King James Bible

North

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If Christians did not have the King James Bible for 1500 years AND the motives of King James creating a state Bible (KJV) based mainly on an Anglican Bible (the Bishop's Bible) were because he despised the Geneva Bible (which helped fan the flames of the Protestant revolution and questioned the authority of kings) my questions are:

1. Why is the King James Bible the Bible of choice by the IFB when the Geneva Bible or Tyndale's New Testament is available and not touched by the Crown's bias? Is it tradition? Is it ignorance of previous versions and a reaction to the "per"versions? Is there some truth I am missing?
2. What verses prove the King James Bible is God's choice over its predecessors the Tyndale New Testament or Geneva Bible, etc.? (I am not even referring to any Bible versions post King James Bible)
 
1. Beats me. I don't even think it's very good, though it was state-of-the-art at the time it was published. But I'm Anglican, not Baptist, so it being of Anglican origin would, if anything, be a plus... but a very, very minor one.
2. I have no reason to believe God has a favorite version, or if He does, which one it might be.
 
North said:
If Christians did not have the King James Bible for 1500 years AND the motives of King James creating a state Bible (KJV) based mainly on an Anglican Bible (the Bishop's Bible) were because he despised the Geneva Bible (which helped fan the flames of the Protestant revolution and questioned the authority of kings) my questions are:

1. Why is the King James Bible the Bible of choice by the IFB when the Geneva Bible or Tyndale's New Testament is available and not touched by the Crown's bias? Is it tradition? Is it ignorance of previous versions and a reaction to the "per"versions? Is there some truth I am missing?
2. What verses prove the King James Bible is God's choice over its predecessors the Tyndale New Testament or Geneva Bible, etc.? (I am not even referring to any Bible versions post King James Bible)
What did King James' bias towards anything have to do with the actual translation?
Did he sit on  one of the committees?
Wasn't he a Scott, Presbyterian in bias, and therefore leaning towards the Geneva, if anything?
The division was among the UK's Bishops. 
Remember, he was the King of  formerly Catholic Countries, and that in the not so distant past.
2 of his domains were still RCC,
France and Ireland.
He wanted to unify the UK in one book, so he made bitter enemies to work together on the translation.

Show some bias towards anything Anglican, Catholic, etc, in the AV, and then we'll talk.
Maryolatry....nope
Communion of the Saints....uh-uh
Indulgences...hardly
Paedobaptism....zilch
Works Salvation...the oppo
Nicolaitan Church leadership?...nope, in fact the elder rule is described as the "presbytery" in the AV.

So establish some Anglophile bias, by quoting the Scripture that exposes it, and we can all discuss it.
Right now, your asking us to defend a whim, and hence it is an impossible task.

Anishinaabe
 
FTR, The Tyndale is the Word of God.
English changed drastically, afterward.  Tyndale was an outlaw, when he died, so his Bible couldn't be the official legal Realm Bible, but certainly it was heavily relied on by the translators of the AV.
The Reina Valera was translated in 1602, from the same bunch of documents, gathered in Luther's Castle.  It is the Word of God in Spanish.

I see the KJV as mostly an update to the Tyndale, with a few added readings, that he wasn't privy to.

Bottom line is, there was a huge strife over the Bishops Bible/ Great Bible/etc., and they unlike our modern society, decided to eliminate the 7 versions available at the time, by getting every available qualified scholar , from very opposing viewpoints, in on one single, unifying text.

Too bad we aren't smart enough to see that, now.

Webster tried, someone else tried around 2000, in South Dakota.

Too many people make too much money playing the odds now. Everyone's a scholar.
Everyone is a translation committee of one.

So we'll probably never again have a single unifying update to the common English Bible.

It's sad, and detrimental to the cause, but then, so is a lot of things.

Anishinaabe
 
prophet said:
Everyone's a scholar.
Everyone is a translation committee of one.

I'm not sure that's all bad.  It' sort of like, "We report, you decide."  Yeah, you have to do some hard work getting to the point where you can make intelligent decisions, but I don't see anything wrong with making them. 
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
prophet said:
Everyone's a scholar.
Everyone is a translation committee of one.

I'm not sure that's all bad.  It' sort of like, "We report, you decide."  Yeah, you have to do some hard work getting to the point where you can make intelligent decisions, but I don't see anything wrong with making them.
You have to, now, out of self defense.

