Is God asking his children to lie?

[christundivided]

You are confusing opportunity with will.  Yes, we have the opportunity.  We are born disinclined to seize the opportunity, so we don't.  Unless God changes our inclination, we'll simply be happy hating pizza.

You're ignoring the innate Power of the Gospel.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Also, Calvinist believe that, everyone on earth has a "choice" to be "chosen" by God or not?

Not.  If you could choose to be chosen, then there'd be no reason for political elections.  Obama could simply chose to be elected to office, to hell with what the people want. 

The word "chosen" tells you who's doing the choosing. 

 

[BandGuy]

Also, Calvinist believe that, everyone on earth has a "choice" to be "chosen" by God or not?

Not.  If you could choose to be chosen, then there'd be no reason for political elections.  Obama could simply chose to be elected to office, to hell with what the people want. 

The word "chosen" tells you who's doing the choosing.

Just give him a few more years.  He may never have to leave office...SERIOUSLY!

 

[.tim]

[quote author=Darkwing Duck]
Got it. I think the OP was simply trying to understand the Calvinist position on evangelizing.

No.  The OP was just trolling.
[/quote]

Nope.

 

[.tim]

Since God can foresee the future, he is not going to elect anyone whom he "pre-foresaw" will reject him

And since we cannot foresee who will get saved, all we do is try. Be obedient and introduce scripture to them. Maybe share a personal testimony.

The question put forth is what do you tell them? Do you tell someone that Jesus died for them? Do you tell someone that they can be saved? The OP is simply trying to understand what it means to witness as a Calvinist.

The VERY short of it is. I tell them Jesus died for the ungodly. Sin is inherited through Adam who defied Gods one law, and sin is rectified through the Second Adam's Sacrifice, Jesus Christs sacrifice.

Yet not all will accept his generous gift of salvation. I don't generally get into the reasons since that is really not part of spreading the Good News. Later hopefully, a one on one bible study has been established and then gradually, more is understood.
ANd I always point out we cannot know for sure, who is saved and who isn't. But there are fruits we can judge which will generally give us the correct answer, but again, not always.


Romans 5 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

      12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Thank you.

What say you tim? This seems like a valid response.

Rogue Tomato - to further butcher your illustration, it seems like you are going to a party and saying "I have pizza for everyone!" which is the lie. If you are honest while evangelizing and make it clear that the gospel isn't for everyone then there you go. That was what tim (and others) were wondering. I understood that they were looking for a more practical answer to how you actually present the good news.

What do I say? Jesus seemed perturbed when the Jewish leaders were making God so high and unattainable ... it seems from scripture anyone could come to Christ for healing. I don't see Jesus excluding anyone during his earthly ministry. He looks out on a crowd and has compassion. It seems like any Gospel presentation ends with the simple concept of "What will you do with Jesus?" ... it isn't about accepting a slice of Pizza just sitting around at a party, it is about the Son of God who died for each and every person .... and if I am suppose to believe Jesus only died, or only a select few can enter into this grace I stand, I see a Jesus excluding people ... and I see a Jesus void of compassion for the crowd. I see a Jesus asking his people to lie and say the Good News and His Love isn't a full, genuine, love.

It doesn't add up for me.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I don't see Jesus excluding anyone during his earthly ministry.

I do.  For example, Jesus deliberately drove away the majority of his listeners by telling them they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood.  He could have presented this truth in such a way as to keep the people following him.  But he didn't. 

When the crowds started to grumble at that, he said, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." 

Free willers like to focus on the words "draws him" and then says that applies to everyone.  But the context excludes that interpretation.  Jesus was specifically explaining why they wouldn't come to him: because the Father didn't draw them. 

A few verses later, Jesus repeats what he said, only a little differently, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

This is not an additional saying, but a repetition of the first.  "Therefore I have said to you..."  So "drawing" cannot mean what free willers think it means. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

You are confusing opportunity with will.  Yes, we have the opportunity.  We are born disinclined to seize the opportunity, so we don't.  Unless God changes our inclination, we'll simply be happy hating pizza.

You're ignoring the innate Power of the Gospel.

How is that possible? TRT is claiming that it is entirely the Gospel that gives us eternal life, all God, no human interaction. but you deny it claiming that have part of it, that is Semi-Pelagianism

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I don't see Jesus excluding anyone during his earthly ministry.

I do.  For example, Jesus deliberately drove away the majority of his listeners by telling them they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood.  He could have presented this truth in such a way as to keep the people following him.  But he didn't. 

When the crowds started to grumble at that, he said, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." 

Free willers like to focus on the words "draws him" and then says that applies to everyone.  But the context excludes that interpretation.  Jesus was specifically explaining why they wouldn't come to him: because the Father didn't draw them. 

