Is the modern emphasis on revival Biblical?

pastorryanhayden

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I have a theory - I think that the modern revival emphasis was never intended for the church.
That's not to say there are no revivals in the Bible - there are many of them, in the Old Testament.
That's not to say there haven't been great revivals in semi-recent history - there were several, they just didn't come as a result of "revival" emphasis.
But you do not see revival mentioned or pushed for anywhere between Matthew and Revelation.  (Some would say Acts 2 - that's a "vival" not a "revival" and if that is the standard for revival then you are not a cessationist.)
I think the modern fundamental emphasis on revival is dangerous on two fronts:
First, it fosters a kind of Christianity by crisis mentality.  Where instead of walking with God every day, people live from spiritual crisis to spiritual crisis - something I think is foreign to NT Christianity.
Second, it keeps people looking for a high emotional  revival experience that is never promised in the New Testament.
I tried to float this theory on my blog a couple of months ago, but it didn't create the kind of conversation I was hoping to have. 
So what say you my new found forum friends?
Can you show me, from the New Testament, where the revival emphasis fits in?
 
Third, it implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) pushes a 1-2-3 pray after me "salvation" mentality where the emphasis is on the numbers of people "saved" and not the continued sanctification of a set-apart group of individuals acting together in community for the betterment of all creation.
 
I have nothing against revivals. Just because its not mentioned explicitly as a "revival"... .there are several similar events in the NT.

Act 8:14  Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

While you may not say this is a "revival".... I can say that many who believe in revival are looking for a similar event as did happen in Acts 8.

At the same time, I am aware of the dangers of so called "revivals". If you have ever studied the life of Jonathan Edwards, you would know that Edwards felt the same way. There is a difference between emotionalism of many "revivals" and a sincere acceptance of the "Word of God". I wouldn't throw men like Jonathan Edwards in with men like Finney. I would personally love to be a part of a genuine "movement" of God or revival. I've seen it a couple times in my life. Not many.

Many "revivals" are nothing more than a means to get a "friend" (who just happens to be a evangelist) a speaking engagement so he can get paid. It also a means for "pastors" to earn a little extra money on the side or to go to a nice "vacation area". I personally have known several men who booked "revivals" based on when "hunting season" began in certain areas of the country. This one of the reasons some people/groups support missionaries in exotic location. We all know Tahiti and Bermuda needs the "Word of God". Not saying they don't.... :)

Needless to say, its rather silly to use 2 Chronicles 7:14 as a stepping off point for "revival".
 
christundivided said:
I have nothing against revivals. Just because its not mentioned explicitly as a "revival"... .there are several similar events in the NT.

Act 8:14  Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

While you may not say this is a "revival".... I can say that many who believe in revival are looking for a similar event as did happen in Acts 8.

At the same time, I am aware of the dangers of so called "revivals". If you have ever studied the life of Jonathan Edwards, you would know that Edwards felt the same way. There is a difference between emotionalism of many "revivals" and a sincere acceptance of the "Word of God". I wouldn't throw men like Jonathan Edwards in with men like Finney. I would personally love to be a part of a genuine "movement" of God or revival. I've seen it a couple times in my life. Not many.

Many "revivals" are nothing more than a means to get a "friend" (who just happens to be a evangelist) a speaking engagement so he can get paid. It also a means for "pastors" to earn a little extra money on the side or to go to a nice "vacation area". I personally have known several men who booked "revivals" based on when "hunting season" began in certain areas of the country. This one of the reasons some people/groups support missionaries in exotic location. We all know Tahiti and Bermuda needs the "Word of God". Not saying they don't.... :)

Needless to say, its rather silly to use 2 Chronicles 7:14 as a stepping off point for "revival".

Most of this ^
 
CU
I don't have anything against revivals either.  I have something against a revival EMPHASIS.  I pray that God will bring a revival to our land, I don't think that our country can survive for much longer if God doesn't, I just don't think God ever intended revival to be an emphasis in the New Testament church, and I think the introduction of it muddies the waters and opens the door for a lot of seriously questionable doctrine and practice.
As per your comments on evangelists, I agree.  I don't think the biblical "evangelists" were anything like most modern "evangelists" who would be better labelled "itinerant revivalists."  My personal view of the Biblical office of "evangelist" is that they were missionaries.  Because of that, I'm very wary of bringing "evangelists" into our church.
I have a good friend who stepped down from the pastorate and was an evangelist for a year and a half, he told me that he made $60,000 in his first year as an evangelist.  He's now a pastor probably making a third of that.
 