Anishinaabe

 
North said:
1. Why is the King James Bible the Bible of choice by the IFB when the Geneva Bible or Tyndale's New Testament is available and not touched by the Crown's bias? Is it tradition? Is it ignorance of previous versions and a reaction to the "per"versions? Is there some truth I am missing?

You're mainly right. It's partly tradition, and partly reaction.

Tradition, because when the fundamentalist movement began in the early 20th century, the KJV was the English Bible. The RV (1885) and ASV (1901) were of good quality and accuracy, but they didn't gain any popularity with the general churchgoing public. And there wasn't another English Bible translation of note until the RSV in 1954. So for the first 50 years of fundamentalism, it was the KJV or nothing.

Reaction, because when newer Bibles finally did start coming out, they were based on different sources than the KJV had: by which I mean not only the Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament, but also the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Egyptian papryi, which changed our understanding of both the Hebrew and Greek of the original Scriptures. Fundamentalists, being the conservative bunch that they are, mistrusted these new innovations - and still do.
 
Prophet asked, "What did King James' bias towards anything have to do with the actual translation?"

This could take a while to answer. I will only give one example of a High-Church bias that I believe represents both Bancroft and James. Bancroft wanted to control the church and James wanted to control the country. This could be accomplished by firmly establishing the hierarchal form of government in the Church of England. The word Church could mean whatever "The Church" and her bishops wanted it to mean, just as Catholics had done with the Latin. They had not translated it only transliterated it. Ecclasiam.

I am of course referring to rule number 3 that forced the translators to use church when rendering ἐκκλησίαν.

Tyndale wanted people to understand that it meant congregation and not a religious organization or building. That ran counter to the top down control required to operate the "Church" as a man controlled organization.

Here is a short list of English Bibles that translated ἐκκλησίαν and Latin Ecclesiam as congregation and church.

I will build my church KJV Matthew 16:18.

1380 Wiclif  I schal bilde my chirche

1534 Tyndale  I wyll bylde my congregacion

1535 Coverdale  wil I builde my cogregacion

1537 Matthew  I wil bylde my congregacion

1539  Cranmer  I wil bylde my congregacion

1541 Great  I wyll buylde my congregacyon

1549 Matthew-Tyndale  I wyl byld my congregacion

1551 Taverner  I wil build my congregacion

1552 Jugge  I wyll buylde my congregation

1552 Rheims  will I build my church  The Catholics for sure wanted the word Church. Ironic isn't it?

1557 Geneva NT I wil builde my congregation

1568 Bishops  I wyll buylde my congregation

1583  Geneva  NT  I wil build my Church

1589 Bishop's  I will builde my congregation  Fulke diglot  This diglot had wide circulation in Britain.

1611 Authorized  I will build my Church

Link to copies of the above Bibles for original research confirmation:
http://www.bibles-online.net/

James and Bancroft required ...”certain old ecclesiastical words to be kept, viz., the church not to be translated congregation, etc”.  It will be noted that the word church did not appear in an official church of England Bible until the KJV1611 was printed. The translation of congregation was used instead, started by Tyndale. Wyclif in 1380 alone used chirche over two hundred years before in an English translation made in England. The Catholic Rheims 1552 started using church and Protestant Geneva 1583 followed.

Link to Fulke diglot:
https://archive.org/details/FulkeNewTestamentConfutation1589
 
North said:
If Christians did not have the King James Bible for 1500 years AND the motives of King James creating a state Bible (KJV) based mainly on an Anglican Bible (the Bishop's Bible) were because he despised the Geneva Bible (which helped fan the flames of the Protestant revolution and questioned the authority of kings) my questions are:

1. Why is the King James Bible the Bible of choice by the IFB when the Geneva Bible or Tyndale's New Testament is available and not touched by the Crown's bias? Is it tradition? Is it ignorance of previous versions and a reaction to the "per"versions? Is there some truth I am missing?
2. What verses prove the King James Bible is God's choice over its predecessors the Tyndale New Testament or Geneva Bible, etc.? (I am not even referring to any Bible versions post King James Bible)

1. The KJV was a good translation for the time. The bias of the crown is greatly exaggerated. There was a bias against the Calvin influence in the Geneva Bible.... and rightfully so. The IFBs never really give a good reason for anything they do. They just prefer to make a arbitrary choice and defend it all cost....at the expense of common sense. Its not like IFBdum is really using a 1611. If they did.... the congregations would run them all out of town.