A few verses later, Jesus repeats what he said, only a little differently, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

This is not an additional saying, but a repetition of the first.  "Therefore I have said to you..."  So "drawing" cannot mean what free willers think it means.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
6:60-65 The human nature of Christ had not before been in heaven, but being God and man, that wondrous Person was truly said to have come down from heaven. The Messiah's kingdom was not of this world; and they were to understand by faith, what he had said of a spiritual living upon him, and his fulness. As without the soul of man the flesh is of no value, so without the quickening Spirit of God all forms of religion are dead and worthless. He who made this provision for our souls, alone can teach us these things, and draw us unto Christ, that we may live by faith in him. Let us apply to Christ, thankful that it is declared that every one who is willing to come unto him shall be made welcome.

I can quote commentaries, too.  And I would, if it wasn't a complete waste of time. 

 

[.tim]

I don't see Jesus excluding anyone during his earthly ministry.

I do.  For example, Jesus deliberately drove away the majority of his listeners by telling them they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood.  He could have presented this truth in such a way as to keep the people following him.  But he didn't. 

When the crowds started to grumble at that, he said, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." 

Free willers like to focus on the words "draws him" and then says that applies to everyone.  But the context excludes that interpretation.  Jesus was specifically explaining why they wouldn't come to him: because the Father didn't draw them. 

A few verses later, Jesus repeats what he said, only a little differently, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

This is not an additional saying, but a repetition of the first.  "Therefore I have said to you..."  So "drawing" cannot mean what free willers think it means.

Does not God grant salvation to everyone who comes by faith? Does not the Holy Spirit convict? Jesus is correct, nobody can come unless God grants it - and all who come by faith are given such freedom and grace.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I don't see Jesus excluding anyone during his earthly ministry.

I do.  For example, Jesus deliberately drove away the majority of his listeners by telling them they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood.  He could have presented this truth in such a way as to keep the people following him.  But he didn't. 

When the crowds started to grumble at that, he said, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." 

Free willers like to focus on the words "draws him" and then says that applies to everyone.  But the context excludes that interpretation.  Jesus was specifically explaining why they wouldn't come to him: because the Father didn't draw them. 

A few verses later, Jesus repeats what he said, only a little differently, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

This is not an additional saying, but a repetition of the first.  "Therefore I have said to you..."  So "drawing" cannot mean what free willers think it means.

Does not God grant salvation to everyone who comes by faith? Does not the Holy Spirit convict? Jesus is correct, nobody can come unless God grants it - and all who come by faith are given such freedom and grace.

Doublespeak.  And you're putting the cart before the horse. 

 

[.tim]

I don't see Jesus excluding anyone during his earthly ministry.

I do.  For example, Jesus deliberately drove away the majority of his listeners by telling them they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood.  He could have presented this truth in such a way as to keep the people following him.  But he didn't. 

When the crowds started to grumble at that, he said, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." 

Free willers like to focus on the words "draws him" and then says that applies to everyone.  But the context excludes that interpretation.  Jesus was specifically explaining why they wouldn't come to him: because the Father didn't draw them. 

A few verses later, Jesus repeats what he said, only a little differently, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

This is not an additional saying, but a repetition of the first.  "Therefore I have said to you..."  So "drawing" cannot mean what free willers think it means.

Does not God grant salvation to everyone who comes by faith? Does not the Holy Spirit convict? Jesus is correct, nobody can come unless God grants it - and all who come by faith are given such freedom and grace.

Doublespeak.  And you're putting the cart before the horse.

This will come off clumsy ... but I will give it a try ...

"Stop complaining to each other" Jesus said in response to their skepticism regarding who he really was. They didn't see God, but a Jewish carpenter. "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him to me" Jesus said to them. They didn't see "God" in Jesus, they were too ignorant to see "God in Flesh" who would draw them to the truth - Jesus Christ the Gospel. Seeing the deity in Christ draws us to him.

So, again, when Jesus says, "If the Father does not bring a person to me, that one cannot come." He is basically saying to the Jews, seeing nothing more than a Jewish carpenter, "If you can not see God in me, you will never see The Messiah"

1 John 2:2 is so clear to me that Jesus died for all of mankind. "He died in our place to take away our sins, and not only our sins but the sins of all people." It is using this passage I can give hope to every person I share the gospel with. Not a "did you get the presentation" sort of hope -  but a "The Creator of the Universe LOVES you" kind of hope.

 

[Recovering IFB]

1 John 2:2 is so clear to me that Jesus died for all of mankind. "He died in our place to take away our sins, and not only our sins but the sins of all people." It is using this passage I can give hope to every person I share the gospel with. Not a "did you get the presentation" sort of hope -  but a "The Creator of the Universe LOVES you" kind of hope.

