Music - moral, immoral, or amoral?

[ItinerantPreacher]

I am posing a topic that involves the question of whether music in general is moral, immoral or amoral.

Not long ago there was a lot of posting going on in opposing threads entitled and located here:

Against CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone
http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/against-ccm-please-convince-us-from-scripture-alone/

and here:
For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone
http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/for-ccm-please-convince-us-from-scripture-alone/

I browsed the topics and saw a lot of rhetoric thrown out by both sides, so I thought I might approach the topic from a different perspective.

First of all, I want to insert a definition. When I refer to CCM, I define it as a "genre" of music, not simply anything that is contemporary. Contemporary simply means occuring in the present, when we apply that to music, it generally means anything written or performed recently. By that definition "Patch the Pirate" is contemporary. And it is, but it is not part of the larger genre of "CCM", or Contemporary Christian Music.

Second of all, I want to state that music is an important topic in the scriptures. Occasions of the use of music are scattered throughout scripture, an entire songbook consisting of 150 songs, including one that is 22 verses long is located somewhere in the middle of a standard whole Bible. In context, Ephesians 5:15-21 require us to understand God's will concerning music.

So, if God said so much about music, it must not then be amoral. There must be moral and immoral music.

When I look at "music" I see three simple elements at play. First the lyrics. Second the notes and their arrangement. Thirdly the performer. We could add the composer, but for simplicities sake, I will leave the composer out.

So, lets look briefly at each one.

First off the lyrics. Here is where there is some measure of general agreement. To be acceptable in the sight of God, generally, the lyrics must glorify God, or at least glorify Godly principles and certainly must not denigrate or mock God or Godly principles.

Secondly the notes and their arrangement. This is usually where the controversy begins. Do the notes matter? I assert that they do. It is simply juvenile to conclude that Satan with all his influence has not influenced this area of man's domain. Part of our struggle to understand this is that we who speak English do not "sing" the psalms, especially in Hebrew to Jewish music. I have included a couple of examples of the psalms sung in Hebrew to provide as an example.
Psalm 23 sung in Hebrew with text Lost Melodies - Hebrew Chanting - Psalm 95
It is hard to listen to something like this and see CCM music. It is hard to see how for the most part the Contemporary Christian Music phenomena could have been influenced by music that sounds anything at all like this.

Add to this that there is no direct Scripture that states "this is how thou shalt arrange the notes" and we are left to Bible principles and discernment. Much of the Christian life is a matter of discernment. I believe one of the most significant questions to ask is "what emotion or sensation do the notes produce?" Consider the music in any movie. It is there to set emotional context to the scene. Whether upbeat, dark, joyous, moody, suspenseful, angry or whatever mood or emotion you wish to portray, this is achieved through the notes and their arrangement. To suggest the music plays no part in the movies dramatization is to ignore the obvious.
So, what emotion is Jars of Clay trying to produce in "The Flood"? How does this honour the Lord?  Or what emotion is Steven Curtis Chapman trying to produce in "Lord of the Dance"? Or what emotion is Mercy Me trying to produce in "Shake"? (As a side note, this song never identifies who God is, except as "God Almighty", a term any AA, NA, LDS or JW would be fine with) Or, are these simply catering  to the music of our generation in an attempt to sell records with no attempt to glorify God at all? The list of examples is endless. And in truth, there is a lot of grey as opposed to B&W in the area of musical arrangement, which is why discernment must be used.

Thirdly the performer. Does this matter? If it doesn't then Iron Maiden or Pantera or Judas Priest or Justin Bieber or MC Hammer makes no difference. Doesn't wash with me. Ok, then what about Matt Maher and his Mariolatry, or Chris Tomlin and his ties to Rome, or homosexual artists Marsha Stevens, Ray Boltz, Doug Pinnock or Amy Ray? Do these things matter? I contend that they do. Music is meant to glorify God and edify the hearer. Being in a deliberate sinful state does not glorify God. Apply the same principles to for instance unbiblical denominations. I read about Mormons, I don't listen to them. I don't let unbelievers or grossly sinful people minister to me, at least not knowingly.

If the scandalous behaviour of CCM artists is so well known, then let me add an illustration. Here on the FFF, there is a lot of IFBx talk. The where there's smoke there's fire type of approach is often used. We often see posts about things like "when are you going to see that IFB has a bad rep and you should leave it". So, I pose the question, where are the CCMx'ers?

