Matthew 13:24....the world, or the church?

[subllibrm]

If people didn't insist on a wonky definition of  "church", the question wouldn't even make sense.

Please give us your definition of church vs a wonky definition of church.

A called out body of redeemed believers vs. a place you go on sundays for...

I don't know anyone on here that defines church as a place you go to on Sundays. Maybe you do or have someone in mind.

Come on.  Almost everyone uses the expression "go to church".  Do you go to church?  If so, then you're referring to it as a place to go on Sundays (or other days if you have services then). 

But the word translated as church really means called out.  You don't go to called out on Sundays.  The distinction is important.

And just because I use the expression "why are your panties in a wad" it does not automatically follow that you wear panties.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

If people didn't insist on a wonky definition of  "church", the question wouldn't even make sense.

Please give us your definition of church vs a wonky definition of church.

A called out body of redeemed believers vs. a place you go on sundays for...

I don't know anyone on here that defines church as a place you go to on Sundays. Maybe you do or have someone in mind.

Come on.  Almost everyone uses the expression "go to church".  Do you go to church?  If so, then you're referring to it as a place to go on Sundays (or other days if you have services then). 

But the word translated as church really means called out.  You don't go to called out on Sundays.  The distinction is important.

And just because I use the expression "why are your panties in a wad" it does not automatically follow that you wear panties.

So "go to church" is a metaphor?  People aren't actually going anywhere? 

 

[subllibrm]

If people didn't insist on a wonky definition of  "church", the question wouldn't even make sense.

Please give us your definition of church vs a wonky definition of church.

A called out body of redeemed believers vs. a place you go on sundays for...

I don't know anyone on here that defines church as a place you go to on Sundays. Maybe you do or have someone in mind.

Come on.  Almost everyone uses the expression "go to church".  Do you go to church?  If so, then you're referring to it as a place to go on Sundays (or other days if you have services then). 

But the word translated as church really means called out.  You don't go to called out on Sundays.  The distinction is important.

And just because I use the expression "why are your panties in a wad" it does not automatically follow that you wear panties.

So "go to church" is a metaphor?  People aren't actually going anywhere?

I am the church. I go places all the time.

FWIW when I refer to my church I am not thinking of the brick and mortar building on Main Street (yes, we do have a main street called Main Street) I am thinking of a local group of believers (of which I am one) who choose to work together for the purpose of the Kingdom. That is 24/7 stuff. Sometimes as individuals with prayer cover from others. Sometimes in small pairings or groups to do specific tasks for others in the body who have needs. Sometimes in fellowship or recreation to enjoy each other and the common values we share. And at least once a week plan on meeting together to worship the One to whom we owe our all. At a place. Generally referred to as the church. Which for some reason gets your panties in a wad.

You are tilting at a semantics windmill. As was stated by others, I know of no one within the ecclesia who doesn't understand that the church is the body. The body scatters throughout the week and gathers together at regular times. That gathering has become known by the "expression" go to church. What you have failed to do is provide the perfect tomato approved alternative expression.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I am the church.

Then why would you ever say you're going to church?  Seems to me you want it both ways.  You want to pretend church never means a building or a service, but you want to be able to say "go to church" and have everyone know what you're talking about. 

 

[subllibrm]

I am the church.

Then why would you ever say you're going to church?  Seems to me you want it both ways.  You want to pretend church never means a building or a service, but you want to be able to say "go to church" and have everyone know what you're talking about.

So the word can only have one tense, one connotation, one usage, one meaning? Still waiting for you to come down from the mountain with the right word we should all be using. Need any help carrying the tablet? Oh wait, what kind of tablet? Aspirin? Paper? Vitamin? Birth control? No, just the stone one that will have the official mater approved word so we will all finally be able speak in a way that leaves no one confused.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I am the church.

Then why would you ever say you're going to church?  Seems to me you want it both ways.  You want to pretend church never means a building or a service, but you want to be able to say "go to church" and have everyone know what you're talking about.

So the word can only have one tense, one connotation, one usage, one meaning? Still waiting for you to come down from the mountain with the right word we should all be using. Need any help carrying the tablet? Oh wait, what kind of tablet? Aspirin? Paper? Vitamin? Birth control? No, just the stone one that will have the official mater approved word so we will all finally be able speak in a way that leaves no one confused.

