John MacArthur's Opinion of BJU and Fundamentalism

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illinoisguy

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Interesting article and comments regarding John MacArthur's experience as a student at Bob Jones University - he is negative about BJU and the "legalism" there. I am posting this for informational purposes only - this posting is not intended as a defense of or criticism of MacArthur or BJU - make up your mind about them.

MacArthur on Fundamentalism | SHARPER IRON

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I agree with and disagree with many things about BJU and about Mac! Anyone can attack an institution or pastor to draw a response.. How about the truth for once? I don't think either side will tell it.
 
When I attended BJU in 1971, it was a racist school. Would not allow single black students to enroll. There were 5 guys in my dorm, one from Toronto Canada, one from Pa, one from Ga, one from Ala and me from Tampa Florida. The one from Canada was a soph, the rest of us were fr. We took a vote on whether BJU should accept black students. The final was 3-2. To accept black students, the three for were us southern freshmen, the yankees were the no votes
 
4everfsu said:
When I attended BJU in 1971, it was a racist school. Would not allow single black students to enroll. There were 5 guys in my dorm, one from Toronto Canada, one from Pa, one from Ga, one from Ala and me from Tampa Florida. The one from Canada was a soph, the rest of us were fr. We took a vote on whether BJU should accept black students. The final was 3-2. To accept black students, the three for were us southern freshmen, the yankees were the no votes
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I know they were racist to a degree...but I know too many students from BJU, and I find it hard to take your statement as truth with no evidence to back it up We're just supposed to take your word on this??? I'm a "Yankee," being born in Indiana and raised in Illinois. I was raised in a "sundown" town where blacks, Asians, etc, we supposed to be over the bridge back into Peoria County by 5:30 PM. I didn't like that, but, it was pretty much a fact of life. Many graduates from our church went to BJU, and I considered it. But, as I stated, I would need far more than just your word on what BJU was like in 1971. It just doesn't jive with some of what I've heard from others.
 
AverageJoe said:
I know they were racist to a degree...but I know too many students from BJU, and I find it hard to take your statement as truth with no evidence to back it up We're just supposed to take your word on this??? I'm a "Yankee," being born in Indiana and raised in Illinois. I was raised in a "sundown" town where blacks, Asians, etc, we supposed to be over the bridge back into Peoria County by 5:30 PM. I didn't like that, but, it was pretty much a fact of life. Many graduates from our church went to BJU, and I considered it. But, as I stated, I would need far more than just your word on what BJU was like in 1971. It just doesn't jive with some of what I've heard from others.
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Let me remind everyone that in the 1960 our country was still a very racist country. This is not a defense of our countries positions or BJU's positions at the time, it's just reality.
Remember the Civil rights acts was not passed until 1964 & 1965, The voters right act was not passed until 1965, the Supreme Court decision of Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections happened in 1966, the fair housing act did not pass until 1968. In the 1960's schools, public parks, theaters, public pools, cemeteries, asylums, jails and neighborhoods were still segregated in the south. This should be an indictment on our country not BJU. It's not surprising it would take a few more years for a private college in South Carolina to adjust it's policies. Those born after 1960 find these policies hard to believe, but before the 1960's they were in every facet of life in the south.
 
sword said:
Let me remind everyone that in the 1960 our country was still a very racist country. This is not a defense of our countries positions or BJU's positions at the time, it's just reality.
Remember the Civil rights acts was not passed until 1964 & 1965, The voters right act was not passed until 1965, the Supreme Court decision of Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections happened in 1966, the fair housing act did not pass until 1968. In the 1960's schools, public parks, theaters, public pools, cemeteries, asylums, jails and neighborhoods were still segregated in the south. This should be an indictment on our country not BJU. It's not surprising it would take a few more years for a private college in South Carolina to adjust it's policies. Those born after 1960 find these policies hard to believe, but before the 1960's they were in every facet of life in the south.
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Again, the "times" may have been filled with racism, and BJU may have had racism to some degree, but I can only go by the people I know who attended that institution, and my interaction with them. I was born in the early 60s, and am very aware of what our country was/is and how BJU operates/operated at that time. As I stated, without more than just your story, I can't say I believe it...but, I'm not going to say I don't, either. ANY institution from that time would be capable of doing such a thing. I know some Christian institutions were against blacks and whites dating, but, I've never found one that will acknowledge that they refused to let a single, black person enroll. This isn't calling you a liar...I'm just stating that documentation from the institution or other students at that time would be helpful.
 
AverageJoe said:
Again, the "times" may have been filled with racism, and BJU may have had racism to some degree, but I can only go by the people I know who attended that institution, and my interaction with them. I was born in the early 60s, and am very aware of what our country was/is and how BJU operates/operated at that time. As I stated, without more than just your story, I can't say I believe it...but, I'm not going to say I don't, either. ANY institution from that time would be capable of doing such a thing. I know some Christian institutions were against blacks and whites dating, but, I've never found one that will acknowledge that they refused to let a single, black person enroll. This isn't calling you a liar...I'm just stating that documentation from the institution or other students at that time would be helpful.
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I never said any racist things happened there in the 1970's, 1990,s or yesterday. I'm just reminding everyone to consider the context and the era we are discussing.