I know, I didn't use any verses. Ok, let me add a few.
1 Corinthians 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Colossians 3:16  Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:15-21  See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Psalms 1:1-150:6

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
James 4:4
1 Corinthians 15:33

Romans 13:12-14

Do all these scriptures have specific commandments in regards to music? No. But viewed as a whole they should certainly shape my choices in music.

I contend then that CCM, the genre, is off limits to the Christian. I further contend that my choices in music must be clearly moral in nature.

Music. Moral, immoral or amoral, what say ye?

 

[Ransom]

So, if God said so much about music, it must not then be amoral. There must be moral and immoral music.

Good. Glad you realize that.

Now, why don't you inform us which kinds of music are moral and immoral, citing examples of each genre. Since you spent so much time talking about CCM, please feel free to limit yourself to that category, as well.

It's clear enough that you aren't merely soliciting others' opinions. You're raring to tell us yours. So don't let us stop you. Go crazy.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

I think that applies to music as well.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

I think that applies to music as well.

Sure. but it doesn't supercede or cancel out other Biblical principles. And it needs to be looked at in light of the context in which it was written.

So, food itself is amoral, just as the letters of the alphabet or the notes of music, but arrange them in a pattern and they are either moral or immoral or, as the last half of the verse indicates, left to conscience/conviction/preference. My food is amoral, but offer it to an idol, or prepare it un-biblically (I am not referring to kosher, but things strangled, or not bled out) not so clear. Especially not so clear to a "weaker" brother.

The first half of Romans 14:1 doesn't trump 2 Corinthians 6:14, it fleshes out or adds to my ability to discern. It also tell me that in grey areas, I am left to my conscience/conviction/preference. What I have to be careful is that I do not simply place all music in the grey area and go on doing what I want and justifying it Biblically.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

I think that applies to music as well.

Sure. but it doesn't supercede or cancel out other Biblical principles. And it needs to be looked at in light of the context in which it was written.

So, food itself is amoral, just as the letters of the alphabet or the notes of music, but arrange them in a pattern and they are either moral or immoral or, as the last half of the verse indicates, left to conscience/conviction/preference. My food is amoral, but offer it to an idol, or prepare it un-biblically (I am not referring to kosher, but things strangled, or not bled out) not so clear. Especially not so clear to a "weaker" brother.

The first half of Romans 14:1 doesn't trump 2 Corinthians 6:14, it fleshes out or adds to my ability to discern. It also tell me that in grey areas, I am left to my conscience/conviction/preference. What I have to be careful is that I do not simply place all music in the grey area and go on doing what I want and justifying it Biblically.

Interpretation is one, application is many. The context is in regards to food and days.

In light of the food being offered to idols I should refrain if it causes my brother to stumble.

1 Corinthians 8:13  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

As far as 2 Corinthians 6:14 you shouldn't have unsaved folks playing the instruments in your Christian group.

There is nothing wrong with a guitar (even electric), drums, timbrels, saxophone, trumpet etc...

1 Corinthians 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

So I can play the drums (there is nothing wrong with the drums according to the Bible) to the glory of God!

Ephesians 5:19  Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Building 429: "Where I Belong" Official Music Video

Now if the CCM offends your conscience you shouldn't listen to it if you are that weak in the faith.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Interpretation is one, application is many. The context is in regards to food and days.

In light of the food being offered to idols I should refrain if it causes my brother to stumble.

1 Corinthians 8:13  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

As far as 2 Corinthians 6:14 you shouldn't have unsaved folks playing the instruments in your Christian group.

There is nothing wrong with a guitar (even electric), drums, timbrels, saxophone, trumpet etc...

1 Corinthians 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

So I can play the drums (there is nothing wrong with the drums according to the Bible) to the glory of God!

Ephesians 5:19  Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Building 429: "Where I Belong" Official Music Video

Now if the CCM offends your conscience you shouldn't listen to it if you are that weak in the faith.

So first of all, no, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with drums as many have proclaimed. The basic groupings of instruments are Stringed, Percussion and Wind (both Woodwind and Brass). None have anything intrinsically wrong with them. BUT they must be used in a manner that glorifies God. I venture to say that most drummers do not, and the music they play does not. Preachers railed against drums due to the over influence of drums in music. All music has a beat/rhythm, but the use of drums popularized from the 50's on overemphasized the rhythm in music.

