiveness of sins.

Are you a sinner? Do you understand that in your present condition you deserve God's wrath, and that he is fully within his rights as your Creator to judge you guilty of your sins and sentence you to the everlasting torment of hell? Do you want forgiveness? Only Christ can offer it. Come to him. The Bible promises that just as Christ has taken your sinfulness upon himself, he offers you his own righteousness. He promises that he will plead your case before the Father, and the Father will not refuse what his Son asks of him. You are now God's enemy, but Christ promises reconciliation: the enemy will be made a friend; more than that, an adopted son, alive with him for eternity. He promises that whoever believes in him will never be disappointed. So believe in him. Believe the promises of the Bible, and you will surely receive forgiveness of your sins, reconciliation with God, and eternal life.

This is wonderful. One would be hard-pressed to define this message of salvation as "Calvinist" or "Arminian".
(perhaps because this is the actual Gospel)

 

[BandGuy]

When a child of God shares the gospel with another human a moment of decision is generally reached.

Many will say, "Would you like to accept Jesus Christ as your savior right now?"

And the other person will say something like, "yes", "no", "not now", "go away", or "can you pray for me?"

And, if you believe like I do (Salvation is for all mankind) you have just told them beautiful gospel truth.

Now. If God truly is the God who only gives salvation to a select few ... what about the ones not elected for God's grace? Is not telling them the good news actually a lie? Is not God asking you to lie? After all, these people could never get saved as a non-elect person. Jesus didn't die for them. God didn't live them very much, he was content with their judgement already cast.

Is God asking his children to lie?

Or, perhaps, when you share the gospel (as a reformed believer) ... do you tell the person they might, MIGHT, be elected for hell?

When a child of God shares the gospel with another human a moment of decision is generally reached.

Many will say, "Would you like to accept Jesus Christ as your savior right now?"

And the other person will say something like, "yes", "no", "not now", "go away", or "can you pray for me?"

And, if you believe like I do (Salvation is for Whosoever will) you have just told them beautiful gospel truth.

Now. If God truly is the God who only gives salvation to those whom He knows will choose Him (not necessarily predestines ... what about the ones whom God knew before they were born would reject Him? Is not telling them the good news actually a lie? Is not God asking you to lie? After all, God knows these people will never get saved. They just don't have  enough goodness in them to freely choose Christ. God loves them very much, so much so that He was content with their judgement already foreknown before they were born that He created them so He could prove what a wonderful gentleman He is.

Is God asking his children to lie?

Or, perhaps, when you share the gospel (as an Arminian believer) ... do you tell the person God's power might, Might, MIGHT  not be enough to change their hearts from wicked enemies of God to a soul who repents and desires to Follow Christ?

 

[christundivided]

You forget, we are all sinner who deserve hell, nobody seeks after God, (Rom 3-11). It's only God reviving somebody back to life. So we are all,without God,doomed anyway.
So again I ask, can you thwart God's plan to "reject" him after God has a day that he purposed for you?

God has no plan for specific people to reject Him. Romans 3 isn't an island unto itself.

Romans 9:22-23
Can you please answer my question?

I'll answer your question in its own thread.

 

[christundivided]

Since God can foresee the future, he is not going to elect anyone whom he "pre-foresaw" will reject him

And since we cannot foresee who will get saved, all we do is try. Be obedient and introduce scripture to them. Maybe share a personal testimony.

The question put forth is what do you tell them? Do you tell someone that Jesus died for them? Do you tell someone that they can be saved? The OP is simply trying to understand what it means to witness as a Calvinist.

The VERY short of it is. I tell them Jesus died for the ungodly. Sin is inherited through Adam who defied Gods one law, and sin is rectified through the Second Adam's Sacrifice, Jesus Christs sacrifice.

Yet not all will accept his generous gift of salvation. I don't generally get into the reasons since that is really not part of spreading the Good News. Later hopefully, a one on one bible study has been established and then gradually, more is understood.
ANd I always point out we cannot know for sure, who is saved and who isn't. But there are fruits we can judge which will generally give us the correct answer, but again, not always.


Romans 5 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

      12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Thank you.

What say you tim? This seems like a valid response.

Rogue Tomato - to further butcher your illustration, it seems like you are going to a party and saying "I have pizza for everyone!" which is the lie.

No, YOU are saying that, and it's a lie.  I wouldn't say such a thing.  It is sufficient to say, "I have pizza."  That's the truth, and let the chips fall where they may. 

