Is the Case of all pronouns in the KJV correct standard English?

logos1560

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The 1769 Oxford edition of the KJV may have some editing or printing inconsistencies concerning the case of pronouns. 

In an article entitled “Ye and You in the King James Version,” John S. Kenyon claimed:  “In three cases [Gen. 9:7, Gen. 45:8, Job 12:3] nominative you in the text escaped Blayney, and consequently stands in our present day Bibles” (Publication of the Modern Language Association, Vol. XXIX, pp. 459-460).  David Norton asserted:  “’And you, be ye fruitful’ (Gen. 9:7) escapes him [Blayney], though he does change the one other example of this construction ‘and you, in any wise keep yourselves‘ (Josh. 6:18) to ‘and ye …’” (Textual History, p. 113).  Concerning Genesis 45:8, Isaac Nordheimer rendered it:  “Ye did not send me hither or it was not ye that sent me hither” (Critical Grammar of the Hebrew Language, p. 264).  Nordheimer again commented:  “Ye did not send me hither, but God, lit. ye did not send me hither for it was God who sent me” (p. 287).  The pronoun at Genesis 45:8 just as at Matthew 10:20 and Mark 13:11 should be in nominative case because a pronoun used as a subject complement after a be verb is put in that case. 

In his article, John Kenyon maintained that “in the case of turn ye (you), Blayney is less consistent” (Publication, p. 463).  Kenyon asked:  “Why should he change turn ye (Zech 9:12) to turn you, (since the Hebrew has the reflexive) but leave turn ye in Leviticus 19:4, 2 Kings 17:13, Isaiah 31:6, Jeremiah 25:5, Ezekiel 33:11, Joel 2:12, Zechariah 1:3, 4, from the same Hebrew simple form of the verb?” (Ibid.).  Kenyon asserted:  “Similarly, Blayney should consistently have changed Jeremiah 49:14 ‘Gather ye together, & come against her, …’ for ye was doubtless intended as a reflexive object.  The Hebrew form is reflexive, as it is in 1 Samuel 22:2; 2 Chronicles 20:4, gathered themselves; Ezekiel 39:17, assemble your selves” (p. 464).  Kenyon claimed:  “It is probable, therefore, that in Jeremiah 49:14 we have an objective ye in our modern Bibles” (Ibid.).  The 1560 Geneva Bible has “gather you together” at Jeremiah 49:14. 

Genesis 9:7 [see Josh. 6:18, Ezek. 36:8, 1 Cor. 14:9]
And ye, be ye {1660 London}
And you, be ye (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

Genesis 45:8 [see Matt. 10:20, Mark 13:11--it is not ye that speak; Ps. 55:13] [you sent not--1560 Geneva; it was not ye that sent--1602 Bishops]
it was not you that sent {1611, 1616, 1631 London}
it was not you that sent (1782 Aitken)
it was not ye that sent (1675 Oxford) {1660 London}
it was not you that sent (1770, 1771, 1772, 1773, 1777, 1778, 1783 Oxford) [1743, 1760, 1762, 1763B, 1765, 1767, 1768, 1769, 1778 Cambridge] (1700 MP)
it was not you that sent (1715, 1769 Oxford, SRB) [1629 Cambridge, DKJB]

Job 12:3 [as well as you--1560 Geneva; as well as ye--1602 Bishops] [compare Acts 10:47--as well as we] [compare Deut. 5:12--as well as thou] [compare Ezek. 42:11--as long as they] [compare 1 Cor. 14:18] [compare 2 Sam. 19:43--than ye]
I have understanding as well as ye {1660 London}
I have understanding as well as you (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]


   
 
Is the author really saying there is difference between "ye" and plural "you" in the KJV?

Really?
 
praise_yeshua said:
Is the author really saying there is difference between "ye" and plural "you" in the KJV?

Really?

There is. One is the object and one is the subject. Ye is the subject and you is the object.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Is the author really saying there is difference between "ye" and plural "you" in the KJV?

Really?

There was an actual difference in the case of the pronoun "ye" and of the pronoun "you" as they were used in English of that day.  The 1611 edition of the KJV did not indicate that difference consistently, sometimes having an objective case "you" where a nominative case "ye" should have been used.

Later editors of KJV editions would change or correct over 200 uses of "you" in the 1611 edition of the KJV to a nominative case "ye."

 
One reason for this thread was to answer a question raised in another thread.  This thread gives some examples in answer to that request.

On page 7 in another thread entitled "The KJV is a Roman Catholic Bible with respect to the word church"
Thomas Cassidy said:
Ye, you, and yours are plural nominative, plural objective (oblique), and plural possessive (genitive).

Thomas Cassidy said:
praise_yeshua said:
The KJV doesn't perfectly relate the "case and number" of the pronouns.

Can you give me an example?[quote]
 
bibleprotector said:
praise_yeshua said:
Is the author really saying there is difference between "ye" and plural "you" in the KJV?