2. There are no verses supporting such non sense. Our Lord quoted both from the LXX and Hebrew text of the OT.... though they are vastly different in some areas. The point being..... its all about the Truth.
 
prophet said:
What did King James' bias towards anything have to do with the actual translation?
Did he sit on  one of the committees?

King James I did not have to sit on one of the committees or be an actual translator to have influence on the making of the KJV.

As King and as head of the Church of England, King James I made or approved the rules for the making of the translation, which would greatly influence its making.

In addition, King James I had Archbishop Richard Bancroft oversee and control the making of the new translation.

    In his introduction to a reprint of the Geneva Bible, Michael Brown claimed:  "James then set up rules that made it impossible for anyone involved in the project to make an honest translation" (p. vi).  S. E. Anderson contended:  "The King James translators were prejudiced, and ordered  to  be  so  by  King  James  himself"  (Scofieldism  Upgraded, p. 14).  Anderson also asserted:  "When the Authorized Version of our Bible was to be translated, King James commanded not to undermine any of the beliefs of the Church of England.  Ecclesia was not to be 'congregation' or 'assembly,' because they held to the invisible, universal theory" (Baptists Unshackled, p. 98).  Alexander Carson (1776-1846) wrote:  "There was the strongest temptation to induce them to accommodate their translation to the practice of their church" (Baptism, p. 123).  Henry Fox asserted that the KJV translators “were bound by a code of rules drawn up by their president, Archbishop Bancroft” (On the Revision, p. 7).  Tolbert Moore maintained that “the Anglican Archbishop, Richard Bancroft, was the supervisor in the translating of what we call the King James Bible” (The Eagle, Sept-Oct-Nov., 2013, p. 16).  Adam Nicolson suggested that Bancroft could see that “the church should take the initiative and mould the new Bible to its own purposes” (God’s Secretaries, p. 65).  Alfred Dewes maintained that the directions or rules given the translators “must sorely have hampered them” (Plea, p. 7).  James Woolsey wrote:  “In preparing his version, King James restricted the translators within certain bounds, which left them not at liberty to follow the plain import of certain words, nor the convictions of their own consciences; but obligated them to comply, not with a mandate proceeding from the throne of heaven, but with one coming from the throne of England” (Doctrine, p. 80).   


prophet said:
Wasn't he a Scott, Presbyterian in bias, and therefore leaning towards the Geneva, if anything?

King James I was raised as Presbyterian in Scotland, but he rejected his upbringing and embraced the Church of England when he became king over England.

King James I despised or hated the Geneva Bible, which he had read and used growing up.  One reason was the problems that the Geneva Bible caused for his divine right of kings' views or claims.

McGrath observed:  "The ultimate grounds for James's hostility toward the Geneva Bible was the challenge its marginal notes posed to his passionate belief in the doctrine of the 'divine right of kings'" (In the Beginning, p. 141).  Bernard Levinson and Joshua Berman pointed out that the marginal notes in the Geneva Bible “contained some interpretations that were sympathetic to the right of the oppressed to resist a tyrant, and that raised questions about ‘the divine right of kings’” (KJB at 400, p. 4).  In his introduction to the facsimile edition of the 1599 Geneva Bible, Michael Brown pointed out:  "King James did not encourage a translation of the Bible in order to enlighten the common people:  his sole intent was to deny them the marginal notes of the Geneva Bible" (p. i).  Gustavus Paine also noted:  "James's real reason for objecting to the Geneva Bible was rooted in his need to feel secure on his throne.  Some of the marginal notes in the Geneva version had wording which disturbed him:  they seemed to scoff at kings.  If the Bible threatened him, it must be  changed.  Away with all marginal notes!"  (Men Behind the KJV, p. 10).  Vance maintained that “it was not the text of the Geneva Bible that bothered the king--it was the notes” (King James, His Bible, p. 21).  In the introduction to a 1853 edition of the Bible by Benjamin Boothroyd, this is noted:  “What chiefly offended James and the high church party in this version [the Geneva Bible] were the notes, which indicated a strong but just sense of freedom” (p. xxi).   

