Let's Have Some Real Fun...... Is Satan Lucifer?

[cpizzle]

Since we are having such a good time BBQ'ing the "Sacred Cow" of Tithing, let's talk about another "settled" doctrine that many people (including myself) disagree with.

Is Satan (the Devil) the Lucifer spoken about in Isaiah?

I say no.....what say you?

 

[GuyfawkesV49]

No, the passage in Isaiah 14 is referring to the king of Babylon not Satan.  The KJV translators borrowed  the name Lucifier from Jerome s translation of the bible...the Latin Vulgate.

 

[Vince Massi]

In one of his books, John Bunyan taught that Satan, Lucifer,  Apollyon, and Beelzebub were four different beings.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Since we are having such a good time BBQ'ing the "Sacred Cow" of Tithing, let's talk about another "settled" doctrine that many people (including myself) disagree with.

Is Satan (the Devil) the Lucifer spoken about in Isaiah?

I say no.....what say you?

I agree with you. The passage clearly states it was spoken to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:4).

Verse 11 clearly identifies a death of a human body, not an angelic being:

Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

In verse 20, he would be buried but not a proper burial fit for a king:

Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Verse 21 identifies his children:

Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers...

Now I see how Lucifer could be symbolic of Satan, but I don't believe Lucifer was/is Satan.

 

[bgwilkinson]

No, he is the king of Babylon, not Satan.

I subscribe to a literal, grammatical, historical hermeneutic.

"When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise." (Cooper)

"The literalist (so called) is not one who denies that figurative language, that symbols are used in prophecy, nor does he deny the great spiritual truths are set forth therein; his position is, simply, that the prophecies are to be normally interpreted (i.e., according to received laws of language) as any other utterances are interpreted-that which is manifestly figurative so regarded." (Craven)

 

[prophet]

I suppose the King of Tyre was immortal, and covered in jewels?

Haklo

 

[bgwilkinson]

You can find a list of the kings of Tyre derived from Josephus, Against Apion i. 18, 21, and his Antiquities of the Jews viii. 5.3; 13.2

There is quit a number of them listed from 1500 BC to 332 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Tyre

 

[prophet]

You can find a list of the kings of Tyre derived from Josephus, Against Apion i. 18, 21, and his Antiquities of the Jews viii. 5.3; 13.2

There is quit a number of them listed from 1500 BC to 332 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Tyre

Yet, God said of him, "thou hast been in Eden"

Many believe that the "King of Babylon", like the "King of Tyre", is an allusion to Satan.

And, yes, the Angel of the bottomless pit is definitely not Satan.
Satan will be a prisoner there, not a minister.

Haklo

 

[bgwilkinson]

You can find a list of the kings of Tyre derived from Josephus, Against Apion i. 18, 21, and his Antiquities of the Jews viii. 5.3; 13.2

There is quit a number of them listed from 1500 BC to 332 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Tyre

Yet, God said of him, "thou hast been in Eden"

Many believe that the "King of Babylon", like the "King of Tyre", is an allusion to Satan.

And, yes, the Angel of the bottomless pit is definitely not Satan.
Satan will be a prisoner there, not a minister.

Haklo

There seems to be allusions to Satan in the descriptions that are give of the King or Prince of Tyre, that is not to be denied.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

You can find a list of the kings of Tyre derived from Josephus, Against Apion i. 18, 21, and his Antiquities of the Jews viii. 5.3; 13.2

There is quit a number of them listed from 1500 BC to 332 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Tyre

Many Jewish historians believe that the passage was referring to Sennacherib.

 

[prophet]

You can find a list of the kings of Tyre derived from Josephus, Against Apion i. 18, 21, and his Antiquities of the Jews viii. 5.3; 13.2

There is quit a number of them listed from 1500 BC to 332 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Tyre

Yet, God said of him, "thou hast been in Eden"

Many believe that the "King of Babylon", like the "King of Tyre", is an allusion to Satan.

And, yes, the Angel of the bottomless pit is definitely not Satan.
Satan will be a prisoner there, not a minister.

Haklo

There seems to be allusions to Satan in the descriptions that are give of the King or Prince of Tyre, that is not to be denied.

Yes, in Ezekiel 28, I think.

Many believe, (obviously, since Lucifer seems to be generally accepted as Satan) that the "King of Babylon" is a similar allusion.

I don't think it matters, since we have plenty o names for the Devil, like that old Dragon....

Haklo

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I suppose the King of Tyre was immortal, and covered in jewels?

Haklo

Different passage of Scripture. I believe the King of Tyre refers to Satan whereas the King of Babylon was a human leader.

The word "Lucifer" was not mentioned by Ezekiel in reference to the King of Tyre.

 

[prophet]

You can find a list of the kings of Tyre derived from Josephus, Against Apion i. 18, 21, and his Antiquities of the Jews viii. 5.3; 13.2

There is quit a number of them listed from 1500 BC to 332 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Tyre

Many Jewish historians believe that the passage was referring to Sennacherib.

