John Piper on Guns

[pbuckhunt]

www.desiringgod.org/.../should-christians-be-encouraged-to-a

 

[pbuckhunt]

Fixed link
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/should-christians-be-encouraged-to-arm-themselves

 

[praise_yeshua]

www.desiringgod.org/.../should-christians-be-encouraged-to-a

A Moron can't help but be a moron.

Ironically.... he sounds more like Boyd than I'm sure he ever wanted to be.....

I'd about bet he's got a gun and will use it. If not.... then he's just made himself an easy target.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'd also add....

Only through strength can the enemy be defeated. Not only did the OT saints defend Israel. They defended themselves. They defended their families.

We shouldn't go looking for trouble.... but when trouble comes looking for you and your family.....

You shouldn't say.... "Its Jesus time" and run to be executed. I have a wife. Children. I earn wages and provide support to them in a Godly manner to ensure their success in life. I'll defend myself and them to the last inch of strength I have in these old dead bones....

Cowards run to meet Jesus and leave behind loved ones that sure wish they had them back...

If I'm going to meet Jesus.... I pray its not with an empty hand watching my wife and daughter getting raped..... and who knows what-else.

When Jesus returns.... He's not just going to disarm everyone and leave them emptied handed. He's going to destroy all those that oppose Him. I think Jesus just might be telling us something.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

When Jesus returns.... He's not just going to disarm everyone and leave them emptied handed. He's going to destroy all those that oppose Him. I think Jesus just might be telling us something.

Yes, He will disarm.

Isaiah:

They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

Micah:

He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore;

And there are those believers who believe in bringing the Kingdom of God right now that are doing the same.

Peacemaker program turns guns into garden tools

 

[praise_yeshua]

When Jesus returns.... He's not just going to disarm everyone and leave them emptied handed. He's going to destroy all those that oppose Him. I think Jesus just might be telling us something.

Yes, He will disarm.

Isaiah:

They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

Micah:

He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore;

And there are those believers who believe in bringing the Kingdom of God right now that are doing the same.

Peacemaker program turns guns into garden tools

That's after he conquers mankind.

Did you forget that part?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

When Jesus returns.... He's not just going to disarm everyone and leave them emptied handed. He's going to destroy all those that oppose Him. I think Jesus just might be telling us something.

Yes, He will disarm.

Isaiah:

They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

Micah:

He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore;

And there are those believers who believe in bringing the Kingdom of God right now that are doing the same.

Peacemaker program turns guns into garden tools

That's after he conquers mankind.

Did you forget that part?

And Jesus doesn't need guns to do that.  He'll have stuff like, oh, mountains to toss into the ocean.  You know.  Small arms stuff. 

 

[rsc2a]

Only through strength can the enemy be defeated.

The cross is a pretty good example of what that strength looks like. It didn't look like this either.

Not only did the OT saints defend Israel. They defended themselves. They defended their families. - PY

[quote author=praise_yeshua]We shouldn't go looking for trouble.... but when trouble comes looking for you and your family.....

You shouldn't say.... "Its Jesus time" and run to be executed. I have a wife. Children. I earn wages and provide support to them in a Godly manner to ensure their success in life. I'll defend myself and them to the last inch of strength I have in these old dead bones....

Cowards run to meet Jesus and leave behind loved ones that sure wish they had them back...[/quote]

All those saints fed to the lions, lit up as torches, and crucified while praising God....bunch of cowards for trusting in Him. :

[quote author=praise_yeshua]When Jesus returns.... He's not just going to disarm everyone and leave them emptied handed. He's going to destroy all those that oppose Him. I think Jesus just might be telling us something.[/quote]

Yes, He was explicit in what He is telling us:

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

 

[T-Bone]

Not as cut and dried as it may seem.  Piper seems to be talking about persecution for the cause of Christ, not just for personal protection. Pacifism seems great as long as you have others to protect you.  The Bible does not condemn serving in the military or police  for Christians, nor does it condemn taking care of your family. Part of providing for your family is protection.

Now to the other side...the Scripture does teach us not to take up arms to defend ourselves from persecution for the cause of Christ.  It says we will be persecuted for this and that the Lord will avenge.

Seems like a fine line...but I believe one could build a biblical case around these.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Now to the other side...the Scripture does teach us not to take up arms to defend ourselves from persecution for the cause of Christ.  It says we will be persecuted for this and that the Lord will avenge.

If someone attacks me and fails to mention they're doing it because I'm Christian, then I'll assume it's okay to give him a lead infusion. 

Seriously, IMO, the Bible is talking about Christian persecution such as takes place in China, Arab countries, etc -- that is, explicitly being persecuted for the cause of Christ.  Your reaction is a WITNESS to your FAITH in the midst of anti-Christian tribulation. That has nothing to do with defending yourself against a tyrannical government, or protecting yourself and your family.