    Pastor John Mincy affirmed:  "King James saw in this new translation an opportunity to get rid of the influence of the Puritan Bible, the Geneva" (Williams, From the Mind of God, p. 131).  Ward Allen maintained that King James "hoped to supplant the popularity of the Geneva Bible, the Puritan translation whose accuracy and readability made it a vast favorite with the people"  (Coming of King James Gospels, p. 3).  KJV-only advocate Robert Sargent acknowledged that King James "despised the Geneva Bible" (English Bible, p. 206).  In his Dictionary of the Bible, John Brown (1722-1787) maintained that “King James heartily hated the Geneva translation” (p. 97).  Charles Buck also asserted that “King James bore it [the Geneva] an inveterate hatred, on account of the notes” (Theological Dictionary, p. 58).  Kenneth Bradstreet confirmed that James “hated the Geneva Bible” (KJV in History, p. 87).  Stephen Miller and Robert Huber affirmed that King James “hated the Geneva Bible” (The Bible, p. 178).  KJV defender Steven Houck also observed that James "greatly disliked the marginal notes of the Geneva Bible because he thought they encouraged disobedience to kings and therefore wanted a new translation to replace it" (KJV of the Bible, p. 3).  Ronald Cammenga asserted that “the king objected to certain notes that he interpreted to deny the divine right of kings, notes that justified disobedience to the king under certain circumstances” (Protestant Reformed Theological Journal, Nov., 2011, p. 56).  The Local Preachers’ Magazine maintained that “King James disliked the notes of the Geneva Bible, because they were unfriendly to the despotic policy on which he acted after ascending the throne of England” (March, 1853, p. 112).  Alister McGrath wrote:  "The king, according to the Geneva Bible, was accountable for his actions.  It was not a view that James I cared for" (In the Beginning, p. 147).
 
    One place where the 1611 KJV indicates bias for Episcopal church government is in Acts 14:23 where either the KJV translators, Bancroft, or another prelate omitted the words "by election" found in Tyndale's New Testament, Coverdale's Bible, Matthew's Bible, Great Bible, Taverner's Bible, Jugge’s New Testament, Whittingham’s New Testament, Geneva Bible, and Bishops' Bible ("ordained them elders by election"). 

Henry Dexter noted:  “So Acts 14:23 retained in the English versions, until the hand of Episcopal authority struck it out, the recognition of the action of the membership of the churches in the choice of their elders” (Hand-Book, p. 15, footnote 1). In his 1648 sermon entitled “Truth and Love,“ Thomas Hill maintained that Acts 14:23 was one of the fourteen places altered “to make them speak the language of the Church of England” (Six Sermons, p. 24).

  In 1733, John Currie asserted:  “It was not the fault of our translators that the Version of this verse was altered, but it was done by some prelates afterward” (Full Vindication, p. 65).  James Lillie maintained that “this [Acts 14:23] is a key-text on the subject of church-government” (Bishops, p. 18).  In an article entitled “Did King James and his translators tamper with the truth of God as delivered by William Tyndale” in the Baptist Magazine for 1871 as edited by W. G. Lewis, the author asserted:  “This all-important text [Acts 14:23] was mutilated and corrupted by James’s revisers, by leaving out the two words ’by election;’ and by changing congregation into church; thus representing the act as exclusively that of Paul and Barnabas, and as Whitgift and Bancroft said they were successors of the Apostles, they turned the text into a justification of their lordship over the congregations, besides leading the people to believe that the congregations of the Apostles were the same as the churches of the bishops” (p. 582).  This article maintained “that James and his hierarchy committed a foul crime against God and man in their daring forgery on this text [Acts 14:23]” (p. 583).  This article connected the change with the Church of England’s doctrine of apostolic succession.   

    On the fourth page of the preface to his 1641 book, Edward Barber referred to “the great wrong done in putting out some Scripture, as in Acts 14:23, where election is left out, by which means people are kept from knowing” (Small Treatise, p. iv).  Concerning Acts 14:23 in his 1647 book, William Bartlett wrote:  “The original reads it otherwise than the Translation [the KJV]:  the Translation reads it ordained, but the Greek word is cheirotoneesantes, that is, they chose elders by the lifting up of the hands of the people, which is different from ordination, as coronation is from the election of a king” (Ichnographia, p. 36).  In his 1659 book, Baptist William Jeffery (1616-1693) referred to Acts 14:23 and then stated:  “where the word election is left out in the new translation, but it is in the old, and cannot be denied to be in the Greek” (Whole Faith, p. 98).  In a sermon preached in 1776, David Somerville maintained that the translation or rendering in the KJV at Acts 14:23 “is unjust” (Miller, Biographical, p. 246).  Edward Hiscox quoted Matthew Tindale as follows:

          We read only of the Apostles constituting elders by
          the suffrages of the people, Acts 14:23, which is
          the genuine signification of the Greek word,
          cheirotoneesantes, so it is accordingly interpreted
          by Erasmus, Beza, Diodoti, and those who translated
          the Swiss, French, Italian, Belgic, and even English
          Bibles, till the Episcopal correction, which leaves out,
          the words, 'by election'  (Principles and Practices for
          Baptist Churches, p. 351).