Sennacherib was the King of Assyria, the Hammite kingdom of Ancient Babylon.
The Capital was in Asshur, and Ninevah was a part of that kingdom.
They ruled Mesopotamia in the 15th century B.C.

Haklo

 

[prophet]

I suppose the King of Tyre was immortal, and covered in jewels?

Haklo

Different passage of Scripture. I believe the King of Tyre refers to Satan whereas the King of Babylon was a human leader.

The word "Lucifer" was not mentioned by Ezekiel in reference to the King of Tyre.

I can't think of any doctrine that gets hung up over whether Lucifer is a similar allusion. 
Certainly there was no King of Babylon named "Lucifer".

I'll survive either way.

Haklo

 

[cpizzle]

So....if "Lucifer" in Isaiah is not speaking about Satan...and the Prince of Tyre may or may not allude to Satan, then how sure are we that Satan was once a good angel who fell from Heaven  Seems to me you need both passages to come to this conclusion.  (I know that Jesus said that he saw Satan as lightning fall from Heaven, but that could mean a defeat, not a "casting out".)

The Bible says that Satan was a liar from the beginning.  Doesn't this mean that he was never good?

Could it actually be that the Bible is silent on the "origin" of Satan?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

You can find a list of the kings of Tyre derived from Josephus, Against Apion i. 18, 21, and his Antiquities of the Jews viii. 5.3; 13.2

There is quit a number of them listed from 1500 BC to 332 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Tyre

Many Jewish historians believe that the passage was referring to Sennacherib.

Sennacherib was the King of Assyria, the Hammite kingdom of Ancient Babylon.
The Capital was in Asshur, and Ninevah was a part of that kingdom.
They ruled Mesopotamia in the 15th century B.C.

Haklo

Correct. My post was placed in the wrong response. I was referring to Sennacherib possibly being "Lucifer" in Isaiah. Didn't mean for it to refer to Ezekiel's "King of Tyre".

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So....if "Lucifer" in Isaiah is not speaking about Satan...and the Prince of Tyre may or may not allude to Satan, then how sure are we that Satan was once a good angel who fell from Heaven  Seems to me you need both passages to come to this conclusion.  (I know that Jesus said that he saw Satan as lightning fall from Heaven, but that could mean a defeat, not a "casting out".)

The Bible says that Satan was a liar from the beginning.  Doesn't this mean that he was never good?

Could it actually be that the Bible is silent on the "origin" of Satan?

Ezekiel seems to portray a cherub that at one time ruled the earth. Personally, I think this would have been a pre-Adamic world which is one reason why I lean toward the Gap Theory of creation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So....if "Lucifer" in Isaiah is not speaking about Satan...and the Prince of Tyre may or may not allude to Satan, then how sure are we that Satan was once a good angel who fell from Heaven  Seems to me you need both passages to come to this conclusion.  (I know that Jesus said that he saw Satan as lightning fall from Heaven, but that could mean a defeat, not a "casting out".)

The Bible says that Satan was a liar from the beginning.  Doesn't this mean that he was never good?

Could it actually be that the Bible is silent on the "origin" of Satan?

Ezekiel seems to portray a cherub that at one time ruled the earth. Personally, I think this would have been a pre-Adamic world which is one reason why I lean toward the Gap Theory of creation.

Paul taught the "Gap theory".... You better reconsider.

Just had to say it.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So....if "Lucifer" in Isaiah is not speaking about Satan...and the Prince of Tyre may or may not allude to Satan, then how sure are we that Satan was once a good angel who fell from Heaven  Seems to me you need both passages to come to this conclusion.  (I know that Jesus said that he saw Satan as lightning fall from Heaven, but that could mean a defeat, not a "casting out".)

The Bible says that Satan was a liar from the beginning.  Doesn't this mean that he was never good?

Could it actually be that the Bible is silent on the "origin" of Satan?

Ezekiel seems to portray a cherub that at one time ruled the earth. Personally, I think this would have been a pre-Adamic world which is one reason why I lean toward the Gap Theory of creation.

Paul taught the "Gap theory".... You better reconsider.

Just had to say it.

LOL!

Paul also wrote a pretty darn good description of what love looks like! Gotta give him props for that too!

 

[prophet]

You can find a list of the kings of Tyre derived from Josephus, Against Apion i. 18, 21, and his Antiquities of the Jews viii. 5.3; 13.2

There is quit a number of them listed from 1500 BC to 332 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Tyre

Many Jewish historians believe that the passage was referring to Sennacherib.

Sennacherib was the King of Assyria, the Hammite kingdom of Ancient Babylon.
The Capital was in Asshur, and Ninevah was a part of that kingdom.
They ruled Mesopotamia in the 15th century B.C.

Haklo

Correct. My post was placed in the wrong response. I was referring to Sennacherib possibly being "Lucifer" in Isaiah. Didn't mean for it to refer to Ezekiel's "King of Tyre".

I wasn't confused.  I knew you were referring to Isaiah.
I brought up Ezekiel, because in that passage, Satan is compared to an earthly king.
And many people believe that the King of Babylon here is a reference to both an earthly king and Satan.


Haklo