I think it was 4everfsu who was making reference to their past.
 
sword said:
I never said any racist things happened there in the 1970's, 1990,s or yesterday. I'm just reminding everyone to consider the context and the era we are discussing.

I think it was 4everfsu who was making reference to their past.
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You're correct. My mistake. :) I apologize.
 
In March, 1972, I attended the annual Bible Conference at Bob Jones University (as a visitor, not a student). After one sermon, a friend of mine told me (to my horror) that he was going to go up to the stage and complain to Dr. Bob Jones III about the policy of not admitting black students. Dr. Bob was evidently ready for such gripes, and he gave my friend a policy statement - to the best of my recollection, it said something to the effect that if black students were admitted, they might file civil rights complaints against BJU, and they could not take a chance on having to deal with such problems, so it was better to not admit blacks. (I recall seeing black visitors in the BJU Art Museum, so at least they could visit there).

By 1983, times had changed. I believe that was the year that I attended a rally for BJU at Bethel Baptist Church in Schaumburg, Illinois. At that time, the IRS case to strip BJU of tax exemption, because of their ban on interracial dating, was before the U.S. Supreme Court. Pastor Frank Bumpus stated that if BJU lost the case, then churches such as Bethel Baptist might be stripped of their property tax exemptions. (That hasn't happened to any widespread degree anywhere). One of the speakers at the pro-BJU rally was a black male BJU student who assured us that he had been treated well at BJU and had experienced no discrimination there. His appearance at the rally was featured on local Chicago-area TV news. So, at that time, blacks could now attend BJU, but interracial dating was still banned (at least, it was banned if one of the partners was black).

Well, the rest is history. BJU lost their case at the Supreme Court and they lost their tax exemption for many years. In 2000, Dr. Bob Jones III told Larry King that he was ending the BJU ban on interracial dating - he said that the ban was never really very important to them, which raises the question, if it wasn't important, why did they take it all the way to the Supreme Court? I believe it was understood that the ban, while in effect, did not apply to whites dating, or marrying, Asians. I remember a white-Asian mixed couple coming to our church on deputation as missionaries for Gospel Fellowship Missions, a BJU-associated missions board - I think they were BJU grads.

I am no expert on racial policies at Southern colleges in the mid 20th Century, but I suspect that almost all colleges in the South at that time had policies that today would rightly be considered racist (consider Old Miss, Oxford, Mississippi, in 1962, for instance). BJU held on to their outdated (and unscriptural) racial policies longer than most other Southern colleges did.
 
illinoisguy said:
In March, 1972, I attended the annual Bible Conference at Bob Jones University (as a visitor, not a student). After one sermon, a friend of mine told me (to my horror) that he was going to go up to the stage and complain to Dr. Bob Jones III about the policy of not admitting black students. Dr. Bob was evidently ready for such gripes, and he gave my friend a policy statement - to the best of my recollection, it said something to the effect that if black students were admitted, they might file civil rights complaints against BJU, and they could not take a chance on having to deal with such problems, so it was better to not admit blacks. (I recall seeing black visitors in the BJU Art Museum, so at least they could visit there).

By 1983, times had changed. I believe that was the year that I attended a rally for BJU at Bethel Baptist Church in Schaumburg, Illinois. At that time, the IRS case to strip BJU of tax exemption, because of their ban on interracial dating, was before the U.S. Supreme Court. Pastor Frank Bumpus stated that if BJU lost the case, then churches such as Bethel Baptist might be stripped of their property tax exemptions. (That hasn't happened to any widespread degree anywhere). One of the speakers at the pro-BJU rally was a black male BJU student who assured us that he had been treated well at BJU and had experienced no discrimination there. His appearance at the rally was featured on local Chicago-area TV news. So, at that time, blacks could now attend BJU, but interracial dating was still banned (at least, it was banned if one of the partners was black).

Well, the rest is history. BJU lost their case at the Supreme Court and they lost their tax exemption for many years. In 2000, Dr. Bob Jones III told Larry King that he was ending the BJU ban on interracial dating - he said that the ban was never really very important to them, which raises the question, if it wasn't important, why did they take it all the way to the Supreme Court? I believe it was understood that the ban, while in effect, did not apply to whites dating, or marrying, Asians. I remember a white-Asian mixed couple coming to our church on deputation as missionaries for Gospel Fellowship Missions, a BJU-associated missions board - I think they were BJU grads.