And even if I had pizza for everyone, not everyone would want it.  Only those who God granted the taste for pizza would want it.  Unless you think we freely choose which foods to like and which to hate.  Because I've been trying to like bitter melon of my own free will, and haven't been able to do it.

I can tell you how to come to like bitter melon.... Keep eating it....

There are many things that initially cause an initial bad reaction from the "palate". If I told you that eating "bitter melon" is the only way you'd ever be able to truly know Eternal Life...... you might just change your mind.

Either way, you're offering pizza to people that potential like pizza. In fact, if you want to make an accurate analogy..... you're offering the BEST pizza. A PIZZA that is unique and special. A pizza like non other.

Given the "nature" of this PIZZA......I'd say you couldn't rely on those that general dislike pizza to reject your call.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Darkwing Duck]
Got it. I think the OP was simply trying to understand the Calvinist position on evangelizing.[/quote]

No.  The OP was just trolling.

 

[Bruh]

Since God can foresee the future, he is not going to elect anyone whom he "pre-foresaw" will reject him

And since we cannot foresee who will get saved, all we do is try. Be obedient and introduce scripture to them. Maybe share a personal testimony.

The question put forth is what do you tell them? Do you tell someone that Jesus died for them? Do you tell someone that they can be saved? The OP is simply trying to understand what it means to witness as a Calvinist.

The VERY short of it is. I tell them Jesus died for the ungodly. Sin is inherited through Adam who defied Gods one law, and sin is rectified through the Second Adam's Sacrifice, Jesus Christs sacrifice.

Yet not all will accept his generous gift of salvation. I don't generally get into the reasons since that is really not part of spreading the Good News. Later hopefully, a one on one bible study has been established and then gradually, more is understood.
ANd I always point out we cannot know for sure, who is saved and who isn't. But there are fruits we can judge which will generally give us the correct answer, but again, not always.


Romans 5 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

      12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Thank you.

What say you tim? This seems like a valid response.

Rogue Tomato - to further butcher your illustration, it seems like you are going to a party and saying "I have pizza for everyone!" which is the lie.

No, YOU are saying that, and it's a lie.  I wouldn't say such a thing.  It is sufficient to say, "I have pizza."  That's the truth, and let the chips fall where they may. 

And even if I had pizza for everyone, not everyone would want it.  Only those who God granted the taste for pizza would want it.  Unless you think we freely choose which foods to like and which to hate.  Because I've been trying to like bitter melon of my own free will, and haven't been able to do it.

Then in reality God created them not to enjoy the taste for pizza therefore they have no choice because the Creator did not create them this way. 

See, here's what I believe, is that God has granted all people the opportunity to develop a taste for pizza. 

Your belief system seems to indicate that God will not even give a person a chance to develop a taste for pizza? 

LOL!!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Then in reality God created them not to enjoy the taste for pizza therefore they have no choice because the Creator did not create them this way. 

Well, sort of.  It's not a matter of having a choice or not having a choice.  We are born with the inclination to sin (hate pizza).  It takes an act of God to reverse this. 

See, here's what I believe, is that God has granted all people the opportunity to develop a taste for pizza. 

Your belief system seems to indicate that God will not even give a person a chance to develop a taste for pizza? 

LOL!!

You are confusing opportunity with will.  Yes, we have the opportunity.  We are born disinclined to seize the opportunity, so we don't.  Unless God changes our inclination, we'll simply be happy hating pizza.

 

[Bruh]

Then in reality God created them not to enjoy the taste for pizza therefore they have no choice because the Creator did not create them this way. 

Well, sort of.  It's not a matter of having a choice or not having a choice.  We are born with the inclination to sin (hate pizza).  It takes an act of God to reverse this. 

See, here's what I believe, is that God has granted all people the opportunity to develop a taste for pizza. 

Your belief system seems to indicate that God will not even give a person a chance to develop a taste for pizza? 

LOL!!

You are confusing opportunity with will.  Yes, we have the opportunity.  We are born disinclined to seize the opportunity, so we don't.  Unless God changes our inclination, we'll simply be happy hating pizza.

I'm not a Calvinist but I think I agree with everything you said. 

O.k as for the bold, I believe that the Holy Spirit is actively trying to draw all men to Christ that God may "change their inclination".

Also, Calvinist believe that, everyone on earth has a "choice" to be "chosen" by God or not?

And if they "choose" not to be "chosen" then God has created them to be sent to hell? 

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=Darkwing Duck]
Got it. I think the OP was simply trying to understand the Calvinist position on evangelizing.

No.  The OP was just trolling.
[/quote]

No it wasn't you blathering moron. Its a valid question.