Revivals are an amazing thing, when they happen.  A week long series of meetings placed on a calendar is not necessarily a revival, just because we call it one.  There are revivals in the NT, the church at Corinth was in desperate need of revival and we see Paul wrote a letter to them in effort to begin the revival.  So, recognizing that we are backslidden is step one, allowing the Word to correct us is step two, repenting is step three and thus we have revival.  Hopefully, you seek revival every day in your Christian life.

I have spoken with people who have been a part of actual revivals where the Spirit of God moved in amazing, marvelous ways that was impossible to comprehend.  Those meetings were special.  I find a pattern in the Bible for revival that may and should be put into place periodically by the church.

Our modern adaptation of inviting a friend to speak for a week, putting it on the calendar and telling everyone we are having revival meetings is not really a revival.  Screaming does not make you a preacher of revival.  Being obnoxious does not make you a preacher of revival.  Believing yourself to be better than the church and pastor where you are preaching does not make you a preacher of revival.
 
pastorryanhayden said:
CU
I don't have anything against revivals either.  I have something against a revival EMPHASIS.  I pray that God will bring a revival to our land, I don't think that our country can survive for much longer if God doesn't, I just don't think God ever intended revival to be an emphasis in the New Testament church, and I think the introduction of it muddies the waters and opens the door for a lot of seriously questionable doctrine and practice.
As per your comments on evangelists, I agree.  I don't think the biblical "evangelists" were anything like most modern "evangelists" who would be better labelled "itinerant revivalists."  My personal view of the Biblical office of "evangelist" is that they were missionaries.  Because of that, I'm very wary of bringing "evangelists" into our church.
I have a good friend who stepped down from the pastorate and was an evangelist for a year and a half, he told me that he made $60,000 in his first year as an evangelist.  He's now a pastor probably making a third of that.

The do agree that there is entirely too many people looking for the next great "movement" of God. Many come to church just to get entertained or to get their "praise on". While I am reluctant to say anything against anyone praising God for pretty much anything..... I am well aware that church is nothing more than a good "ball game" for some. I've known preachers that preach "revivals" that bring their own "cheerleaders" with them. If they are pastors, then its usually a church member or two that comes along for the ride to make sure "their pastor" is getting the "respect" due him. I'm thinking of one man right now that use to do this all around my area. At least... .until he was caught with a girl in the church he'd been "hooked" up with during all his "revivals".

I have known some that travel many miles following all the "revivals" in the area. Some will drive several hours each way several times in the week just be a part of a "revival". I do wish that the average church member had a strong enough relationship with God that they didn't have to go to "revival" to get their "God fix". Some of the greatest experiences I've ever had in this life was when I was alone with God. Its not always about a "group" setting.
 
"christundivided said:
Act 8:14  Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

[quote author=Binaca Chugger"]
Revivals are an amazing thing, when they happen.  A week long series of meetings placed on a calendar is not necessarily a revival, just because we call it one.  There are revivals in the NT, the church at Corinth was in desperate need of revival and we see Paul wrote a letter to them in effort to begin the revival.  So, recognizing that we are backslidden is step one, allowing the Word to correct us is step two, repenting is step three and thus we have revival.  Hopefully, you seek revival every day in your Christian life.
[/quote]

So, I asked for NT examples of Revival and I got a passage about evangelism and reference to an entire book of the Bible that is corrective. 

Here is what I'm getting at, the modern IFB revival emphasis has been so dominant for so long, we can't even talk about normal Christian living, about pastoral rebuke or evangelism without using the R word.  Those passages aren't about revival, they about Christians doing what Christians are supposed to do.  I'm preaching through 1 Cor. now, Paul tells them to stop fornicating, he corrects some of their ideas about marriage and tongues, he commands them to put someone out of the church, but nowhere does He call for a revival.