      In removing the two words “by election,” the 1582 Rheims New Testament could have been followed.  Benjamin Hanbury quoted from the preface of A True, Modest, and Just Defence of the Petition for Reformation printed in 1618 [likely in Leiden] the following:  “Acts 14:23 is thus translated, not only in the Genevan, but also in the former Church translation [Bishops’], ‘And when they had ordained them elders by election.‘  But the new translation, with the Rhemists, leave out the words ‘by election’!  Why?  It is not to be suffered that the people should have any hand in choosing their ministers; but the papal bishops must do all” (Historical Memorials, I, p. 131).  The 1582 Rheims N. T. had an annotation on this verse [numbered verse 22 in Rheims] that complained about the early English Bibles’ rendering.  The Rheims’ annotation stated:  “The heretics, to make the world believe that all Priests ought to be chosen by the voices of the people, and that they need no other Ordering or Consecration by Bishops, pressing the profane use of the Greek word more than the very natural signification requireth and Ecclesiastical use beareth, translate, Ordained by election.  Whereas in deed this word in Scripture signifeth ordering by imposition of hands, as is plain by other words equivalent (Acts 6:13, 1 Tim. 4:5, 2 Tim. 1) where the ordering of deacons, Priests, and others is called Imposition of hands:  not of the people, but of the Apostles” (p. 242).  William Fulke cited Roman Catholic Gregory Martin as writing:  “for ‘ordaining elders by election,‘ they should have said, ‘ordaining or making priests by imposition of hands’” (Defence, pp. 247-248).  Did the KJV translators or the prelate who omitted “by election” accept the Roman Catholic interpretation that this Greek word referred to “laying on of hands” for consecration to ecclesiastical offices? 

    In agreement with the Roman Catholic view, Thomas Bilson, co-editor of the KJV, asserted that the Greek word at Acts 14:23 signifieth “imposition of hands” and “not to ordain by election of the people, as some men of late had new framed the text” (Perpetual Government of Christ‘s Church, p. 13).  Bilson maintained that the Greek word “with all Greek councils, fathers, and stories, is ’to ordain by laying on of hands‘” (p. 120).  Bilson quoted from Acts 14:23: “ordained elders in every church,” omitting the words “by election“ in the pre-1611 English Bibles (p. 188).  The first-hand evidence from his own book would affirm that Bilson would have wanted the words “by election” removed, and even did remove the words once when he quoted from the verse.  Bilson claimed that Acts 14:23 “is the only place of the New Testament that can be brought to make any show for the popular elections of elders” (p. 137).  KJV translator Lancelot Andrewes contended that “the apostles ordained priests by imposition of hands in every church, Acts 14:23” (Pattern, p. 355).  Do KJV-only advocates agree with the view of Bilson and Andrewes?

    In his 1688 book, Thomas Ward, a Roman Catholic, claimed that “they thought it now convenient to pretend something more than a bare election; to wit, to receive an episcopal and priestly character, by the imposition of hands” (Errata, p. 69).  Ward suggested that perhaps one reason the words by election were removed from Acts 14:23 was “that they might more securely fix themselves in their bishoprics and benefices; thinking, perhaps that bishops consecrated, might pretend to that jure divino” (Ibid.).  Ward asserted that “they thought good to blot out the words ’by election‘” (p. 26). 