Keep waiting.  I made my point.  If you use the expression "go to church" then you are expecting people to understand you're defining "church" as a building, a meeting place, etc.  And that's not what ecclesia, translated as "church", means. 

 

[subllibrm]

I am the church.

Then why would you ever say you're going to church?  Seems to me you want it both ways.  You want to pretend church never means a building or a service, but you want to be able to say "go to church" and have everyone know what you're talking about.

So the word can only have one tense, one connotation, one usage, one meaning? Still waiting for you to come down from the mountain with the right word we should all be using. Need any help carrying the tablet? Oh wait, what kind of tablet? Aspirin? Paper? Vitamin? Birth control? No, just the stone one that will have the official mater approved word so we will all finally be able speak in a way that leaves no one confused.

Keep waiting.  I made my point.  If you use the expression "go to church" then you are expecting people to understand you're defining "church" as a building, a meeting place, etc.  And that's not what ecclesia, translated as "church", means.

Cursing the darkness while refusing to light a candle.

Truth is, you have no alternative. You just don't like the phrase as used and understood in the USA 2014.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I am the church.

Then why would you ever say you're going to church?  Seems to me you want it both ways.  You want to pretend church never means a building or a service, but you want to be able to say "go to church" and have everyone know what you're talking about.

So the word can only have one tense, one connotation, one usage, one meaning? Still waiting for you to come down from the mountain with the right word we should all be using. Need any help carrying the tablet? Oh wait, what kind of tablet? Aspirin? Paper? Vitamin? Birth control? No, just the stone one that will have the official mater approved word so we will all finally be able speak in a way that leaves no one confused.

Keep waiting.  I made my point.  If you use the expression "go to church" then you are expecting people to understand you're defining "church" as a building, a meeting place, etc.  And that's not what ecclesia, translated as "church", means.

Cursing the darkness while refusing to light a candle.

Truth is, you have no alternative. You just don't like the phrase as used and understood in the USA 2014.

Fine.  Say "Sunday service".  "I'm going to Sunday service."  That describes what you're doing without doing violence to the word "church".  Name your building right, and you can use that name to refer to the building.  "Let's meet Monday night at Our Lady of Perpetual Motion." 

 

[Mathew Ward]

They do know that I take time to deal with some slow folks on the internet, like I am doing now. 

Are you saying Jesus is slow, since you disagree with him?

When did i disagree with Jesus? Or are you just reading into my position and making up your mind what I believe on this topic? It does make for a good strawman for you to take down though.

Do you believe the field is the world, not the church?

Shouldn't you ask this question before claiming I was disagreeing with Jesus?

If you jumped to a conclusion on my position should you not at least acknowledge that faux pas on your part?

Does it normally take you this many posts and you still don't know what's going on?

I see that you are not willing to acknowledge or admit your mistake. My guess would be your pride has gotten in the way.

 

[Mathew Ward]

If people didn't insist on a wonky definition of  "church", the question wouldn't even make sense.

Please give us your definition of church vs a wonky definition of church.

A called out body of redeemed believers vs. a place you go on sundays for...

I don't know anyone on here that defines church as a place you go to on Sundays. Maybe you do or have someone in mind.

Come on.  Almost everyone uses the expression "go to church".  Do you go to church?  If so, then you're referring to it as a place to go on Sundays (or other days if you have services then). 

But the word translated as church really means called out.  You don't go to called out on Sundays.  The distinction is important.

And just because I use the expression "why are your panties in a wad" it does not automatically follow that you wear panties.

I think he fails to understand that people are going to a church building when they use the phrase go to church. They are not saying the building is the church, but it is an easier strawman  for him to burn so that is how he applies it.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

They do know that I take time to deal with some slow folks on the internet, like I am doing now. 

Are you saying Jesus is slow, since you disagree with him?

When did i disagree with Jesus? Or are you just reading into my position and making up your mind what I believe on this topic? It does make for a good strawman for you to take down though.

Do you believe the field is the world, not the church?

Shouldn't you ask this question before claiming I was disagreeing with Jesus?

If you jumped to a conclusion on my position should you not at least acknowledge that faux pas on your part?

Does it normally take you this many posts and you still don't know what's going on?

I see that you are not willing to acknowledge or admit your mistake. My guess would be your pride has gotten in the way.