You have to look at the New Testament with revival colored glasses to find it anywhere in there.  It's not a conclusion one would come to if they didn't come from a revivalistic context.
 
pastorryanhayden said:
"christundivided said:
Act 8:14  Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

[quote author=Binaca Chugger"]
Revivals are an amazing thing, when they happen.  A week long series of meetings placed on a calendar is not necessarily a revival, just because we call it one.  There are revivals in the NT, the church at Corinth was in desperate need of revival and we see Paul wrote a letter to them in effort to begin the revival.  So, recognizing that we are backslidden is step one, allowing the Word to correct us is step two, repenting is step three and thus we have revival.  Hopefully, you seek revival every day in your Christian life.

So, I asked for NT examples of Revival and I got a passage about evangelism and reference to an entire book of the Bible that is corrective. 
[/quote]

View it every how you like.... Yet, you can not ignore the message that Samaria had received the "Word of God" prompted the apostles to send Peter and John. Call it whatever you want to call it. Call it evangelism. Call them missionaries. Regardless of what you call it.... many would call this "revival". Yet, you should realize that "rapture" isn't found in the Bible and I am almost certain you have no problem with the "rapture".... Make an application.

So define it how ever you want. Build a sermon out of it. Enjoy yourself. History teaches that Johnathon Edwards clearly considered the "Great Awakening" to be a revival. I don't think you can add anything to what Johnathon Edwards had to say about "revival".

 
So define it how ever you want. Build a sermon out of it. Enjoy yourself. History teaches that Johnathon Edwards clearly considered the "Great Awakening" to be a revival. I don't think you can add anything to what Johnathon Edwards had to say about "revival".
Again, I'm not denying the existence of revivals.  I agree with JE that the great awakening was a revival. I also think the 2nd GA, the haystack prayer meetings and early missionary movement, the businessmen's prayer meetings of the late 1800s, and the welsh revival of the early 1900s were all genuine revivals. See the OP.
I do believe in the rapture.  The rapture is a concept that, although not named, is TAUGHT explicitly in the New Testament. 
I'm saying that revival as an emphasis, as a theme, isn't taught explicitly in the New Testament.  You can't take a historical record of early evangelistic record and use it as a scriptural basis for NT revival.  You can't take the fact that 1 Cor. is rebuke and use it as a scriptural basis for revival.  Neither of those passages are teaching on revival.  You have to read revival into those passages to get it.
That doesn't mean revivals don't exist.  That doesn't mean that revivals aren't necessary.
What it does mean is that God, in his infinite wisdom, didn't choose revival as a theme for his instruction on Christian living, and that preacher who talk constantly about revival don't have New Testament scripture to back them up.
 
Revival, Sunday Night At 7:00

I always loved those signs! I wondered if they had God check his schedule first before renting the tent.  ;D
 
Re-vive.  To bring to life again.  Psalm 51:10 is revival: Create in me a clean heart o God and renew a right spirit within me.  See also Eph 4:22-24 and Titus 3:5.  When we repent and seek for God to renew a right spirit within us, we are seeing personal revival.  I dare say that an active Christian should experience revival daily.

As far as the wide spread movement, you cannot force others to repent.  You can only work within yourself to be in a place to be used of God to help others come to a place of repentance.  Whether this is in the workplace, on the street, at a family function or during a week long meeting matters not.

Seeing many people come to salvation during a short period is more properly an awakening, or quickening (to use the KJV terminology) because they are being born spiritually.
 
pastorryanhayden said:
So define it how ever you want. Build a sermon out of it. Enjoy yourself. History teaches that Johnathon Edwards clearly considered the "Great Awakening" to be a revival. I don't think you can add anything to what Johnathon Edwards had to say about "revival".
Again, I'm not denying the existence of revivals.  I agree with JE that the great awakening was a revival. I also think the 2nd GA, the haystack prayer meetings and early missionary movement, the businessmen's prayer meetings of the late 1800s, and the welsh revival of the early 1900s were all genuine revivals. See the OP.
I do believe in the rapture.  The rapture is a concept that, although not named, is TAUGHT explicitly in the New Testament. 
I'm saying that revival as an emphasis, as a theme, isn't taught explicitly in the New Testament.  You can't take a historical record of early evangelistic record and use it as a scriptural basis for NT revival.  You can't take the fact that 1 Cor. is rebuke and use it as a scriptural basis for revival.  Neither of those passages are teaching on revival.  You have to read revival into those passages to get it.
That doesn't mean revivals don't exist.  That doesn't mean that revivals aren't necessary.
What it does mean is that God, in his infinite wisdom, didn't choose revival as a theme for his instruction on Christian living, and that preacher who talk constantly about revival don't have New Testament scripture to back them up.