I am no expert on racial policies at Southern colleges in the mid 20th Century, but I suspect that almost all colleges in the South at that time had policies that today would rightly be considered racist (consider Old Miss, Oxford, Mississippi, in 1962, for instance). BJU held on to their outdated (and unscriptural) racial policies longer than most other Southern colleges did.
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Thank you! I was waiting for someone to FINALLY post this information! Many like to "tiptoe through the tulips" and never really give proof! In the mid to late 1970s when I was considering BJU, I spoke with Dr. Bob, and he was positive that things at the university would change. But, he wasn't totally in favor of it, because, just as you pointed out in your post...he was sure there would be civil rights lawsuits. He was quite keen on human nature, and the rise of the humanistic ideology that was going to invade the university if he wasn't diligent in protecting it. I didn't necessarily agree with him on his stance, but, he made many good points. This position was one reason that I didn't go to BJU. I had dated for a short time, a black girl, and also an Asian girl. This was totally unacceptable in my home church. It wasn't until the mid-1980s that we even had a black Baptist evangelist come and speak in our home church. I was always against this type of bigotry.
 
AverageJoe said:
In the mid to late 1970s when I was considering BJU, I spoke with Dr. Bob, and he was positive that things at the university would change.
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I'll bet that "things at the university would change after GWB made a stump speech there during the 2000 presidential election, resulting in considerable public backlash against racist policies still in place 20+ years later" wasn't what he meant by that.
 
sword said:
Let me remind everyone that in the 1960 our country was still a very racist country. This is not a defense of our countries positions or BJU's positions at the time, it's just reality.
Remember the Civil rights acts was not passed until 1964 & 1965, The voters right act was not passed until 1965, the Supreme Court decision of Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections happened in 1966, the fair housing act did not pass until 1968. In the 1960's schools, public parks, theaters, public pools, cemeteries, asylums, jails and neighborhoods were still segregated in the south. This should be an indictment on our country not BJU. It's not surprising it would take a few more years for a private college in South Carolina to adjust it's policies. Those born after 1960 find these policies hard to believe, but before the 1960's they were in every facet of life in the
Click to expand...

AverageJoe said:
I know they were racist to a degree...but I know too many students from BJU, and I find it hard to take your statement as truth with no evidence to back it up We're just supposed to take your word on this??? I'm a "Yankee," being born in Indiana and raised in Illinois. I was raised in a "sundown" town where blacks, Asians, etc, we supposed to be over the bridge back into Peoria County by 5:30 PM. I didn't like that, but, it was pretty much a fact of life. Many graduates from our church went to BJU, and I considered it. But, as I stated, I would need far more than just your word on what BJU was like in 1971. It just doesn't jive with some of what I've heard from others.
Click to expand...

Evidence of proof, ask the black students that attended during 1971. You will find no single black students at that time, male or female. If I could loan you my BJU yearbook, you could look it up for yourself to find them and you will not find them. Just like in 1971, we could not have a football on campus because student could get hurt playing even tho we have students play intramural soccer ending up with knee injuries. How do I know I was an orderly at the campus hospital. Oh do you need proof BJU had a campus hospital since you will not take my word on it? Also BJU played no intercollegiate sports because we were told we are in the world not of the world. Need more proof or again not to take my word. You can take your disbelief over what I have said and stick it where the sun does not shine my christian brother.
 
4everfsu said:
Evidence of proof, ask the black students that attended during 1971. You will find no single black students at that time, male or female. If I could loan you my BJU yearbook, you could look it up for yourself to find them and you will not find them. Just like in 1971, we could not have a football on campus because student could get hurt playing even tho we have students play intramural soccer ending up with knee injuries. How do I know I was an orderly at the campus hospital. Oh do you need proof BJU had a campus hospital since you will not take my word on it? Also BJU played no intercollegiate sports because we were told we are in the world not of the world. Need more proof or again not to take my word. You can take your disbelief over what I have said and stick it where the sun does not shine my christian brother.
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Stop being obtuse. I don't believe you ARE a Christian brother if you're wanting me to 'sodomize" myself. Sure you're not related to/or involved with lacepanties0311?
 
AverageJoe said:
Stop being obtuse. I don't believe you ARE a Christian brother if you're wanting me to 'sodomize" myself. Sure you're not related to/or involved with lacepanties0311?
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I do not take kindly to be called a liar nor do I think you are a Christian brother when you call someone out as a liar. I do not care what your sexual preference happens to be. If any one knows me personnaly on here you can ask Tarheel Baptist. Lighten up Francis, you are not that special, even if you think your posts are.
 
Proclaiming guilt without context is a dangerous thing. It is far better to judge oneself instead using the light we now have in studying historical outcomes so we can avoid the pitfalls and benefit from their growth . Judging history without context is a Marxist practice.
 
4everfsu said:
I do not take kindly to be called a liar nor do I think you are a Christian brother when you call someone out as a liar. I do not care what your sexual preference happens to be. If any one knows me personnaly on here you can ask Tarheel Baptist. Lighten up Francis, you are not that special, even if you think your posts are.
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I've not called you a liar. But, I will now since you've posted an OBVIOUS, INTENTIONAL lie. Your father, Satan, is calling. you need to go answer the phone...he's waiting. Movie references don't impress me, I think you need to drop the "s" in your screen name...it fits you better.
 
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