Is Lucifer Satan?

cpizzle

cpizzle

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I think I am about the only Baptist Preacher who doesn't believe that Lucifer in the book of Isaiah (nor the Prince of Tyre in Ezekiel) refer to the Devil. 

I have a problem teaching that he was "once good, but turned bad" when Jesus said he was a "murderer from the beginning." (John 8:44)
 
"Confess your faults one to another"
 
cpizzle said:
I think I am about the only Baptist Preacher who doesn't believe that Lucifer in the book of Isaiah (nor the Prince of Tyre in Ezekiel) refer to the Devil. 

I have a problem teaching that he was "once good, but turned bad" when Jesus said he was a "murderer from the beginning." (John 8:44)
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I think the murderer from the beginning part refers to when he inspired Cain to murder Abel.  Before that there was no murder as angels being spirit beings can't be murdered.
 
Isaiah 14 is explicitly addressed to the king of Babylon. "Lucifer" in  verse 12 is the Latin equivalent of the Hebrew heylel, the proper name for the morning star (i.e. Venus in its morning aspect). The morning star, as the brightest object in the night sky other than the moon, is a common symbol for royalty.

The rhetoric of the prophecy in chapter 14, though it often uses heightened language, is clearly addressed to a man rather than a divine being.
 
brianb said:
cpizzle said:
I think I am about the only Baptist Preacher who doesn't believe that Lucifer in the book of Isaiah (nor the Prince of Tyre in Ezekiel) refer to the Devil. 

I have a problem teaching that he was "once good, but turned bad" when Jesus said he was a "murderer from the beginning." (John 8:44)
Click to expand...

I think the murderer from the beginning part refers to when he inspired Cain to murder Abel.  Before that there was no murder as angels being spirit beings can't be murdered.
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1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
 
cpizzle said:
brianb said:
cpizzle said:
I think I am about the only Baptist Preacher who doesn't believe that Lucifer in the book of Isaiah (nor the Prince of Tyre in Ezekiel) refer to the Devil. 

I have a problem teaching that he was "once good, but turned bad" when Jesus said he was a "murderer from the beginning." (John 8:44)
Click to expand...

I think the murderer from the beginning part refers to when he inspired Cain to murder Abel.  Before that there was no murder as angels being spirit beings can't be murdered.
Click to expand...


1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
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The beginning of what?
 
I think the clear teaching of both verses indicate that the Devil has always been a Murderer and a Sinner since "his" beginning.
 
cpizzle said:
I think the clear teaching of both verses indicate that the Devil has always been a Murderer and a Sinner since "his" beginning.
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I don't think so.

What of the other "beginnings" in I John?

And did the Son of Man "destroy the works of the devil"?  Nope.  Not yet.  There's more going on here.
 
cpizzle said:
I think I am about the only Baptist Preacher who doesn't believe that Lucifer in the book of Isaiah (nor the Prince of Tyre in Ezekiel) refer to the Devil. 

I have a problem teaching that he was "once good, but turned bad" when Jesus said he was a "murderer from the beginning." (John 8:44)
Click to expand...

Yes they are the same; he is a murderer from the beginning of time bc he leads souls to "complete spiritual destruction" or he influenced Cain that his "religion " was good enough and he had to murder to prove it
 
Everybody keeps posting like this is settled doctrine.  Someone just posted "yes"....great insight :)

Would somebody walk me through the Bible to show that Satan was once a good angel (Lucifer) that fell from heaven and became the Devil.  Leave all presupositions aside and make a compelling case. 

You must show that Luicifer in Isaiah is talking about the Devil even though it is not even implied.
You must show that the Prince of Tyre in Ezekial is talking about the Devil even though it is addressed to a man.
You must show that Satan was ever called good using clear scripture if you are going to contridict the two easily understood passages that state he was "bad from the beginning."

The theory that Satan is a fallen angel isn't true just because we have always said so.  Use the Bible please.

 
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Lk 18:10 its possible that this was a prophecy or reference to the past. wither way the description of the individual matches up .....

Isa 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Rev 12: 7-14
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, ?Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.?

Lucifer and Satan are both one in same as they weakened the nation by tempting sin upon mankind.

I would challenge you instead of railing on people to prove who Lucifer is, if he isnt Satan. If its wrong you prove it. :)

Who was he?
Where did her come from ?
Where did he go ?
Will he be back ?
 
Saved by Grace said:
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Lk 18:10 its possible that this was a prophecy or reference to the past. wither way the description of the individual matches up .....

Isa 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Rev 12: 7-14
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, ?Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.?

Lucifer and Satan are both one in same as they weakened the nation by tempting sin upon mankind.

I would challenge you instead of railing on people to prove who Lucifer is, if he isnt Satan. If its wrong you prove it. :)

Who was he?
Where did her come from ?
Where did he go ?
Will he be back ?
Click to expand...
This is my understanding, as well^^^

Sent from my H1611 using Tapatalk

 
I appreciate your thought process, it is the best I could come up with as well if I was defending the Lucifer/Satan/Fallen Angel teaching. 

Even still, it is assumption built upon assumption:
Luke 18:10 - "I saw Satan as lightning fall from Heaven. "  Doesn't prove Angelic status.  Just a defeat.  Could refer to a Fallen Angel, but it is certainly not stated.  You have to make a major assumption here.