I think you are referring to revival as an event on a calendar or an emotional motivator used by manipulative men.  I am referring to revival as true repentance of the Christian.  When a multitude of Christians come to a place of true repentance, history calls the event a great revival.
 
I hesitate at your qualifier "modern," but otherwise I would answer with a resounding, "YES!"  An emphasis on "revival" or awakening or zeal for God, soul-winning spirit, Holy Spirit filling, or repentance from sin is definitely needed, and certainly demonstrated in the New Testament.

But all that is called "revival" is not necessarily what is true revival.  Using fleshly methods never has produced spiritual results, and never will.  They that truly worship the Living God, Who is a spirit, must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

New Testament support?  5 of the 7 churches in Revelation are good for starters.  Especially is this true of Sardis, the dead church.  Christ's multiple admonitions to these churches to "repent" and do things differently, to walk as they did once before, and especially to "strengthen the things which remain, which are ready to die," (Rev 3:2) demonstrate that Christ, the Lord of the Church, places heavy emphasis on reviving.

Corinthians does rebuke some things, a whole host of them.  But in ending his first letter to them, the Apostle attempts to jar them awake!

1Co 15:34  Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

In chapter 5, they had been arrogant and prideful of their tolerance to sin in their midst.  Now Paul emphasizes what should be their shame.  They are in need of revival!  And as a result of that emphasis, we see in 2Corinthians 6 that they got one.

2Cor 6:8-13
8  For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
9  Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10  For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11  For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort,
what carefulness it wrought in you,
yea, what clearing of yourselves,
yea, what indignation,
yea, what fear,
yea, what vehement desire,
yea, what zeal,
yea, what revenge!
In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

12 ¶  Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.
13  Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all.

These are very clearly revival RESULTS lived out in the Corinthian believers!  Paul emphasized an error, and they sorrowed, repented, and acted to clear themselves with zeal.

Should we emphasize revival?  Are we content, then, with what we currently have?  Afraid of moving from crisis to crisis?  In Corinth, there was a crisis of fornication within the church and that treated as a badge of honor!  The entire first epistle to Corinth was "moving from crisis to crisis."  We need to deal with issues instead of settling back on our lees and hoping for people to do better.  Today, there is a crisis of wickedness in the pulpits, the classrooms, and churches of all denominations, stripes, and sizes.  Are we complacent? Or will we recognize that we NEED a refreshing and emphasize it?  Shall we just continue to sin that grace may abound? Are we happy while the basic structure of the family is destroyed and perversion springs from every closet?  While the defenseless are destroyed in the womb?  Are we to be comfortable while liquor, recreational drugs, lewdness, debauchery, and violence explodes all around us?

In John 4, the 12 disciples left Christ alone and went to feed their bellies.  His meat, His need was to deal with a sinful woman coming to draw water at a well.  No, the LORD did not hang out a "REVIVAL" banner or promote "At The Well the Next 3 Nights, 7 pm Nightly," but when He met resistance from the woman who first threw her racial differences at him, then her different religious background, He addressed her sinful condition and spoke of spiritual matters, instead of acting with apathy and dispassionate tolerance.  As a result, 12 men went to a city and brought back sack lunches; one redeemed woman went to that same city and turned out men for a revival.  Now, which do we want to be today? 

Because some perform in error, do we resign ourselves from what is right?  When men promote "soul-winning" with an easy-prayerism methodology like a vacuum cleaner saleman, should we then toss out the Great Commission as something that cannot be done?  No, instead we do what is right.  If liberals use liberty as an occasion to the flesh, should we ride that pendulum the full arc to legalistic bondage? No, it is better to do right rightly in the face of those who do right wrongly rather than not doing right at all.

To the Ephesian church, Paul emphasized revival.
Eph 5:14  Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

We need to wake up lethargic churches!  Not by method, not by rote, but certainly by shining forth the bright light of Christ. 

