Mental Illness and medical diagnosis

[ItinerantPreacher]

I think the other thread got hi-jacked, so as I stated in a post in that thread, I started one here to deal with a related but different issue than "death with Dignity" (or, the lack of dignity thereof)

Most of the feedback was similar, seeming to draw the conclusion that I had no place for medicine. Far from the truth.

The topic of health in general is charged with emotion, especially to those who have either had significant health issues themselves, or to those who have been in the place of some sort of primary decision maker for someone else. Any form of human suffering is very, very hard for anyone to deal with or process. I can speak to this personally, while my health in general has been pretty good, I lost my mother to cancer and my father to Alzheimers while both lived in my home. My mother was sound of mind and weak of body, my father was sound of body, but weak of mind. My mother passed first which meant I made decisions for my father for the last 3 years of his life. Both were emotional, both were different, but much of it was simultaneous, adding to the burden. (The time frame was about 5 1/2 years) During that period, I thought a lot about how to deal with situations like these. While I could not then, I can thank God now for allowing me to go through that so that I would have a clearer frame of reference to help others with issues similar.

I am not sure how to approach this systematically, there is a lot from the other thread. I will make an attempt to answer the question asked, or rebuttals posed while expressing my views on the topic.



So, to Smellin.

So a person cannot accept a medical diagnosis without Scriptures being taken into account?

No, they shouldn't. There are both physical and spiritual causes of all kinds of illnesses. You example however

I have a relative who many years ago was suffering from fatigue. He went to the pastor who anointed him with oil, prayed for him and told him to get MORE involved in the church.

He had severe heart issues a little later and was eventually diagnosed with a form of muscular dystrophy which was causing his fatigue. He could have had a heart attack if he had continued following his pastor's advice.

Is one of a very foolish pastor. I do not advocate ever just going to any pastor. Sounds to me like your friend went to a pastor he should not have. Do I advocate anointing with oil? Yes. My wife and I were anointed with oil in regards to a particular situation in our life. We were unable to carry to term after conception. Doctors, obgyn, specialists, diagnosed with a syndrome that there was no health risk from, but no cure for. (Technically she had/has the syndrome) That in spite of having a healthy child together already. So, we were anointed with oil, and she gave birth to a healthy baby boy several months ago in spite of the doctors saying we couldn't. A much more appropriate application of medicine and faith. We were never counselled to "just get busy".

In another situation in my life, I went to a Christian doctor, and I was complaining of fatigue, perhaps not unlike your example Smellin. I mentioned it to my pastor in casual conversation, (I wasn't asking him to fix it, we were just chatting) and his response was "might be nothing, but you should probably check it out".  (He knew my schedule and my spiritual life) So, I went to the doctor. To my pleasant surprise, as we talked, one of the first questions my doctor asked was "are you still in church and maintaining a devotional life?". I said yes, to which he responded "it is probably not a spiritual issue then". So, he ordered some tests. Turns out there was nothing wrong, I was simply overworking myself, and needed more rest. Seemed like a reasonable balance to me of medicine and faith.

Ransom, you alluded similarly in your post. Hopefully this clarified more of what I meant.

Smellin, you switched in your post from a physical illness (muscular dystrophy) to saying that mental illness is a physical illness. Now, I can read, you didn't type those words, what you typed was

Mental illness is what it says: an illness that stems from the brain (the organ).

Here is where I disagree. Muscualry dystrophy is a disease of the body. It is clinically diagnosable based upon empirical evidence. So is cancer, and MS and ........ But schizophrenia is not. ADHD is not. You can diagnose a tumour, a glandular deficiency, a clot and many other things, but you cannot diagnose "mental illness".  Mental illnesses are not measured, they are not quantified, they are not tested. They are diagnosed by symptoms without further testing. If come into your doctors complaining of chest pains, he may suspect you had or are having a heart attack, he will then test that assumption. With mental illness you receive a diagnosis from the symptoms without a test.

Have you ever looked at either the DSM IV or the DSM V? These are the benchmarks of differential diagnoses in cases of mental illness. The original DSM was published in  1952 and was 132 pages long. The 4 is 924 pages long describing differing mental illnesses and struggles. Here is a quote from a Christian physician in regards to the DSM 4 (The 5 is now out BTW, but many people are still using the 4 because a 924 page book was revised.)

DSM-IV is the "Bible" of the whole area of modern mental illness. The production of DSM-IV included a liaison with "more than 60 organizations and associations," including the American Psychological Association, American Psychoanalytic Association, American Psychological Society, Coalition for the Family, National Association of Social Workers, World Health Organization, etc. It stands alone as the source book for mental disorders around the world.

As such, DSM-IV stands against the Bible of Christianity. It does so, not so much because some classification of mental disorders is not needed, but because its developers have ignored and often purposely spurned the Bible as a source book of understanding both mental health and mental disorders

From my research, most Christian psychologists use the DSM to diagnose with. They build their foundation of "medical" diagnoses from a Bible denying book.

The fields of psychology and psychiatry are hardly settled, there is no consensus in diagnoses, there is no consensus in treatment.

Now, not every mental issue is a spiritual issue. Autism, FASD, issues of developmental delay, Downs, clearly not spiritual. Also not treatable, and by this I do not mean that these conditions do not need specialized care, I mean you can't cure them.

