Israel Is Not Israel
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If not, then who is?
There's Israel, then there's the Real Israel, those of the faith of Abraham.
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The State of Israel is a secular republic, not the theocratic nation of the Old Testament.
I had heard years ago that 80% of Israelis were atheistic. That may or may not be the case today. But that just means there's less faith in today's Israel than the ancient nation at its worst.
As Bob Jones V rightly says, biblical "Israel" is the people of God--faithful Jews and Gentiles from all nations.
I had heard years ago that 80% of Israelis were atheistic. That may or may not be the case today. But that just means there's less faith in today's Israel than the ancient nation at its worst.
As Bob Jones V rightly says, biblical "Israel" is the people of God--faithful Jews and Gentiles from all nations.
So, who is God dealing with in Romans 9-11 and who is He going to deal with during the tribulation?
I am currently preparing a verse-by-verse study of Romans with our small group and this passage really stuck out at me as I started into chapters 9-11:
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
I believe the bolded phrase here is key to everything else said in chapters 9-11 of Romans. It is also nigh to impossible to avoid that dastardly "E" word and it will be obvious to all that you are trying to hide something if you either pretend it does not exist or try to explain it away! Time to put on your "Big Boy" pants and be the "Bible Believer" you claim to be!
The conclusion I have come to is that God has his ELECT from both Israel and the Gentiles. Those of Jewish descent should never presume to be "Elect" simply because they are blood descendants of Abraham and those who were "Raised in the Church" should never presume to be "Elect" because they have a praying mother or grandmother! All are called to make their calling and election sure!
Regarding the present day state of Israel, they may be Jewish by ancestry (Abraham's seed according to the flesh) but they are largely a secular society who is perhaps a "Jew Outwardly" but we understand that it is the "Circumcision of the Heart" that truly makes one an heir of Abraham's promises!
I believe that Israel's presence to be a modern day miracle and the case can be made that Ez 11:17 was fulfilled in 1948 but the following verses (18-19) certainly have not! The "Heart of Flesh" denotes regeneration and it appears that the Jews will be regenerated on a national level and when this happens, they will certainly acknowledge Christ as Messiah and the "One whom they have pierced!" When will this happen? When the fulness of the Gentiles are come (Rom 11:25). When will this happen? None of us have the slightest clue but I am guessing it would be some time after their great victory in the war against Gog in Ez 38-39 whenever this is supposed to take place.
Either way, I believe it is proper for us to stand with Israel but we should probably stay out of their way and not foist some silly "rules of engagement" that will put them into a perpetual "no-win stalemate" situation that seems to be the United States/United Nations way of fighting wars!
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
I believe the bolded phrase here is key to everything else said in chapters 9-11 of Romans. It is also nigh to impossible to avoid that dastardly "E" word and it will be obvious to all that you are trying to hide something if you either pretend it does not exist or try to explain it away! Time to put on your "Big Boy" pants and be the "Bible Believer" you claim to be!
The conclusion I have come to is that God has his ELECT from both Israel and the Gentiles. Those of Jewish descent should never presume to be "Elect" simply because they are blood descendants of Abraham and those who were "Raised in the Church" should never presume to be "Elect" because they have a praying mother or grandmother! All are called to make their calling and election sure!
Regarding the present day state of Israel, they may be Jewish by ancestry (Abraham's seed according to the flesh) but they are largely a secular society who is perhaps a "Jew Outwardly" but we understand that it is the "Circumcision of the Heart" that truly makes one an heir of Abraham's promises!
I believe that Israel's presence to be a modern day miracle and the case can be made that Ez 11:17 was fulfilled in 1948 but the following verses (18-19) certainly have not! The "Heart of Flesh" denotes regeneration and it appears that the Jews will be regenerated on a national level and when this happens, they will certainly acknowledge Christ as Messiah and the "One whom they have pierced!" When will this happen? When the fulness of the Gentiles are come (Rom 11:25). When will this happen? None of us have the slightest clue but I am guessing it would be some time after their great victory in the war against Gog in Ez 38-39 whenever this is supposed to take place.