Paul would remind Timothy as an individual to "stir up the gift of God." (2 Tim 1:6) Peter in his first epistle thought it was the right thing while he was still living to "stir up" fellow believers (2Pet 1:13).  Today, too often, believers are merely "shaken, not stirred."

Hebrews 11 reveals that faith is a dynamic.  Flawed men were applauded by God, not for their errors which do not please Him, but for their faith which did please Him and which also "subdued kingdoms, wrought righeousness, obtained promises..." etc.  Sure sounds like the kind of revival I would like to see.  Not the mere motions of going through another meeting, but the honesty of seeking the LORD in the prayer closet and proclaiming His truth with power, so that those promises of power He has given are appropriated through faith.  It was not mere mechanism that such as Leonard Ravenhill would promote, but real prayer and getting hold of God.  btw... There is a God, and yes, He does still answer prayer, He does still work miracles, and He does still send revival in answer to the heart cries of men like those who may have been Old Testament saints, but were still mere mortal men "of like passions" as we are today.

Finney may have been mistaken in some ways, but he was used of God.  I would gladly trade three John MacArthur's and toss in an extra Phil Johnson or two for a Charles Finney, today ... or that great Revivalist Charles Spurgeon, or perhaps a preaching fireball like John Wesley, certainly a Jonathan Edwards, or a Nate Saint, or a D.L. Moody, or a Billy Sunday, or a Christmas Evans, or an Reuben Archer Torrey, or give me another in the spirit of Whitfield, or perhaps Hudson Taylor, or Sam Jones, or B.R. Lakin, or Vance Havner or an A.W. Tozer.  We may not need to be overzealous, but we certainly need some zeal. 

You may see dangers in emphasizing revival, but there is greater danger in ignoring its need.  The smug, self-serving complacent attitudes of today rob our churches of fiery zeal and motivating power turning them into vast wastelands of dry, stale, abandoned  ghost towns.  The LORD Jesus Christ Himself did not merely let the coming power of the Holy Ghost happen on Pentecost, but repeatedly gave His disciples instruction to wait for that promise, and told them of the blessings that the Comforter would bring.  Yes, my friend, we do much need to do the same and emphasize it where we can.  We may have everlasting life, but we need more abundant life.  Peter said we were lively stones.  I prefer to emphasize the lively; some, I fear, prefer to emulate mere stones.
 
PappaBear said:
I hesitate at your qualifier "modern," but otherwise I would answer with a resounding, "YES!"  An emphasis on "revival" or awakening or zeal for God, soul-winning spirit, Holy Spirit filling, or repentance from sin is definitely needed, and certainly demonstrated in the New Testament.

But all that is called "revival" is not necessarily what is true revival.  Using fleshly methods never has produced spiritual results, and never will.  They that truly worship the Living God, Who is a spirit, must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

New Testament support?  5 of the 7 churches in Revelation are good for starters.  Especially is this true of Sardis, the dead church.  Christ's multiple admonitions to these churches to "repent" and do things differently, to walk as they did once before, and especially to "strengthen the things which remain, which are ready to die," (Rev 3:2) demonstrate that Christ, the Lord of the Church, places heavy emphasis on reviving.

Corinthians does rebuke some things, a whole host of them.  But in ending his first letter to them, the Apostle attempts to jar them awake!

1Co 15:34  Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

In chapter 5, they had been arrogant and prideful of their tolerance to sin in their midst.  Now Paul emphasizes what should be their shame.  They are in need of revival!  And as a result of that emphasis, we see in 2Corinthians 6 that they got one.

2Cor 6:8-13
8  For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
9  Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10  For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11  For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort,
what carefulness it wrought in you,
yea, what clearing of yourselves,
yea, what indignation,
yea, what fear,
yea, what vehement desire,
yea, what zeal,
yea, what revenge!
In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

12 ¶  Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.
13  Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all.

These are very clearly revival RESULTS lived out in the Corinthian believers!  Paul emphasized an error, and they sorrowed, repented, and acted to clear themselves with zeal.