Let me ask you something that CU seems to not want to answer? in the OT was the temple sacrifices for the children of Israel or the whole world?
Are you a Universalist? So if Jesus died for the whole world, then love wins in the end? all are saved? is that what you are implying?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So, again, when Jesus says, "If the Father does not bring a person to me, that one cannot come." He is basically saying to the Jews, seeing nothing more than a Jewish carpenter, "If you can not see God in me, you will never see The Messiah"

Like I've said about the KJVOs, you ought to host your own ghost hunter show.  You have a knack for seeing things that aren't there. 

1 John 2:2 is so clear to me that Jesus died for all of mankind.

Then all mankind is saved.  And you think Calvinists have no reason to evangelize.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

CU is gone. He deleted his account.

Seriously? Wow. Did he give any reason why?

 

[Bob H]

Timmy - must you start 42 threads about the same hobby horse  within days of each other?

He had no say in the matter

 

[Darkwing Duck]

1 John 2:2 is so clear to me that Jesus died for all of mankind.

Then all mankind is saved.  And you think Calvinists have no reason to evangelize.

I notice you aren't making an attempt to explain I John 2:2. . .


I don't see why Calvinists always insist that unlimited atonement somehow equals all mankind getting saved. Since when does an offer to everyone suddenly result in everyone automatically receiving the offer?

It really astonishes me that Calvinists think that "Jesus died for everyone" somehow equals "Everyone is now automatically saved".

If a Calvinist says "Jesus died for only those who will be elect." You won't hear an Arminian say "Oh, so all those who will be  elect are already saved?" Of course not, there are some that haven't been saved yet. If you are going to use bad logic then you have to apply it both ways.

 

[.tim]

So, again, when Jesus says, "If the Father does not bring a person to me, that one cannot come." He is basically saying to the Jews, seeing nothing more than a Jewish carpenter, "If you can not see God in me, you will never see The Messiah"

Like I've said about the KJVOs, you ought to host your own ghost hunter show.  You have a knack for seeing things that aren't there. 

1 John 2:2 is so clear to me that Jesus died for all of mankind.

Then all mankind is saved.  And you think Calvinists have no reason to evangelize.

Jesus died for mankind, but mankind must by faith accept this gift. God doesn't force grace on us.

 

[.tim]

1 John 2:2 is so clear to me that Jesus died for all of mankind. "He died in our place to take away our sins, and not only our sins but the sins of all people." It is using this passage I can give hope to every person I share the gospel with. Not a "did you get the presentation" sort of hope -  but a "The Creator of the Universe LOVES you" kind of hope.

Let me ask you something that CU seems to not want to answer? in the OT was the temple sacrifices for the children of Israel or the whole world?
Are you a Universalist? So if Jesus died for the whole world, then love wins in the end? all are saved? is that what you are implying?

The temple sacrifices were for the Children of Israel. The sin curse was for all of mankind, and so, by one man (Jesus Christ), all can now freely come to the throne of grace. No limit. No special people. Just sinners saved by grace. And only by faith can a sinner be saved. So, Jesus loved the world and died for the sins of the worlds human population - but, each man and woman must come to the cross and believe to be saved.

 

[Recovering IFB]

So, again, when Jesus says, "If the Father does not bring a person to me, that one cannot come." He is basically saying to the Jews, seeing nothing more than a Jewish carpenter, "If you can not see God in me, you will never see The Messiah"

Like I've said about the KJVOs, you ought to host your own ghost hunter show.  You have a knack for seeing things that aren't there. 

1 John 2:2 is so clear to me that Jesus died for all of mankind.

Then all mankind is saved.  And you think Calvinists have no reason to evangelize.

Jesus died for mankind, but mankind must by faith accept this gift. God doesn't force grace on us.

Your right, God doesn't force, he predestinated. Was Paul seeking Christ  on the road Damascus? Did Lazurus help in having Christ bring him back to life? The only thing we offer God is the sin that need to be forgiven

 

[Recovering IFB]

1 John 2:2 is so clear to me that Jesus died for all of mankind. "He died in our place to take away our sins, and not only our sins but the sins of all people." It is using this passage I can give hope to every person I share the gospel with. Not a "did you get the presentation" sort of hope -  but a "The Creator of the Universe LOVES you" kind of hope.

Let me ask you something that CU seems to not want to answer? in the OT was the temple sacrifices for the children of Israel or the whole world?
Are you a Universalist? So if Jesus died for the whole world, then love wins in the end? all are saved? is that what you are implying?

The temple sacrifices were for the Children of Israel. The sin curse was for all of mankind, and so, by one man (Jesus Christ), all can now freely come to the throne of grace. No limit. No special people. Just sinners saved by grace. And only by faith can a sinner be saved. So, Jesus loved the world and died for the sins of the worlds human population - but, each man and woman must come to the cross and believe to be saved.

Jesus lays down his life for his sheep (John 15:13; John 10:11) if he did for the world, then everybody is saved.