    Concerning this verse, Henry Alford, Dean of Canterburg, wrote:  “The word will not bear Jerome’s and Chrysostom’s sense of ‘laying on of hands,‘ adopted by Roman Catholic expositors.  Nor is there any reason here for departing from the usual meaning of electing by show of hands” (Greek Testament, I, p. 160-161).  Alfred noted that “’ordained’ should be ‘elected’” (How to Study, p. 348).  In Alford’s 1870 revision of the KJV, Alford translated the beginning of Acts 14:23 as follows:  “when they had elected for them elders in every church” (p. 218). In response to the note in the 1582 Rheims, Thomas Cartwright (1535-1603) wrote:  “It is absurd to imagine, that the Holy Ghost by Luke, speaking with the tongues of men, that is to say, with their understanding, should use a word in that signification, in which it was never used before his time, by any writer, holy or profane” (Confutation, p. 291).  John Owen noted that those who would have the Greek word be “an authoritative imposition of hands, wherein this ordination did consist” …“feign a disorder in them [the words] to serve their own hypothesis; for they suppose that their complete ordination was effected before there was any prayer with fasting, for by imposition of hands in their judgment ordination is completed; so Bellarmine and a Lapide on the place, with those that follow them” (Works, XVI, p. 61).  Alexander Strauch wrote:  “Ancient churchmen erroneously changed this word to mean ordination or the laying on of hands, which threw later commentators and translators off the right track.  In Luke’s day, however, the word had nothing to do with ordination or the laying on of hands.  In fact, Luke employs a distinct Greek verb (epitithemi) to designate the laying on of hands, which he doesn’t use here” (Biblical Eldership, p. 73).  Concerning this verse in his notes on Acts, Melancthon Jacobus asserted that “much less is there any ground for Jerome’s rendering, ’when they had laid hands on elders’” (p. 257).   

    William Fulke asserted:  “Our translation is true, ordained by election, and answereth the Greek word, which we translate” (Confutation, p. 158).  Fulke wrote:  “Our translation must be, as near as it can, to express the true signification of the original words; and so it is in that place of the Acts 14:23” (A Defence, p. 467).  Thomas Cartwright maintained “it must needs be, that as he wrote, so he meant the election by voices” since the word “signifieth the lifting of them [hands] up“ (Confutation, p. 291).  John Owen (1616-1683) wrote:  “Before interest had guided men in what they had to do, all the translations that were extant in English did read this text, ‘And ordained them elders by election,‘ as the word doth signify; so you will find it in your old translations.  But since, it was left out to serve a turn” (Works, Vol. IX, p. 435).  John Owen noted that Erasmus, Vatablus, Beza, and all of our old English translations indicated that the choice of elders was "by election or the suffrage of the disciples" (Church & the Bible or Works, XVI, p. 60). 

    The text of the Latin N. T. translation by Erasmus has “cum suffragns” at Acts 14:23.  In the Paraphrase on the Acts of the Apostles by Erasmus as translated by Robert Sider, Erasmus at Acts 14:23 maintained that “presbyters were chosen throughout by popular vote in each city” (p. 93).  Sider also referred to “the annotation on 14:23 where Erasmus insists that we are to understand here a choice by vote” (p. 262, note 33).  The Baptist Magazine for 1871 as edited by W. G. Lewis cited Henry Stephens, editor of a Greek-Latin Lexicon in 1572 that was consulted by the KJV translators, as giving the meaning of our text Acts 14:23 as “When they had created by suffrages” (pp. 583-584).  In his translation of his Greek text into Latin, Theodore Beza included the words per suffragia at Acts 14:23.  Theodore Beza (1519-1605) contended that "the Christians of Asia gave their votes by lifting up  their  hands  (Acts 14:23,  Cheirotoneo)"  (The  Christian Faith, p. 104).  James Harrington (1611-1677) translated Beza’s Latin as “When they had created them elders by suffrages in every congregation” (Prerogative, Book Two, p. 77).  The Baptist Magazine for 1871 translated Beza’s rendering of this verse as follows:  “When they had created for them, by suffrages, presbyters in each of the churches” (p. 583).  James Corcoran claimed that Beza translated into Latin as “Quum per suffragia creassent presbyteros, ‘having chosen presbyters by election’ (or votes)“ (American Catholic Quarterly Review, 1880, Vol. 5, p. 709).  Clearly, Greek text editors Erasmus and Beza understood the meaning “suffrage” or “election” to be in their Greek texts at Acts 14:23.