Should we emphasize revival?  Are we content, then, with what we currently have?  Afraid of moving from crisis to crisis?  In Corinth, there was a crisis of fornication within the church and that treated as a badge of honor!  The entire first epistle to Corinth was "moving from crisis to crisis."  We need to deal with issues instead of settling back on our lees and hoping for people to do better.  Today, there is a crisis of wickedness in the pulpits, the classrooms, and churches of all denominations, stripes, and sizes.  Are we complacent? Or will we recognize that we NEED a refreshing and emphasize it?  Shall we just continue to sin that grace may abound? Are we happy while the basic structure of the family is destroyed and perversion springs from every closet?  While the defenseless are destroyed in the womb?  Are we to be comfortable while liquor, recreational drugs, lewdness, debauchery, and violence explodes all around us?

In John 4, the 12 disciples left Christ alone and went to feed their bellies.  His meat, His need was to deal with a sinful woman coming to draw water at a well.  No, the LORD did not hang out a "REVIVAL" banner or promote "At The Well the Next 3 Nights, 7 pm Nightly," but when He met resistance from the woman who first threw her racial differences at him, then her different religious background, He addressed her sinful condition and spoke of spiritual matters, instead of acting with apathy and dispassionate tolerance.  As a result, 12 men went to a city and brought back sack lunches; one redeemed woman went to that same city and turned out men for a revival.  Now, which do we want to be today? 

Because some perform in error, do we resign ourselves from what is right?  When men promote "soul-winning" with an easy-prayerism methodology like a vacuum cleaner saleman, should we then toss out the Great Commission as something that cannot be done?  No, instead we do what is right.  If liberals use liberty as an occasion to the flesh, should we ride that pendulum the full arc to legalistic bondage? No, it is better to do right rightly in the face of those who do right wrongly rather than not doing right at all.

To the Ephesian church, Paul emphasized revival.
Eph 5:14  Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

We need to wake up lethargic churches!  Not by method, not by rote, but certainly by shining forth the bright light of Christ. 

Paul would remind Timothy as an individual to "stir up the gift of God." (2 Tim 1:6) Peter in his first epistle thought it was the right thing while he was still living to "stir up" fellow believers (2Pet 1:13).  Today, too often, believers are merely "shaken, not stirred."

Hebrews 11 reveals that faith is a dynamic.  Flawed men were applauded by God, not for their errors which do not please Him, but for their faith which did please Him and which also "subdued kingdoms, wrought righeousness, obtained promises..." etc.  Sure sounds like the kind of revival I would like to see.  Not the mere motions of going through another meeting, but the honesty of seeking the LORD in the prayer closet and proclaiming His truth with power, so that those promises of power He has given are appropriated through faith.  It was not mere mechanism that such as Leonard Ravenhill would promote, but real prayer and getting hold of God.  btw... There is a God, and yes, He does still answer prayer, He does still work miracles, and He does still send revival in answer to the heart cries of men like those who may have been Old Testament saints, but were still mere mortal men "of like passions" as we are today.

Finney may have been mistaken in some ways, but he was used of God.  I would gladly trade three John MacArthur's and toss in an extra Phil Johnson or two for a Charles Finney, today ... or that great Revivalist Charles Spurgeon, or perhaps a preaching fireball like John Wesley, certainly a Jonathan Edwards, or a Nate Saint, or a D.L. Moody, or a Billy Sunday, or a Christmas Evans, or an Reuben Archer Torrey, or give me another in the spirit of Whitfield, or perhaps Hudson Taylor, or Sam Jones, or B.R. Lakin, or Vance Havner or an A.W. Tozer.  We may not need to be overzealous, but we certainly need some zeal. 

You may see dangers in emphasizing revival, but there is greater danger in ignoring its need.  The smug, self-serving complacent attitudes of today rob our churches of fiery zeal and motivating power turning them into vast wastelands of dry, stale, abandoned  ghost towns.  The LORD Jesus Christ Himself did not merely let the coming power of the Holy Ghost happen on Pentecost, but repeatedly gave His disciples instruction to wait for that promise, and told them of the blessings that the Comforter would bring.  Yes, my friend, we do much need to do the same and emphasize it where we can.  We may have everlasting life, but we need more abundant life.  Peter said we were lively stones.  I prefer to emphasize the lively; some, I fear, prefer to emulate mere stones.

AMEN!
 
