Money? - Is our Focus All Wrong

[praise_yeshua]

Church members can do most of what multiple assistant pastors do.  They can lead the youth, visit the sick, run bus routes, lead singing, direct choirs, develop web pages ect....

When the "paid" staff is responsible for running the church, the people are left with fewer opportunities for service.

Of course, the Pastor can't "boss around" volunteers....they can only give orders to paid staff

Member already do it and don't get paid for it.

I've long recommended that the average church remove their pastor appreciate day and replace it with a member appreciation day......

Then again, the MOG can't serve without being appreciated for it....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

  What should we do to funnel more money to missions and evangelism and away from wasteful expenditures. 

Examples -
Smaller churches uniting to decrease the cost of multiple buildings and pastors.
Worship at different times so that a single building can be used more than just 4 - 5 hours per week.

I of course am not speaking about larger churches that are being used practically all the time or pastors that are leading hundreds of members.  I am speaking about 1000's of smaller churches that are using 90% of their offerings to maintain their own existence.

That's a very good ? and one for which I do not have a very good answer. The lack of an answer lies at least somewhat in the fragmentation inherent in the IFB approach to ecclesiology. But I think your suggestion of spreading resources more widely is a good one. It is hard to do that with buildings b/c people have a traveling radius with which they are comfortable which is almost impossible to change. I think we could do a lot better of job of 1/2 and 1/4 time pastors along the model of the old circuit riders. I pastor an average sized church (granted, it is low maintenance) and if I chopped out one service and  writing I could pastor a similar church within driving distance w/o too much extra effort. So much of my work is sermon prep and that could then be used twice instead of once, for instance.

It's a thought provoking question.

Good thoughts and a good thread.
Many of the younger church planters do not put owning or building a church building as a high priority, because of what has been mentioned here.

We, like many other congregations, use our auditorium 3 times each Sunday morning so we wouldn't have to build a larger building. We also allow our buildings to be used weekly/regularly by our community. Yesterday, we hosted a luncheon for volunteers at our local hospital and Tuesday we hosted a community blood drive.

I think more and more churches are seeing the waste in having a huge building complex that are only used Sunday and Wednesday.

 

[Walt]

Does anyone think we spend way too much money on things that don't truly have eternal merit.

Like the latest PS4 and 60-inch televisions?  Absolutely!
(Oh, I see you mean something else)

The recent thread on Church Planting had me thinking....

How much money is spent:
Raising support for so the pastor doesn't have to work
Building costs
Pastor's Full Time Salary
Promotions
Ect....

What is the end result.....another church that is "slightly" different from the 40 other churches within a 5 mile radius.

Our church recently started a new work in an area that had two churches; a Catholic church and a Southern Baptist church that has since closed.

I rejoice in all souls saved and lives changed, but you don't need a separate church to do that.  Sure, if there is "no" Bible Believing churches anywhere around, then a Church MUST be started!  However, many times we just feel the need to start a church that caters to the Pastor's individual tastes.

I don't have sufficient experience to comment.

We spend "way" too much money (my church and salary included) on corporate worship, leaving just crumbs for the poor and needy.  Everything is spent on making sure the "saints" have a comfortable and enjoyable Sunday Morning experience (specifically focused to each and everyone of their beliefs), which is not where our focus should lie.  The giving commanded in the NT is intended to be spent on the needs of our fellowman, not primarily in the upkeep of buildings, preacher pay, and/or advertising.

Certainly there is some merit in what you say; I don't mind meeting in a church building, and I am very glad that it is heated and air-conditioned.  However, I don't think the church should be spending mega-bucks on fancy/expensive chandeliers or custom-made quarter million dollar pianos.

We have 1000's of paid for church buildings that sit 1/4 filled and we are still spending millions on new ones.  God called and Holy Spirit filled preachers spend their lives ministering to a small group of people, but we keep paying more and more folks to come up with competing messages.  Why can't we find a better way to maximize what God has already provided and spend the offerings of God's people on a homeless shelter and food pantries?

I believe that the Scripture teaches that the pastor should be paid; he should (in my opinion) earn a living that is roughly equivalent to the average family.  Some so-called "men of God" have luxurious custom homes, for beyond what the richest men in their church have.  Others go on annual $50,000-$100,000 personal vacations.  Something is wrong when the pastor is earning that much.  At the other end, there is a pastor I know across town who has gone without heat in his home because they couldn't afford to fill up the propane tank.  In my opinion, that man is underpaid -- I don't think that members of his church are going without heat.

Big or small, the command to the pastor is to "Feed the flock" that God has given him.