Either way, I believe it is proper for us to stand with Israel but we should probably stay out of their way and not foist some silly "rules of engagement" that will put them into a perpetual "no-win stalemate" situation that seems to be the United States/United Nations way of fighting wars!
There are many who use the opening question of this thread as a jumping off point to be critical of our support of a Jewish state.
I too, recognize that the current Jewish state is not part of the "elect", however, I reject all notions that try to strip today's Israel of its special place in God's eye. This begins to smack of replacement theology which, if you're the "Bible Believer" you claim to be you must also reject.
Absolutely! I may be Calvinistic but I reject the Reformed types who espouse the "replacement theology" mindset and have nothing but contempt for the modern state of Israel! I believe that Israel has a future in God's overall plan and that God will one day fulfill all of his Messianic prophecies where Christ will reign from the throne of David. It is for this reason I stubbornly hold onto the Dispensational Premillennial view.
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If this is true, (first sentence) does that mean then, that God will not protect this state of Israel today like He once would?
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I don't believe so. Throughout the prophets, Israel is told they will be expelled from the land but they will not be utterly forsaken. During their time before they were driven out of the land, they didn't do well pleasing God. When their Messiah came to them, they rejected Him and as a consequence, their national identity was destroyed when the temple was razed in 70AD. Thus began the diaspora. However, are the Jews still around? How many times did someone try to wipe them out? Who survived and who perished whenever that happened? The Jew still remains. Even though they are not acknowledging God; oh, some pay Him lip service, but by and large Israel is currently a secular state. Yet God is still preserving them because He said He would. There is no other reason why He has remained faithful to them. When Paul lamented the state of his fellow Israelites saying he would wish himself accursed if it would result in their salvation, why would he express such wishes if God was done with them? No, they don't have the blessings we know but they have the blessing of God's preservation and the promise of ultimate restoration.
I believe that God's common grace has been upon the Israeli people like no other nation in modern history since becoming their own nation again in 1948. They have experienced many miraculous things like the "six day war" and are thriving economically even though the nations around them have nothing but hostile intentions. The goodness of God leads us to repentance.
It is no guarantee that God will continue to do so or that Israel may suffer a few setbacks before they truly become "Israel," are given a "Heart of Flesh" and acknowledge as Messiah the "One whom they have pierced."
We should pray for the peace of Israel and remember that though they have been our enemies for the sake of the Gospel, regarding the election, they are beloved for the sake their forefathers (those who have died in faith and gone on before)!
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"Replacement theology" is a misnomer, because the Reformed position is that the church is the continuation of Israel, and is what Israel was always intended to be. "You shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," God says to the Israelites (Exod. 19:6); also "The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession" (Deut. 7:6). Yet Peter tells the church that they are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession" (1 Pet. 2:9).
Paul begins Romans 9 by saying "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel" (Rom. 9:6). In chapter 11 he describes true Israel as being the patriarchs (vv. 16-18) plus the remnant of believing Jews, plus believing Gentiles (19, 24) and minus unbelieving Jews (20). God has not failed Israel because a remnant still exists to receive his promises, and the promises made to Abraham's offspring are fulfilled in Christ (Gal. 3:16). Paul hinges his argument on the fact that "offspring" is singular, not plural. The real Israel are those who share the faith of Abraham (Gal. 3:7); they are his offspring (Gal. 3:29).
Israel was chosen, so that God could give them his Law, and they would be a model nation for the rest of the world:
"See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’" (Deut. 4:5-6)
Through Israel came the Law; through the Law came knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20); also from Israel came the Messiah, the Saviour from sin, not for the Jews only, but for all the nations. "I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth," says Isaiah (49:6). When the Jews rejected the light of the Gospel, Paul brought it to the Gentiles, and they rejoiced (Acts 13:46-48).
This is the purpose for which Israel was chosen. Now that Christ has come into this world, he is the light (John 1:9), and so are his followers (Phil. 2:15). The purpose of the nation of Israel has been fulfilled.
This was standard Christian theology for about the first 1800 years of church history. Then the Dispensationalists came along and ... well ... replaced it. Ironic.