Papabear,
First, welcome to the forum and thank you for taking the time to write such a well reasoned rebuttal of what I said.  Judging by what you wrote, if you are a preacher I'd love to listen to your sermons.  I really don't disagree with you on anything but Semantics and your view of some of the preachers listed near the end.
You listed a bunch of scriptures, all of them important scriptures, that had to do with repentance.  (Some of them were calls to wake up and calls to faith, but most were repentance.)  I have no problem with saying, America (or the church, or Christianity, etc.) is in great need of repentance, that they need to wake up, that we are suffering from a lack of faith.  All of those things are clearly biblical.  It's absolutely true that we are surrounded by lethargic Christians and that repentance is a great need in this day and hour. 
Repentance is not the same thing as revival.  Words mean something.  Repentance is a repeated theme in the New Testament, revival is not.  My belief in the sufficiency of scripture leads me to think that if we just emphasize what God's Word emphasizes, then He will bring the results He desires.
My problem with emphasizing revival (as it has been done for the last 150 years or so) is that "revival" as a goal becomes a replacement for the things God's Word says will bring a revival - repentance, faith and generally Christians getting back to what they were supposed to be doing in the first place.  God's prescription for the church is not a steady diet of "revival" but a steady diet of God's Word, which will bring about repentance and faith and will wake people up.  I think that over time the experience of "revival" becomes the goal instead of obedience to God's Word.

As per the preachers you listed: they are a pretty mixed bag:  Moody, Finney, Torrey, Spurgeon, Nate Saint, Tozer, Sunday, etc.  I'll admit, I don't know much about Christmas Evans or B.R. Lakin.  But the rest of them seem to have one thing in common: zeal.
But zeal isn't the same thing as revival either. Of all of Spurgeon's thousands of recorded sermons, not one of them has "revive" or "revival" in the subject.  Whitfield didn't emphasize "revival" either, both of those preachers emphasized repentance.
Zeal is important.  I need more zeal.  I actually don't believe a person can be "overzealous."  The problem is zeal without knowledge or zeal for zeal's sake (what Spurgeon called "painted fire.")

I think we are in agreement that we need a zealous move towards repentance and renewed faith. I just think it needs to come through teaching and preaching the scriptures on repentance and faith, not an emphasis on "revival."  When we add concepts as emphasis to the scriptures, they become a trojan horse for all kinds of bad ideas and practice.  I would say that one of the reasons that we have a biblically illiterate, doctrinally bankrupt, powerless church today is because the "revival" theme became an easy shortcut for what the scriptures said would bring it.

 
pastorryanhayden said:
My problem with emphasizing revival (as it has been done for the last 150 years or so) is that "revival" as a goal becomes a replacement for the things God's Word says will bring a revival - repentance, faith and generally Christians getting back to what they were supposed to be doing in the first place. God's prescription for the church is not a steady diet of "revival" but a steady diet of God's Word, which will bring about repentance and faith and will wake people up.  I think that over time the experience of "revival" becomes the goal instead of obedience to God's Word.

This ^^
 
I appreciate the welcome to the forum.  Thank you for your kind words.  I trust our LORD to give you grace for the work tomorrow and you have a great LORD's Day. 

I think you are parsing words on this revival emphasis issue.  You say that words mean things and that revival and repentance or zeal are not the same thing.  You mentioned Spurgeon and Whitfield as not preaching on "revival."  Earlier in this thread, Binaca Chugger posted a reasonable definition of "revival" that I would agree with.

Binaca Chugger said:
Re-vive.  To bring to life again.  Psalm 51:10 is revival: Create in me a clean heart o God and renew a right spirit within me.  See also Eph 4:22-24 and Titus 3:5.  When we repent and seek for God to renew a right spirit within us, we are seeing personal revival.  I dare say that an active Christian should experience revival daily.

The word "revived" is used twice in the New Testament, speaking of resurrection, or coming to life, or renewing of the spirit.  BC's use of "To bring to life again" would be supported by the Biblical use of the term.  But I hasten to point out that normally, in Romans 14:9, we would equate it with the specific word, "resurrection."  I believe you will find that the reverse is also true in that when you look for "new life," "renew," "refresh," or "zeal" you will find many of those passages used identically with what is truly revival.  You may recall that in the first line of my post, I used several words to rename revival.