Really?

There is. One is the object and one is the subject. Ye is the subject and you is the object.

You need to give more information and be intellectual consistent with your application.
 
logos1560 said:
praise_yeshua said:
Is the author really saying there is difference between "ye" and plural "you" in the KJV?

Really?

There was an actual difference in the case of the pronoun "ye" and of the pronoun "you" as they were used in English of that day.  The 1611 edition of the KJV did not indicate that difference consistently, sometimes having an objective case "you" where a nominative case "ye" should have been used.

Later editors of KJV editions would change or correct over 200 uses of "you" in the 1611 edition of the KJV to a nominative case "ye."

I do agree with with what you're saying. It does produce an intellectual honesty issue with those who try to press a grammatically perfect view the KJV of 1611.
 
praise_yeshua said:
logos1560 said:
praise_yeshua said:
Is the author really saying there is difference between "ye" and plural "you" in the KJV?

Really?

There was an actual difference in the case of the pronoun "ye" and of the pronoun "you" as they were used in English of that day.  The 1611 edition of the KJV did not indicate that difference consistently, sometimes having an objective case "you" where a nominative case "ye" should have been used.

Later editors of KJV editions would change or correct over 200 uses of "you" in the 1611 edition of the KJV to a nominative case "ye."

I do agree with with what you're saying. It does produce an intellectual honesty issue with those who try to press a grammatically perfect view the KJV of 1611.

Your accusation is not intellectually honest, because the KJB in 1611 was correct in regards to text and translation, but its grammatical exactness was not fully manifest in precision until long after 1769. No one I know of is arguing that every letter, every printing error, was correct in 1611.
 
bibleprotector said:
but its grammatical exactness was not fully manifest in precision until long after 1769.

Can you give an exact answer? When did the KJV become grammatically perfect?
 
The 1611 KJV....

...God's perfect translation...

...except in all those places where it's wrong. ;)
 
New Jersey:

Yous = singular

Yous guys = plural

Tennessee:

Y'all = singular

All y'all = plural
 
Don't forget the famous KJV "ye all"!!!

I'd love for a KJVO to try to come up with some magical meaning from such a choice of words in the KJV.

BP? What's special about "ye all"?
 
praise_yeshua said:
bibleprotector said:
but its grammatical exactness was not fully manifest in precision until long after 1769.

Can you give an exact answer? When did the KJV become grammatically perfect?

You are dealing with two different things: The KJB was correct (i.e. perfect) in its readings and in its translation in 1611.

However, because of printing errors, lack of standardisation of spelling and grammar and other needful editorial regularisation, the presentation has not been fully correct or precise until recently, that is, that we now have an electronic copy which is freed from such issues.
 
bibleprotector said:
praise_yeshua said:
bibleprotector said:
but its grammatical exactness was not fully manifest in precision until long after 1769.

Can you give an exact answer? When did the KJV become grammatically perfect?

You are dealing with two different things: The KJB was correct (i.e. perfect) in its readings and in its translation in 1611.

However, because of printing errors, lack of standardisation of spelling and grammar and other needful editorial regularisation, the presentation has not been fully correct or precise until recently, that is, that we now have an electronic copy which is freed from such issues.

Well BP do you believe this one is perfect. This is an exact copy just as it was printed. Is it perfect?

http://sceti.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?textID=kjbible&PagePosition=1
 
bibleprotector said:
... until recently, that is, that we now have an electronic copy which is freed from such issues.

Apparently, God could not get his word word-perfect until Bibleprotector started his website and presented his own edition of the KJV.

People that choose to drink from that Dixie cup are quite insane.
 
FSSL said:
bibleprotector said:
... until recently, that is, that we now have an electronic copy which is freed from such issues.

Apparently, God could not get his word word-perfect until Bibleprotector started his website and presented his own edition of the KJV.

People that choose to drink from that Dixie cup are quite insane.

Incorrect, God's Word was perfect when first inspired, i.e. when Moses or Paul wrote it down.
 
bibleprotector said:
bgwilkinson said:
Well BP do you believe this one is perfect. This is an exact copy just as it was printed. Is it perfect?

http://sceti.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?textID=kjbible&PagePosition=1

I believe that its readings and translation is perfect.

Obviously, its typography was not.

I am quit puzzled at your response. Do you not realize that it was produced by state church professionals for use in the Church of England in their liturgical services?

It was done in heavy Gothic type to give it an extra air of authority as the pulpit Bible of the government Church of England.

It was state of the art for printing in 1611.

How can you say it was perfect and in the same sentence say it had typos. Typos are not perfection.

Even if it had errors it is still a valid translation of scripture the same as any other translation that has flaws such as the Rheims NT as Miles Smith said in Translators to the Reader.

Translators to the Reader link:
http://sceti.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=6

Mistakes and errors do not invalidate a translation of scripture.
 
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