When did I make a mistake? 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Mathew Ward]I think he fails to understand that people are going to a church building when they use the phrase go to church. They are not saying the building is the church, but it is an easier strawman  for him to burn so that is how he applies it.
[/quote]

Actually,  the idea that church is something other than a redeemed people is inherent in the original question.

 

[Bob H]

[quote author=Mathew Ward]I think he fails to understand that people are going to a church building when they use the phrase go to church. They are not saying the building is the church, but it is an easier strawman  for him to burn so that is how he applies it.

Actually,  the idea that church is something other than a redeemed people is inherent in the original question.
[/quote]

True, but Mr Ward wasn't the one who hi-jacked the thread

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=Mathew Ward]I think he fails to understand that people are going to a church building when they use the phrase go to church. They are not saying the building is the church, but it is an easier strawman  for him to burn so that is how he applies it.

Actually,  the idea that church is something other than a redeemed people is inherent in the original question.

True, but Mr Ward wasn't the one who hi-jacked the thread
[/quote]

But (other than the fact that Jesus said what Jesus said, which should settle the matter entirely) it's what makes alternative interpretations so ridiculous.  To say that the field in the parable is the church is to say that the called out includes the not-called-out.

 

[Mathew Ward]

[quote author=Mathew Ward]I think he fails to understand that people are going to a church building when they use the phrase go to church. They are not saying the building is the church, but it is an easier strawman  for him to burn so that is how he applies it.

Actually,  the idea that church is something other than a redeemed people is inherent in the original question.

True, but Mr Ward wasn't the one who hi-jacked the thread

But (other than the fact that Jesus said what Jesus said, which should settle the matter entirely) it's what makes alternative interpretations so ridiculous.  To say that the field in the parable is the church is to say that the called out includes the not-called-out.
[/quote]


In the population of people (the world) there are wheat and tares.

In the local assembly, in a big building or in a home, there are wheat and tares that gather.

Not a far fetched application of the parable.

But then again there are ministers of darkness who are transformed as ministers of righteousness and head up these local assemblies in big buildings and in homes.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=Mathew Ward]I think he fails to understand that people are going to a church building when they use the phrase go to church. They are not saying the building is the church, but it is an easier strawman  for him to burn so that is how he applies it.

Actually,  the idea that church is something other than a redeemed people is inherent in the original question.

True, but Mr Ward wasn't the one who hi-jacked the thread

But (other than the fact that Jesus said what Jesus said, which should settle the matter entirely) it's what makes alternative interpretations so ridiculous.  To say that the field in the parable is the church is to say that the called out includes the not-called-out.

In the population of people (the world) there are wheat and tares.

In the local assembly, in a big building or in a home, there are wheat and tares that gather.

Not a far fetched application of the parable.

But then again there are ministers of darkness who are transformed as ministers of righteousness and head up these local assemblies in big buildings and in homes.
[/quote]

Do you think Jesus was talking about the local assembly?  What did Jesus say he was talking about? 

 

[Ransom]

Not a far fetched application of the parable.

It's farfetched because it is explicitly contradicited by the parable's teller's own explanation.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Simple hermeneutics people.

Interpretation is one application is many.

I didn't say the interpretation was the church I said it was a plausible application of the truth. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Simple hermeneutics people.

Interpretation is one application is many.

I didn't say the interpretation was the church I said it was a plausible application of the truth.

Did Jesus say the field is the world, or that one of many possible applications of the truth in this parable is that the field is the world? 

Since "church" means "called out", does "called out" really mean "a blend of called out and not called out"?  Isn't that what it must mean in order to apply this parable to the church? 

When did the meaning of "church" change from "called out [ones]" to "An assortment of peeps who attend services?" 

 

[Mathew Ward]

Simple hermeneutics people.

Interpretation is one application is many.

I didn't say the interpretation was the church I said it was a plausible application of the truth.

Did Jesus say the field is the world, or that one of many possible applications of the truth in this parable is that the field is the world? 

Since "church" means "called out", does "called out" really mean "a blend of called out and not called out"?  Isn't that what it must mean in order to apply this parable to the church? 

When did the meaning of "church" change from "called out [ones]" to "An assortment of peeps who attend services?"

Does the local church that you attend have any that are not called out?

Does it have wheat and tares?

When will these wheat and tares be revealed?

Not really that difficult to make an application of the truth that Jesus taught in the parable.