[quote author=PappaBear]An emphasis on "revival" or awakening or zeal for God, soul-winning spirit, Holy Spirit filling, or repentance from sin is definitely needed, and certainly demonstrated in the New Testament.[/quote]

My references were not solely about repentance.  Especially is this true regarding the Church at Sardis which needed to strengthen the things about to die.  Ditto regarding Corinth and the revival attitudes that repentance brought. 

There is an attempt to somehow divorce "revival" from repentance.  Though I have not been around the whole of the last 150 years (and I suspect that you have not, either), I have been to a lot of revivals and read much about the subject over the last few decades.  Most who have dealt with it use "repentance" interchangeably with "revival."  Even in this thread, someone mentioned 2Chron 7:14 as an often used text for preaching on revival, and that is about repentance and prayer, without mention of the word "revival."

2Chron 7:14  If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Whitfield may not have used the word, but was one of the great revivalists, preaching in the open air, preaching daily, travelling to the American continent some 7 times and to every one of the colonies to preach.  His preaching was marked by emotional outbursts, and he gave invitations to sinners to "come."  Identifying himself as a Calvinist, he nevertheless was a founder of the Methodists and actually provoked John Wesley to become an open air preacher to reach the masses.  Spurgeon's copiously recorded messages may lack the word, "revival," but the venerable Baptist is claimed by modern divines of all stripes because of his effective preaching that made such a difference in people in his day. 

You are right in that words mean things.  What seems to be lacking is what you mean by the word, "revival."  Surely, you are not just looking for the specific word in a NT text in order to substantiate it?  Consider this, repentance is a subject repeatedly dealt with in the New Testament.  The word, "repent," is frequently used to describe salvation. (i.e. Christ calling sinners to repentance, or joy in heaven over one sinner that repents, or the dispute of the rich man in hell over what would cause his brothers to repent.)  Yet, in the Gospel of John, one of the most evangelistic books, the specific word does not ever appear.  This is even more significant because John's Gospel will deal heavily with John The Baptist, whose central message was one of repentance!  This is often used by those who want to deny repentance in the gospel as evidence that it is not necessary.  But it should be remembered that, although the word "repent" is absent from John's Gospel, the idea is not.  (REF 5:14; 8:11, 34, 39, 42; 12:42,43; 16:8,9)  Reading or listening to those who have spoken on the subject of revival (Ravenhill, Finney, Tozer, et al.) you will find that the emphasis is on repentance, and as well the filling of the Holy Spirit, prayer, and a closer walk with God.  So it is an error to attempt to sanitize an emphasis on revival from repentance.

"Revival" truly is NOT the mere scheduling or publication of a meeting, or some favorite personality, or specific practical methods to produce empty "results."  Revival IS the refreshing of God's people through the power of the Holy Ghost, calling them to repentance and an active relationship with the LORD.  Real revival is a change from the ordinary of our life to the extraordinary living of a spirit filled life.

This is becoming too wordy already, so I will leave you with this last thought.  You emphasize the sufficiency of scripture and just "teaching and preaching" the scriptures.  Please beware the emptiness of mere knowledge and repetition of Bible truths.  The Scribes and Pharisees were very well acquainted with words of God, and copied and promoted them, but were devoid of spirit.  An older preacher once pointed out to me that in responding to the Sadducees, Christ said, " Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?"  It is important to be doctrinally right, but it is as important that we also be spiritually powerful.  You cannot rightly have one without the other.

2Cor 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
  Remember that "revival" in the NT is the same as "resurrection," which is this giving of life.  In the early part of my ministry, I found that something was missing.  I was doctrinally correct, and doing the right things, but joyless, apathetic and listless.  We have many churches and a host of believers who are much the same, though they dot every fundamental i and cross every fundamental t in doctrine.  Paul hinted at it when he warned Timothy of these perilous times when men are "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." (2Tim 3:5)  The concrete forms of doctrinal purity are worthless when absent life-giving spiritual power.  An effective ministry will not merely recite the words of faith in a rote fashion, but will seek, AND EMPHASIZE, God's power through His Spirit.

Thank you for your time in reply.  *Hat tip </:eek:)


 
Welcome back Pappa. Hope you stick around my friend.


 
admin said:
Right on! Finneyism started the modern mess.


The Calvinist whipping boy. He gets blamed for everything


;)
 
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