In my opinion, the order should be
1) Make sure that the pastor is appropriately compensated
2) Take care of needs among the church members
3) Then look into providing services for the homeless and needy of the area

Note that is some areas, the city/county oppose churches doing things for the needy via burdensome restrictions, etc.

 

[sword]

Does anyone think we spend way too much money on things that don't truly have eternal merit.

Like the latest PS4 and 60-inch televisions?  Absolutely!
(Oh, I see you mean something else)

The recent thread on Church Planting had me thinking....

How much money is spent:
Raising support for so the pastor doesn't have to work
Building costs
Pastor's Full Time Salary
Promotions
Ect....

What is the end result.....another church that is "slightly" different from the 40 other churches within a 5 mile radius.

Our church recently started a new work in an area that had two churches; a Catholic church and a Southern Baptist church that has since closed.

I rejoice in all souls saved and lives changed, but you don't need a separate church to do that.  Sure, if there is "no" Bible Believing churches anywhere around, then a Church MUST be started!  However, many times we just feel the need to start a church that caters to the Pastor's individual tastes.

I don't have sufficient experience to comment.

We spend "way" too much money (my church and salary included) on corporate worship, leaving just crumbs for the poor and needy.  Everything is spent on making sure the "saints" have a comfortable and enjoyable Sunday Morning experience (specifically focused to each and everyone of their beliefs), which is not where our focus should lie.  The giving commanded in the NT is intended to be spent on the needs of our fellowman, not primarily in the upkeep of buildings, preacher pay, and/or advertising.

Certainly there is some merit in what you say; I don't mind meeting in a church building, and I am very glad that it is heated and air-conditioned.  However, I don't think the church should be spending mega-bucks on fancy/expensive chandeliers or custom-made quarter million dollar pianos.

We have 1000's of paid for church buildings that sit 1/4 filled and we are still spending millions on new ones.  God called and Holy Spirit filled preachers spend their lives ministering to a small group of people, but we keep paying more and more folks to come up with competing messages.  Why can't we find a better way to maximize what God has already provided and spend the offerings of God's people on a homeless shelter and food pantries?

I believe that the Scripture teaches that the pastor should be paid; he should (in my opinion) earn a living that is roughly equivalent to the average family.  Some so-called "men of God" have luxurious custom homes, for beyond what the richest men in their church have.  Others go on annual $50,000-$100,000 personal vacations.  Something is wrong when the pastor is earning that much. At the other end, there is a pastor I know across town who has gone without heat in his home because they couldn't afford to fill up the propane tank.  In my opinion, that man is underpaid -- I don't think that members of his church are going without heat.

Big or small, the command to the pastor is to "Feed the flock" that God has given him.

In my opinion, the order should be
1) Make sure that the pastor is appropriately compensated
2) Take care of needs among the church members
3) Then look into providing services for the homeless and needy of the area

Note that is some areas, the city/county oppose churches doing things for the needy via burdensome restrictions, etc.

I am all for caring for the pastor and I think the general rule of thumb should be provide for him a lifestyle similar or slightly above the level the average church member lives.

That being said if the pastor does not make enough to keep his house heated and his family fed why is he not working a part time job. Most people struggle to live a middle class lifestyle on 40 hrs. Many churches do not have 40 hrs worth of responsibilities for a pastor.

Is it beneath a pastor or assistant pastor of a small church to work a second job to supplement his income. If a man does not work enough hrs to feed and care for his family I question his character. I use the term small because a medium or large size church should manage its money well enough to properly care for their staff.

 

[Walt]

Church members can do most of what multiple assistant pastors do.  They can lead the youth, visit the sick, run bus routes, lead singing, direct choirs, develop web pages ect....

When the "paid" staff is responsible for running the church, the people are left with fewer opportunities for service.

Of course, the Pastor can't "boss around" volunteers....they can only give orders to paid staff

You also get into the situation where someone in the church believes he is competent to do "X" (like web site design or be a treasurer) and he is not able to do that job.  In a previous church, a good-hearted man volunteered to keep the books, but he wasn't prepared for all that it involved.

 

[Walt]

Why not follow the New Testament model of the early Church? Paul, worked full time and did not need a church paying his salary. And the churches meeting in homes took up gifts and offering for other churches/christians, maybe they need food or medical care, etc, etc.

Just a thought.

But Paul made it clear that he did that for the sake of the early church, and it was right and proper that they support a pastor.

 

[Walt]

Love the idea of a "member appreciation day" - there were many times when (as a member) I thought I went above and beyond and never had any "thank you" or recognition.