The Israel of God is a cultured olive tree. The branches abide in it by faith in Christ. Not all the natural branches were really part of it, and were cut off because of unbelief, and believing wild branches were grafted in. It was always the plan that some wild olive branches would be grafted in. When all the elect of the gentiles are grafted in, then all Israel (of which the believing gentiles are part) is saved. (Romans 11)
One cannot bring Revelation to the epistles, but the epistles must be brought to Revelation. There is no future for an Israelite kingdom on earth.
One cannot bring Revelation to the epistles, but the epistles must be brought to Revelation. There is no future for an Israelite kingdom on earth.
I don't think I disagree with you but do you believe that there is a future role for Israel as a nation and as a distinct people?
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The nation is fulfilling its role right now: to bring salvation to "every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages" (Rev. 7:9). The analogy of Romans 11 portrays Israel as a fig tree, with many of its natural branches remaining, branches from other trees grafted in, and some of the dead branches grafted back in as well.
The tree is cultivated and reshaped; it is not cut down and replaced. This is the nation of Israel in its final intended form: the Church, the "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16), consisting of Jew and Gentile side by side drawing their nourishment from the same source.
The language of Romans 11 strongly suggests a future wave of salvation of ethnic Jews: God has not forgotten the people whom he has chosen (2); they are hardened against their salvation, but their rejection means salvation for the Gentiles (11) that rejection is temporary (25); a holy jealousy for the mercy shown to the Gentiles will provoke the Jews to seek that same mercy for themselves (11); their inclusion in the New Covenant will mean all that much more blessing for the rest of the world (12). And thus "all Israel" shall be saved (26).
So there remains hope for ethnic Jews who will acknowledge their Messiah and turn to him. But for the nation-state of Israel, its purpose has already been fulfilled.
I don't know what you'd call me. Reformed. Charismatic. And I see that not all Israel are Israel. Those who are believers are the real Israel. But I also see in Romans a future for the genetic people of Israel.
Definitely. I hold to the position that Genesis 12:5 is applicable for today too.
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Baptist Renegade posted this to another thread. Since I'd already commented on these topics in this one, I thought I'd copy the video over here and add a few more thoughts:
I didn't know until watching this yesterday that Friel was a Dispensationalist, which goes to show how balanced he is in his approach to Scripture.
Anyway, a few minutes in he says that supersessionists, who say that the promises to Israel are fulfilled in the church, need to make a biblical case for it. So, fine.
Let's start with a simple one:
On this passage, Paul comments in Galatians 3:
The promises made to Abraham about being a great nation and a blessing to all the nations have their fulfillment in his singular descendent, Jesus Christ. He can't be clearer about this: he even makes a point of hinging his argument on a quibble about "offspring" being singular rather than plural. (And I in turn could quibble with the translators of the ESV for making up a silly word like "offsprings" when perfectly good alternatives were already available.)
The promises made to Abraham--which, as an aside, were all fulfilled in the old covenant--find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ and the church. Remember also that Paul is writing to Gentile Christians, and assuring them that they are the "heirs according to promise," because they share Abraham's faith: "There is neither Jew nor Greek ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (28).
Jeremiah proclaims the coming of a new covenant: internal, not external; everlasting, not temporary; with the faithful, not the unfaithful.
Jesus proclaims the advent of this covenant:
Paul reaffirms it:
Jeremiah said the new covenant to be made with the "house of Israel and the house of Judah." Jesus's words to his Jewish disciples at the Last Supper say nothing about this, either for nor against. But Paul reminds the church that they are parties to it--and I again point out that the Corinthian church was a Gentile one.
The author of Hebrews adds:
How is it that God can "remember their sins no more"? Because Christ "offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins," and there is no longer any need for continual priestly offerings. He then "sat down at the right hand of God." His priestly work is completed. The atonement is a done deal. The new covenant is a present reality in the church, not awaiting fulfillment in a future restored state of Israel in some age yet to come.