There needs to be a balance between medical and spiritual diagnoses. Christians who do not seek any medical help are fools. Counsel for the troubles of life that is not founded upon the scriptures (founded, not mentioning in passing) is just as foolish.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

aleshanee, no, I don't have empirical evidence, but if you read my posts, that is a requirement that needs to be put upon the medical profession who claim that problems are medical as opposed to spiritual.

I cannot diagnose you, nor would I try over a few posts on the internet. You seem to indicate empirical evidence, which is important.

Could the problem be physical? Yes. I deal with a man off and on who was born with his umbilical cord wrapped around his neck, and suffered damage from lack of oxygen which was evident as he developed, but unclear as to how it would manifest itself. As a young man, he got involved with witches and seances and a whole host of drugs. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia. He began to get angry, heard voices, stripped his clothes off and ran naked in the winter among other things. Was his problem spiritual, or physical, or both?

I did all I could to minister to his soul and spirit, while encouraging him to continue seeking medical help for his issues. Result? He got saved, took about 7 years of witnessing and explaining. He began to maintain a a devotional life with the Lord. As time went on, his doctor began to reduce his medication for schizophrenia, until he was almost completely off of it. No voices, no anger. Difficulties? Damage from oxygen deprivation does not go away. Spiritual issues can be solved spiritually.

You seem like can intelligent person, and you have alluded to the level of trauma that you were exposed to. All of that trauma is very possibly accompanied by spiritual issues. The only thing I can say to you is, do not rule out the fact that what you are going through is exacerbated by spiritual things. To clarify, one does not have to be "possessed" to be plagued or troubled by demonic activity.

I want to repeat, I am not diagnosing anything, I cannot do that from here, and we both know it. I am simply saying if you are not already aware, do not rule out the possibility of spiritual activity.

You posed a comment at the end, I do not believe that all mental issues are demons. I do however believe there is a serious problem in general of diagnosing spiritual problems as mental issues.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

IP, nowhere have I said there cannot be a spiritual element in the cases of some mental illness.

My most recent bout of clinical depression was a result of hormonal change after being treated for prostate cancer. I DID go to a counselor (Methodist pastor) who was actually a state-licensed, practicing psychologist. In our months of weekly counseling, he was also monitoring how the meds were working as my physician called him before I started them and they agreed to work together for my benefit.

One of the things that eventually came out through counseling was some of the abuse that I had experienced as a child that I buried. Because some of the abusers in my life are still alive, he counseled me NOT to confront them, but rather I wrote out my feelings toward them and read them toward him as if he were the face of the abusers. After a couple of times of breaking down, he worked with me on how to forgive without confrontation. And that was something I was eventually able to do.

In our last session, I asked him how the entire thing worked together. He said that the Welbutrin helped regulate my brain function which freed me to be able to come to logical and eventually corrective thinking.  Yes, it did have a spiritual component to it (forgiving my abusers) but without the meds, I probably wouldn't have been able to get to the point of "letting go and letting God" (to quote a clerical cliche). The physical healing had to better take care of my literal brain before I was even able to address my unforgiving spirit.

FYI, the "anointing of oil" is a term used for medicinal purposes (see the parable of the Good Samaritan). James' admonition of anointing with oil in prayer is referring to getting proper medical attention in combination with prayer. It isn't simply going to the pastor to dip his finger in olive oil and press it against one's forehead while praying.

 

[rsc2a]

IP, your entire post is pretty ignorant.

Here is where I disagree. Muscualry dystrophy is a disease of the body. It is clinically diagnosable based upon empirical evidence. So is cancer, and MS and ........ But schizophrenia is not. ADHD is not. You can diagnose a tumour, a glandular deficiency, a clot and many other things, but you cannot diagnose "mental illness".  Mental illnesses are not measured, they are not quantified, they are not tested. They are diagnosed by symptoms without further testing.

A hundred years ago, a vast array of illnesses were diagnoses simply by the symptoms.1 A thousand years ago, the causes were thought to be bad humors in the blood. The medical community did not have nearly enough knowledge to understand what was causing various illnesses. And the human brain is the most complicated organ of all. They think they have an idea about what might cause Alzheimer's (two types of mutated protein IRC) but they still cannot say how those proteins cause the disease. To think that a disease doesn't have physical causes simply because we haven't found them yet is to be oblivious to the entire history of the field of medicine.

1In fact, all that empirical evidence and tests that are being brought up. What they are often look for are symptoms of the illness, not the illness itself.

From my research, most Christian psychologists use the DSM to diagnose with. They build their foundation of "medical" diagnoses from a Bible denying book.

Yes, most Christian psychologists use the DSM. Oncologists also use writings that help them identify cancers, pediatricians use texts specifically related to children, and gerontologists use papers that are focused on old people. And...

....every one of them use biology and medical textbooks that describe the process of evolution, that use the modern understanding of evolution to help formulate their theories, and that treat evolution as a very established fact. For a majority of the people on this thread, that would be a Bible-denying position, but I don't see you avoiding the oncologist or cardiologist because of it.

My position: there are physical and spiritual aspects to everything including illness. Disease doesn't have a single cause but is multi-faceted which is why it is vital for good health that people are treated holistically instead of focusing on one to the exclusion of the other. For some cases, it makes more sense to use one primary treatment or the other, but neither should be  outright rejected.

There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight. - C.S. Lewis