Of course, the Holy Spirit then rebuked me, and asked me if I was doing it to serve God or for men's praise.

So my flesh was unhappy, but I just learned to live with it.

 

[Fresh Air]

Love the idea of a "member appreciation day" - there were many times when (as a member) I thought I went above and beyond and never had any "thank you" or recognition.

Of course, the Holy Spirit then rebuked me, and asked me if I was doing it to serve God or for men's praise.

So my flesh was unhappy, but I just learned to live with it.

We're doing something next week we are calling LOVE WORKS/Servants. We are asking every person at church that day to choose somebody who serves in some capacity, write them a personal thank you note, and purchase or make them a thoughtful gift. Never done it before. We'll see how it goes over. I want to both encourage those who serve, and encourage the thought of service.

 

[sword]

Love the idea of a "member appreciation day" - there were many times when (as a member) I thought I went above and beyond and never had any "thank you" or recognition.
Of course, the Holy Spirit then rebuked me, and asked me if I was doing it to serve God or for men's praise.
So my flesh was unhappy, but I just learned to live with it.

Well said.

 

[Walt]

Love the idea of a "member appreciation day" - there were many times when (as a member) I thought I went above and beyond and never had any "thank you" or recognition.

Of course, the Holy Spirit then rebuked me, and asked me if I was doing it to serve God or for men's praise.

So my flesh was unhappy, but I just learned to live with it.

We're doing something next week we are calling LOVE WORKS/Servants. We are asking every person at church that day to choose somebody who serves in some capacity, write them a personal thank you note, and purchase or make them a thoughtful gift. Never done it before. We'll see how it goes over. I want to both encourage those who serve, and encourage the thought of service.

Wonder if someone will be left out... I find that there are jobs (places to serve) that are frequently overlooked:

- Treasurer and / or bookkeeper
- People who mow or do grounds work
- People who clean the church
- Sound system people
- People who create CDs or tapes or whatever
- People who maintain the churches web page

The recognition often  goes to those whom we can "see" -- the pianist, organist, SS teachers, deacons, people who sing specials, choir leader, those who work in various children's ministries... but the "behind the scenes" people are frequently overlooked, in my experience.

Anyway, best wishes for your day.  Hope it is a real encouragement.

 

[Bruh]

Love the idea of a "member appreciation day" - there were many times when (as a member) I thought I went above and beyond and never had any "thank you" or recognition.

Of course, the Holy Spirit then rebuked me, and asked me if I was doing it to serve God or for men's praise.

So my flesh was unhappy, but I just learned to live with it.

We're doing something next week we are calling LOVE WORKS/Servants. We are asking every person at church that day to choose somebody who serves in some capacity, write them a personal thank you note, and purchase or make them a thoughtful gift. Never done it before. We'll see how it goes over. I want to both encourage those who serve, and encourage the thought of service.

This is an awesome idea!

The SBC church we now are members of.....I've become good friends with the pastor and I've taken a little responsibility on Sunday mornings.  When there was a need that came up a few weeks ago and I volunteered, he tells me, that's fine brother but I just don't want you to take too much on and get wore out.  I started laughing, he says, whats so funny? I said, brother it's ok I'll be fine, but thanks I appreciate your concern, if I told you what we use to do on Sundays (as a married couple) you'd probably think I was exaggerating.   

 

[Walt]

Love the idea of a "member appreciation day" - there were many times when (as a member) I thought I went above and beyond and never had any "thank you" or recognition.

Of course, the Holy Spirit then rebuked me, and asked me if I was doing it to serve God or for men's praise.

So my flesh was unhappy, but I just learned to live with it.

We're doing something next week we are calling LOVE WORKS/Servants. We are asking every person at church that day to choose somebody who serves in some capacity, write them a personal thank you note, and purchase or make them a thoughtful gift. Never done it before. We'll see how it goes over. I want to both encourage those who serve, and encourage the thought of service.

This is an awesome idea!

The SBC church we now are members of.....I've become good friends with the pastor and I've taken a little responsibility on Sunday mornings.  When there was a need that came up a few weeks ago and I volunteered, he tells me, that's fine brother but I just don't want you to take too much on and get wore out.  I started laughing, he says, whats so funny? I said, brother it's ok I'll be fine, but thanks I appreciate your concern, if I told you what we use to do on Sundays (as a married couple) you'd probably think I was exaggerating. 

Indeed!  When one gets out of the IFBx world of "lack of sleep/activity" = "spiritual", it can be a surprise (pleasant ones at times)