By the way, this is one reason why I find the notion of a pre-trib rapture to be unsustainable.  It's not the main reason -- the main reason is that the Bible clearly teaches otherwise, and also teaches that the great tribulation is focused primarily on Israel.  But I also note that tribulation is the greatest opportunity for Christians to be a witness to remaining faithful in the face of oppression.  To be yanked out of such a thing would be tantamount to soldiers going AWOL just when the battle gets dangerous. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

The cross is a pretty good example of what that strength looks like. It didn't look like this either.

The world knows the Gospel of the Cross. They could care less about it. They have rejected it for over two thousand years. Jesus doesn't like this. In fact, it makes Him angry. Which is why He will judge those that reject Him with fiery destruction and endless punishment.

You can appeal to the cross all you want. Yes. The cross matters.... but what do you do with this could care less about the cross?

All those saints fed to the lions, lit up as torches, and crucified while praising God....bunch of cowards for trusting in Him. :

Nope. I said nothing about them....

However, a coward that refuses to defend his own family over some idea that he's going to meet Jesus is rather stupid. Even moronic. He has a responsibility to defend his family. Down to the last breath.

Pointing the cross while Muhammad and his friends are raping your wife and daughter is..... NEGLECT.

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

You don't love me. You never have. You don't love me now. Don't throw that crap around when you can't do it yourself.

Yes. I can love my enemy and kill him for seeking to kill my family...... at the same time. Loving your enemy isn't about letting them do whatever they want with your family.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not as cut and dried as it may seem.  Piper seems to be talking about persecution for the cause of Christ, not just for personal protection. Pacifism seems great as long as you have others to protect you.  The Bible does not condemn serving in the military or police  for Christians, nor does it condemn taking care of your family. Part of providing for your family is protection.

Now to the other side...the Scripture does teach us not to take up arms to defend ourselves from persecution for the cause of Christ.  It says we will be persecuted for this and that the Lord will avenge.

Seems like a fine line...but I believe one could build a biblical case around these.

There is not one single verse that forbids the owning of a sword in the Scripture. Not one. Owning a sword isn't living by the sword.

Again, we shouldn't go looking for trouble. However, there is nothing wrong with defending oneself or family from others.

IF Christians hadn't literally fought to protect Christianity.... it wouldn't have survived.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Again, we should go looking for trouble.

Freudian slip? 

But I agree 100%.  Peter's mistake was initiating an attack.  He wasn't defending himself. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

Again, we should go looking for trouble.

Freudian slip? 

But I agree 100%.  Peter's mistake was initiating an attack.  He wasn't defending himself.

Yep. I messed up.

I fixed it.

Yes. That was Peter's mistake. He was even told to take his sword by Christ.

 

[rsc2a]

The cross is a pretty good example of what that strength looks like. It didn't look like this either.

The world knows the Gospel of the Cross. They could care less about it. They have rejected it for over two thousand years.

So?

[quote author=praise_yeshua]You can appeal to the cross all you want. Yes. The cross matters.... but what do you do with this could care less about the cross?[/quote]

Is this English?

[quote author=praise_yeshua]

All those saints fed to the lions, lit up as torches, and crucified while praising God....bunch of cowards for trusting in Him. :

Nope. I said nothing about them....

However, a coward that refuses to defend his own family over some idea that he's going to meet Jesus is rather stupid. Even moronic. He has a responsibility to defend his family. Down to the last breath. [/quote]

So you said something about them, but then denied it, then said something about them the very next sentence.

[quote author=praise_yeshua]

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

You don't love me. You never have. You don't love me now. Don't throw that crap around when you can't do it yourself. [/quote]

I see you still are as good at reading minds as ever (which is to say you are terrible at it).

[quote author=praise_yeshua]IF Christians hadn't literally fought to protect Christianity.... it wouldn't have survived. [/quote]

Are you completely ignorant of early church history?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Is this English?

but what do you do with those who could care less about the cross?

So you said something about them, but then denied it, then said something about them the very next sentence.

Nope. Only your small minds thinks otherwise.

I see you still are as good at reading minds as ever (which is to say you are terrible at it).

You've never shown it. Not once. Prove you love me...

Are you completely ignorant of early church history?

Nope. I know it better than you do.

 

[FSSL]

Shoot 'em then pray with them as they slip into eternity.

SelfDefense is part of our government's legal system for us to protect ourselves and our family.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Shoot 'em then pray with them as they slip into eternity.

SelfDefense is part of our government's legal system for us to protect ourselves and our family.

Or pray for them before hand and shoot them if you must.

 

[FSSL]

... and pray that there are no stray bullets

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]Are you completely ignorant of early church history?

Nope. I know it better than you do.[/quote]

If you say this...

If Christians hadn't literally fought to protect Christianity.... it wouldn't have survived. - PY

...and claim such is truth, this is just another example of where reality crashes into PY logic and reality loses again.