Legalism

[Darkwing Duck]

How do you define legalism?
Dictionary.com suggests:
2. Theology.
- the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
- the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

IFB's always use the first definition and thus have no problem dismissing anyone claiming that they teach legalism. In fact, to the IFB, the only definition of legalism that exists is "the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works" so accusing an IFB of teaching legalism simply makes you look ignorant in their eyes and they are quick to dismiss anything you say.

Yet, the second definition of legalism listed here seems to be Biblical in a sense. A preacher should "judge conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws" - in other words a preacher should preach against sin (transgression of God's law) right?

Perhaps when "legalism" is used in a negative sense outside of salvation, people simple mean "determining a person's relationship with God based on their actions"? Is that the definition of the type of legalism that fundies are accused of?
How does that definition interact with John 14:15 ("If ye love me, keep my commandments.")?

 

[BALAAM]

Good subject. We have all heard sermons on 'holiness' and you kind of come to the conclusion that obeying law is what makes you holy after you are saved.

I am reading a book about Martin Luther. He had such an overwhelming sense of sinfulness and unworthiness that he would often spend 4 or 5 hours a day confessing his sins until he felt thoroughly cleansed. Then almost immediately he would wonder if perhaps he had overlooked something that he didn't think was offensive but maybe it was offensive to God. He fasted for days on end. He took to sleeping on a concrete floor without covering because he thought to deny himself in that way would bring holiness. When, as a priest, conducting mass he realized that he was supposed to be the mediator between God and man and was bringing a holy God down to man and that a priest should be holy to be able to be the mediator and he knew he wasn't holy.

Now, when I read this my immediate thought was, If all of these things could not make him holy before faith in Christ, how can the same things make you holy after faith in Christ? To me, that is legalism.

 

[FSSL]

Legalism appears in two ways:

"Do certain things and be a certain way to obtain salvation."
"Do certain things and be a certain way to obtain sanctification."

The second is the IFB definition of legalism.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I have no problem with the admonition God himself repeatedly gives us to be holy.  Sanctification is real. 

The error occurs when the ifb teaches to be holy I must x, rather than because of holiness I chose to x.  The ifb is attempting to earn God's grace to become holy while others believe because of God's grace I can live in a manner that reflects his holiness.

The other extreme which the ifb rightly preach against is to proclaim that have allows you to rightly commit any sin for we are
already holy.  This, of course, is absurd.

Because of the terminology problem you pointed to, I tend to call this problem Performance Based Christianity.

 

[subllibrm]

Legalism. Faith living by checklist.

 

[Mathew Ward]

http://reformedpub.com/legalism-a-lethal-enemy-of-gospel-freedom/

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

http://reformedpub.com/legalism-a-lethal-enemy-of-gospel-freedom/

I was a legalist but repented and asked forgiveness of that sin.
Following Christ's instruction in His model prayer. 

 

[Mathew Ward]

http://reformedpub.com/legalism-a-lethal-enemy-of-gospel-freedom/

I was a legalist but repented and asked forgiveness of that sin.
Following Christ's instruction in His model prayer. 

Good for you.

I'm sure glad you got to perform that great feat of Christianity for Christ and earned his favor.

Any other broken record topics you want to bring up?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

http://reformedpub.com/legalism-a-lethal-enemy-of-gospel-freedom/

I was a legalist but repented and asked forgiveness of that sin.
Following Christ's instruction in His model prayer. 

Good for you.

I'm sure glad you got to perform that great feat of Christianity for Christ and earned his favor.

Any other broken record topics you want to bring up?

It is the topic of the OP...you, in essence, accused me of legalism.! 
I am almost persuaded to ignore Jesus, Matthew, Luke & John and listen to Matthew Ward! 
Well, not really....

 

[Darkwing Duck]

http://reformedpub.com/legalism-a-lethal-enemy-of-gospel-freedom/

I was a legalist but repented and asked forgiveness of that sin.
Following Christ's instruction in His model prayer. 

Good for you.

I'm sure glad you got to perform that great feat of Christianity for Christ and earned his favor.

Any other broken record topics you want to bring up?

Are you suggesting that obeying Christ does NOT please him?