    The 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible and 1672 edition of the KJV have a marginal note at Acts 14:23 that observed that the apostles "chose and placed them [pastors] by the voice of the congregation."  The Geneva Bible and the 1672 edition of the KJV also have this note at Acts 14:23:  “The word in the original is taken from the custom of the Greeks, whose manner was to chose their officers by lifting up of the hands.”  The 1557 Whittingham’s New Testament has this note for the word “election” at Acts 14:23:  “The word signifieth to elect by putting up the hands, which declareth that ministers were not made without the consent of the people.“ 

    In his commentary on Acts, John Calvin (1509-1564) noted that this Greek word "means to determine something by raising hands, as is usually done in the assemblies of the people" (p. 19).  John Cotton also asserted that “the apostles are said to have ordained elders by lifting up of hands (to wit, of the people) as the original word implieth” (Way, p. 42).  In his 1612 Christian Dictionary, Thomas Wilson (1563-1622) has this third definition for election:  “the choosing or appointing some unto public functions, by voices, or by a common consent (Acts 14:23) ‘when they had ordained elders by election in every church‘” (p. 122).  In 1625, John Robinson referred to Acts 14:23:  “where Paul and Barnabas do ordain elders in every church by suffrages (not their own as some fancy, unto whom to lift up and to lay on hands is all one) but the people’s; or by the lifting up of hands” (Just and Necessary, p. 34).  Francis Turretin (1623-1687) wrote:  “The apostles in every city ordain presbyters by the cheirotonian of the people (14:23) or by their free suffrages (the word being derived from the Greek custom of those who voted with stretched out and extended hands; hence transferred to any elections, sacred as well as political, it signifies to appoint by vote)“ (Institutes, III, p. 229).  In 1641, John Canne referred to “officers whom the people freely chose by voices, or lifting up of hands” (Sion’s Prerogative, p. 41).  In his 1674 book, Thomas Collier cited Acts 14:23 and noted:  “When they had ordained them elders (by election, or lifting up of hands) in every church, cheirotonesai, to choose by holding up the hand” (Body of Divinity, p. 486).  John Lightfoot reported that Sidrach Simpson (c1600-1655) maintained that this Greek word “is ’to give suffrage’ in all lexicons” (Pitman, Whole Works, XIII, p. 101).  Lightfoot also quoted William Bridge (1600-1670) as saying that “the apostles appointed the people to chose; as Acts 6:3, 5, so here [Acts 14:23]“ (p. 102).  Concerning Acts 14:23, Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) translated the words in the original language as “when they had ordained them elders by the holding up of hands in every congregation” (Leviathan, p. 369). 

    In his Annotations, John Diodoti translated his own Italian Bible into English at Acts 14:23 as “when they had by common votes ordained.”  James Harrington rendered Diodati’s Bible as “When they had ordained them in every church by the common votes” (Prerogative, Two, p. 78).  James Corcoran translated Diodati’s rendering as “ordained elders for them by general suffrage” (American Catholic Quarterly Review, 1880, Vol. 5, p. 710).  Riplinger maintained that “the Italian Diodati” was a “pure” edition of the Bible (Hazardous, p. 646).  The Dutch Annotations as translated into English by Theodore Haak in 1657 presented the first part of the text of Acts 14:23 as follows:  "And when they in every church with lifting up of hands had chosen them elders."  In 1657, Harrington translated the words in the Dutch Bible appointed by the Synod of Dort as “When in each church by the holding up of hands they had elected presbyters” (Prerogative, Two, p. 78).  In an article in The Baptist Magazine for 1871, the author or editor W. G. Lewis asserted that they translated literally the 1637 Dutch Version at Acts 14:23 as follows:  “And when they had chosen elders for them in every congregation with uplifted hands” (p. 584).  Edwin Hall wrote that “the ancient French version reads, ‘And after having by common suffrages ordained elders’” (Puritans, p. 305).  Francis Turretin maintained that our French version of the Scriptures “understands cheirotonian of a creation by votes or election” (Institutes, III, p. 229).  Perhaps that French version was the revision of Robert Oliventanus’ version that was made by Theodore Beza.  Henry Baird noted that “Beza found time to give a careful and final revision to the French version of the Bible in common use among Protestants” (Theodore Beza, p. 330).  Baird wrote:  “Thus was developed the famous ’Bible of the Pastors and Professors of Geneva,’ which, from 1588 on to almost our own times, has passed through a multitude of editions and exercised a vast influence on successive generations of readers” (Ibid.).  Harrington presented the rendering of the Swiss Bible of Zurich as follows: “When they had created them elders by suffrages in every congregation” (Prerogative, Two, p. 77).  Along with the Latin New Testaments of Erasmus and Beza, the Italian, Dutch, French, and Swiss Bibles agreed with the pre-1611 English Bibles at Acts 14:23. 
 