The book of Hebrews might be the single best commentary on the use of the Old Testament in the New--and there's no way to read Hebrews and come away with the idea that the church has no place in Old Testament prophecy.
Last one, and this time I'm going to work from the New Testament to the Old. Peter says:
This is a litany of titles, given by Peter to the church, though they are quotations of, or allusions to, the Old Testament, where they were spoken of the nation of Israel:
Todd Friel wants explicit biblical argument. Well, it's pretty explicit.
I really don't like to rag on my Dispensationalist friends. I grew up in those circles and am a member of an officially Dispensationalist church (albeit a fairly latitudinarian one). But, man, there are times when the hermeneutic is just so ... obviously ... wrong.
I didn't know until watching this yesterday that Friel was a Dispensationalist, which goes to show how balanced he is in his approach to Scripture.
Anyway, a few minutes in he says that supersessionists, who say that the promises to Israel are fulfilled in the church, need to make a biblical case for it. So, fine.
Let's start with a simple one:
"I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice." (Gen. 22:17-18)
And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. (Gen. 15:6)
On this passage, Paul comments in Galatians 3:
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (7-9)
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. (16)
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (29)
The promises made to Abraham about being a great nation and a blessing to all the nations have their fulfillment in his singular descendent, Jesus Christ. He can't be clearer about this: he even makes a point of hinging his argument on a quibble about "offspring" being singular rather than plural. (And I in turn could quibble with the translators of the ESV for making up a silly word like "offsprings" when perfectly good alternatives were already available.)
The promises made to Abraham--which, as an aside, were all fulfilled in the old covenant--find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ and the church. Remember also that Paul is writing to Gentile Christians, and assuring them that they are the "heirs according to promise," because they share Abraham's faith: "There is neither Jew nor Greek ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (28).
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” (Jer. 31:31-34)
Jeremiah proclaims the coming of a new covenant: internal, not external; everlasting, not temporary; with the faithful, not the unfaithful.
Jesus proclaims the advent of this covenant:
"This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." (Luke 22:20)
Paul reaffirms it:
In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." (1 Cor. 11:25).
Jeremiah said the new covenant to be made with the "house of Israel and the house of Judah." Jesus's words to his Jewish disciples at the Last Supper say nothing about this, either for nor against. But Paul reminds the church that they are parties to it--and I again point out that the Corinthian church was a Gentile one.
The author of Hebrews adds:
Every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
"This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,"
then he adds,
"I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." (Heb. 10:11-17)
How is it that God can "remember their sins no more"? Because Christ "offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins," and there is no longer any need for continual priestly offerings. He then "sat down at the right hand of God." His priestly work is completed. The atonement is a done deal. The new covenant is a present reality in the church, not awaiting fulfillment in a future restored state of Israel in some age yet to come.
The book of Hebrews might be the single best commentary on the use of the Old Testament in the New--and there's no way to read Hebrews and come away with the idea that the church has no place in Old Testament prophecy.
Last one, and this time I'm going to work from the New Testament to the Old. Peter says:
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (1 Pet. 2:9-10)
This is a litany of titles, given by Peter to the church, though they are quotations of, or allusions to, the Old Testament, where they were spoken of the nation of Israel:
- "The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession" (Deut. 7:6; 14:2)
- "You shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" (Exod. 19:6)
- "Proclaim that his name is exalted" (Isa. 12:4)
- "I will turn the darkness before them into light" (Isa. 60:1-3)
- "I will say to Not My People, 'You are my people'" (Hos. 2:23)
- "I will have mercy on No Mercy" (Hos. 2:23)
Todd Friel wants explicit biblical argument. Well, it's pretty explicit.
I really don't like to rag on my Dispensationalist friends. I grew up in those circles and am a member of an officially Dispensationalist church (albeit a fairly latitudinarian one). But, man, there are times when the hermeneutic is just so ... obviously ... wrong.
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My reason for making the original post was not to push his dispensational view nor was it Todd's reason for making the video in the first place. It was to bring to the forefront, the proper Christan response to the current crisis in Israel.
The one verse that comes to mind (for me) is Romans 11:28 - As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.