 

[Walt]

The error occurs when the ifb teaches to be holy I must x, rather than because of holiness I chose to x.  The ifb is attempting to earn God's grace to become holy while others believe because of God's grace I can live in a manner that reflects his holiness.

Excellent!

In most of the IFB churches, "x" is defined as (1) Coming to church, (2) tithing, and (3) going soul-winning - these were the big three, but there were other rules: (4) not speaking against the pastor, (5) men must have short hair, (6) women must wear dresses or skirts

It was pathetic that the people who did "x" lived pretty carnal lives in non-"x" areas: they fought amongst each other, committed adultery, and evil acts with children

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The error occurs when the ifb teaches to be holy I must x, rather than because of holiness I chose to x.  The ifb is attempting to earn God's grace to become holy while others believe because of God's grace I can live in a manner that reflects his holiness.

Excellent!

In most of the IFB churches, "x" is defined as (1) Coming to church, (2) tithing, and (3) going soul-winning - these were the big three, but there were other rules: (4) not speaking against the pastor, (5) men must have short hair, (6) women must wear dresses or skirts

It was pathetic that the people who did "x" lived pretty carnal lives in non-"x" areas: they fought amongst each other, committed adultery, and evil acts with children

That's a natural result of teaching people to live by rules instead of the Spirit. 

 

[Bruh]

The error occurs when the ifb teaches to be holy I must x, rather than because of holiness I chose to x.  The ifb is attempting to earn God's grace to become holy while others believe because of God's grace I can live in a manner that reflects his holiness.

Excellent!

In most of the IFB churches, "x" is defined as (1) Coming to church, (2) tithing, and (3) going soul-winning - these were the big three, but there were other rules: (4) not speaking against the pastor, (5) men must have short hair, (6) women must wear dresses or skirts

It was pathetic that the people who did "x" lived pretty carnal lives in non-"x" areas: they fought amongst each other, committed adultery, and evil acts with children

Also, they can't go to the movies.

They are willing to loose faithful members over them going to the movies.
Because the faithful member is not allowed to serve due to not signing the paper. So in order for the member to serve they go to another church that isn't IFB.

Trust me they are willing to loose faithful members over this.

I had a pastor tell me, so just because the Lord hasn't spoke to you about this you won't sign the paper? 

 

[BALAAM]

The error occurs when the ifb teaches to be holy I must x, rather than because of holiness I chose to x.  The ifb is attempting to earn God's grace to become holy while others believe because of God's grace I can live in a manner that reflects his holiness.

Excellent!

In most of the IFB churches, "x" is defined as (1) Coming to church, (2) tithing, and (3) going soul-winning - these were the big three, but there were other rules: (4) not speaking against the pastor, (5) men must have short hair, (6) women must wear dresses or skirts

It was pathetic that the people who did "x" lived pretty carnal lives in non-"x" areas: they fought amongst each other, committed adultery, and evil acts with children

Also, they can't go to the movies.

They are willing to loose faithful members over them going to the movies.
Because the faithful member is not allowed to serve due to not signing the paper. So in order for the member to serve they go to another church that isn't IFB.

Trust me they are willing to loose faithful members over this.

I had a pastor tell me, so just because the Lord hasn't spoke to you about this you won't sign the paper?

Went to college with a guy who after hearing a bunch of preaching on television decided to get rid of his. He did for a while. His daughter won some kind of contest where she could go to lunch at the Hyles house. He said she came home and told him that the Hyles had 4 televisions.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

http://reformedpub.com/legalism-a-lethal-enemy-of-gospel-freedom/

I was a legalist but repented and asked forgiveness of that sin.
Following Christ's instruction in His model prayer. 

Good for you.

I'm sure glad you got to perform that great feat of Christianity for Christ and earned his favor.

Any other broken record topics you want to bring up?

Are you suggesting that obeying Christ does NOT please him?

Matthew and I have an ongoing disagreement about a Christian and sins.
Matthew believes that if a Christian deals with sins in his life, by confessing and asking forgiveness, he is in essence practicing a form of legalism.

I believe there is a difference between the judicial forgiveness and 'parental forgiveness'.