The other versions are easier to read............our society has been dumb down to a degree that is shameful.  Most born again people no longer bring a babe in Christ up to the the standard of the Bible, instead they dumb down Christianity as a whole. 
 
Bruh said:
The other versions are easier to read............our society has been dumb down to a degree that is shameful.  Most born again people no longer bring a babe in Christ up to the the standard of the Bible, instead they dumb down Christianity as a whole.

Clearly you haven't read all the other versions...NRSV and NASB are on the same level as the KJV...you won't admit it, but the issue has nothing to do with a grade level of the reading material, but with the language that is used today, even in the intellectual community...and it is not the King's English.
 
T-Bone said:
Bruh said:
The other versions are easier to read............our society has been dumb down to a degree that is shameful.  Most born again people no longer bring a babe in Christ up to the the standard of the Bible, instead they dumb down Christianity as a whole.

Clearly you haven't read all the other versions...NRSV and NASB are on the same level as the KJV...you won't admit it, but the issue has nothing to do with a grade level of the reading material, but with the language that is used today, even in the intellectual community...and it is not the King's English.

Yes, you have underscored my point very well.  Thank you!

How about print one in the Ebonics and distribute to the R&B crowd..........yeah, that makes perfect..................whatever!! LOL
 
Bruh said:
T-Bone said:
Bruh said:
The other versions are easier to read............our society has been dumb down to a degree that is shameful.  Most born again people no longer bring a babe in Christ up to the the standard of the Bible, instead they dumb down Christianity as a whole.

Clearly you haven't read all the other versions...NRSV and NASB are on the same level as the KJV...you won't admit it, but the issue has nothing to do with a grade level of the reading material, but with the language that is used today, even in the intellectual community...and it is not the King's English.

Yes, you have underscored my point very well.  Thank you!

What a gay response!

Now the question is what "gay" means...after all, the definition has changed in just a four hundred years few decades.
 
rsc2a said:
Bruh said:
T-Bone said:
Bruh said:
The other versions are easier to read............our society has been dumb down to a degree that is shameful.  Most born again people no longer bring a babe in Christ up to the the standard of the Bible, instead they dumb down Christianity as a whole.

Clearly you haven't read all the other versions...NRSV and NASB are on the same level as the KJV...you won't admit it, but the issue has nothing to do with a grade level of the reading material, but with the language that is used today, even in the intellectual community...and it is not the King's English.

Yes, you have underscored my point very well.  Thank you!

What a gay response!

Now the question is what "gay" means...after all, the definition has changed in just a four hundred years few decades.

How about print one in the Ebonics and distribute to the R&B crowd..........yeah, that makes perfect..................whatever!! LOL
 
Bruh said:
The other versions are easier to read............our society has been dumb down to a degree that is shameful.

You must not have gotten the memo. KJV-only orthodoxy says that the KJV is easier to read, being at something like a Grade 5 level.

So who's dumbed down again?
 
Ransom said:
Bruh said:
The other versions are easier to read............our society has been dumb down to a degree that is shameful.

You must not have gotten the memo. KJV-only orthodoxy says that the KJV is easier to read, being at something like a Grade 5 level.

So who's dumbed down again?

My point exactly Ransom.  Unless I am misunderstanding some on here they are saying that the KJV needs to be in modern English. 
 
Bruh said:
rsc2a said:
Bruh said:
T-Bone said:
Bruh said:
The other versions are easier to read............our society has been dumb down to a degree that is shameful.  Most born again people no longer bring a babe in Christ up to the the standard of the Bible, instead they dumb down Christianity as a whole.

Clearly you haven't read all the other versions...NRSV and NASB are on the same level as the KJV...you won't admit it, but the issue has nothing to do with a grade level of the reading material, but with the language that is used today, even in the intellectual community...and it is not the King's English.

Yes, you have underscored my point very well.  Thank you!

What a gay response!

Now the question is what "gay" means...after all, the definition has changed in just a four hundred years few decades.

How about print one in the Ebonics and distribute to the R&B crowd..........yeah, that makes perfect..................whatever!! LOL

Interesting example you would selected there....

...and, for the record, I love the Cottonpatch Bible.
 
[quote author=Bruh]Unless I am misunderstanding some on here they are saying that the KJV needs to be in modern English.
[/quote]

No. They are saying the Bible needs to be available in modern English. I'm sure no one has issue with the KJV being in Elizabethan English.
 
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