Isaiah 14 - Lucifer fell from Heaven.....Satan fell from Heaven......must be talking about the same person.  Again, an assumption.  It could just be prophetic language saying that a Babylonian King (the context of the chapter) has displeased God and thus has "fallen from Heaven."  He raised himself up (pride) but was brought low. 

Ezekial 28 - Prince of Tyre - No reason to think this is Satan except for the phrase "Thou was in Eden, the Garden of God."  Again, prohetic language is not necessarily historical.  It could be, but it doesn't have to be.  This is the only time "Angelic Origins" can be found since the Prince of Tyre is referred to as the "Cherub that covereth."  It also states he was perfect until iniquity was found in him.

Revelation 12 - Obviously a prophecy.  Satan is cast down to the Earth and takes his "wrath" out on the inhabitants.  Would not line up with "fallen angel" theory which must take place before Adam and Eve sinned.

Here is how the teaching goes.  Satan fell from heaven.  Lucifer "fell from Heaven".....They must be the same person.  (Assumption 1)
Satan was in Eden.  The Prince of Tyre "was in Eden"....they must be the same.  (Assumption 2)
The Prince of Tyre is called an "annointed cherub."  Satan must have been an Angel (Assumption 3)

Again, Jesus (and John) said that Satan was a Sinner and a Murderer from the beginning.  Why use so many "unclear verses" to contridict 2 clear verses.

 
"I would challenge you instead of railing on people to prove who Lucifer is, if he isnt Satan. If its wrong you prove it. 

Who was he?
Where did her come from ?
Where did he go ?
Will he be back ? "

Who is Lucifer - A Babylonian King who faced God's Judgement. 
Who is Satan - The Devil, the Enemy, the Accuser of the Brethren, The Destroyer, ect?. What is his origin...I Have no idea!  Not knowing where he came from doesn't mean that the only other theory must be correct. 

Where did he go?  He's here, on the Earth.  He exists in a spiritual realm (dimension???) but in a Geographical place (Earth.)  You can't reach Hell with a drill, but it is in the Center of the Earth.

Will he be Back?  Well, he will be chained and cast into the "Bottomless Pit" during the Millennial Reign and then released for a "short season" before he is burned forever in the Lake of Fire.
 
cpizzle said:
...Satan was once a good angel (Lucifer)
Click to expand...

Satan (Lucifer) has never been nor will be an "angel".  He is the fifth cherub.

If you don't know the difference, that's a good place to start.
 
What about the Cherubim who guarded the Garden of Eden?  What if he is actually the 20th Cherubim :)

Cherubim and Seraphim are generally regarded as "Angelic beings."  The Bible never gives us a detailed understanding of the Heavenly Host.  We get glimpses, but we fill in the gaps with extra Biblical conjectures.

You just challenged my interpretation of scripture with some sort of Ruckmanite presupposition and inferred my ignorance of God's Word because I don't subscribe to more man-made theories.
 
cpizzle said:
"I would challenge you instead of railing on people to prove who Lucifer is, if he isnt Satan. If its wrong you prove it. 

Who was he?
Where did her come from ?
Where did he go ?
Will he be back ? "



Who is Lucifer - A Babylonian King who faced God's Judgement. 
Who is Satan - The Devil, the Enemy, the Accuser of the Brethren, The Destroyer, ect?. What is his origin...I Have no idea!  Not knowing where he came from doesn't mean that the only other theory must be correct. 

Where did he go?  He's here, on the Earth.  He exists in a spiritual realm (dimension???) but in a Geographical place (Earth.)  You can't reach Hell with a drill, but it is in the Center of the Earth.

Will he be Back?  Well, he will be chained and cast into the "Bottomless Pit" during the Millennial Reign and then released for a "short season" before he is burned forever in the Lake of Fire.
Click to expand...


I personally believe that he like other angelic hosts was created by God ....God created all things Jn 1:3; 11        Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
I believe he access to the throne of God at this time so he can accuse the brethren Job 1
I believe he was given a free will like all heavenly beings and humans and chose to rebell or defy God ( which is the Isaiah account )
I believe that he persuaded others angelic beings to join him in his crusade Satan is definitely more than a man because the angles of heaven that fell  surely wouldnt follow one human. Mt 27:41
I believe that he will at some point after the rapture ( i know i know her come the mid tribers to lay siege to this post )  not be allowed into Heaven ( he knows at this point his time is short )
I believe that Satan and Lucifer and king of tyre are the same as they both are describes with similar wording and their "fruit " is the same
I believe that the king of Tyre if he was a mere mortal  may have been possessed or at very least heavily influenced by Satan. Satan will do this again with the Anitchrist in Revelation.  He has no doubt either possessed previous POTUS  or at very least has someone close to the POTUS that was Possessed or heavily influenced.
I believe that Satan does not know when Rapture will occur and that is why he is playing "kingmaker " at all times so he has his man ready to come to power when the time is/was right.  (  for example if the Rapture happened during 2008-2016 Barak Obama whose name literally mean lighting from heaven would have been able to either introduce the antichrist to the world  or have filled the role himself ......
Most importantly i believe that he will be judged after the tribluation and damned to lake of Fire ( where it is physically at i dont care as i will be elsewhere ) for all eternity and he will spend eternity with all of his followers


 
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