Your last statement is the telling one. You are implying that your have grown to such a mature level that nothing is off limits to you, due to your strength in the faith.

So, by implication, only the weak:
Abstain from cigarettes, alcohol, drugs
Avoid the temptation of fornication or adultery.
Of course these examples are ridiculous, but so is your claim that CCM does not offend your conscience because of your strength in the faith.

So lets ask another question,  in the video example you left, are the musicians attempting to glorify God or themselves? Is the crowd going to scream "Glory to God" or an equivalent statement or "Glory to Building 429"? Are the listeners going to leave with the impression that God is great or that Jason Roy, Michael Anderson, Jesse Garcia and Aaron Branch are great?

I don't think the lyrics are a big problem. I could call them theologically weak, but they don't contradict scripture. That's a wash.

But the arrangement of the notes, the presentation of the musicians, and the overall appearance doesn't cause me to think of god, it causes me to think of every other secular pop/rock artist.

Looked at with discernment, it fails my test of meeting the scriptures.

See, the reality is when lack of point form scripture exists, we must apply discernment.

 

[subllibrm]

Discern this

Keith & Kristyn Getty "In Christ Alone"

 

[Mathew Ward]

Interpretation is one, application is many. The context is in regards to food and days.

In light of the food being offered to idols I should refrain if it causes my brother to stumble.

1 Corinthians 8:13  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

As far as 2 Corinthians 6:14 you shouldn't have unsaved folks playing the instruments in your Christian group.

There is nothing wrong with a guitar (even electric), drums, timbrels, saxophone, trumpet etc...

1 Corinthians 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

So I can play the drums (there is nothing wrong with the drums according to the Bible) to the glory of God!

Ephesians 5:19  Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Building 429: "Where I Belong" Official Music Video

Now if the CCM offends your conscience you shouldn't listen to it if you are that weak in the faith.

So first of all, no, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with drums as many have proclaimed. The basic groupings of instruments are Stringed, Percussion and Wind (both Woodwind and Brass). None have anything intrinsically wrong with them. BUT they must be used in a manner that glorifies God. I venture to say that most drummers do not, and the music they play does not. Preachers railed against drums due to the over influence of drums in music. All music has a beat/rhythm, but the use of drums popularized from the 50's on overemphasized the rhythm in music.

Your last statement is the telling one. You are implying that your have grown to such a mature level that nothing is off limits to you, due to your strength in the faith.

So, by implication, only the weak:
Abstain from cigarettes, alcohol, drugs
Avoid the temptation of fornication or adultery.
Of course these examples are ridiculous, but so is your claim that CCM does not offend your conscience because of your strength in the faith.

So lets ask another question,  in the video example you left, are the musicians attempting to glorify God or themselves? Is the crowd going to scream "Glory to God" or an equivalent statement or "Glory to Building 429"? Are the listeners going to leave with the impression that God is great or that Jason Roy, Michael Anderson, Jesse Garcia and Aaron Branch are great?

I don't think the lyrics are a big problem. I could call them theologically weak, but they don't contradict scripture. That's a wash.

But the arrangement of the notes, the presentation of the musicians, and the overall appearance doesn't cause me to think of god, it causes me to think of every other secular pop/rock artist.

Looked at with discernment, it fails my test of meeting the scriptures.

See, the reality is when lack of point form scripture exists, we must apply discernment.

A Christian playing the instrument in his heart to the Lord glorifies God. You are worried about how they play it and you think if they don't play it a certain way that it does not glorify God.

It seems you are violating Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. If the musicians are playing in a wrong way I am confident that the Lord will correct them.

If folks want to use their talents and play hip hop or heavy metal music to Christ they can. Those are not my preference of music genres.

As far as alcohol or cigarettes are concerned I haven't found a verse that outlines them as sin.

As far as temptation is concerned God gives plenty of warnings and outlines where those temptations go in James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

There are many things that God outlines clearly as sin, it is the commandments of men that I want to avoid.

Matthew 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I am glad you can see into my conscience and know what offends it. However I preached at a small country church for awhile that play blue grass Christian music (my least favorite genre of music). I was always encouraged by God's people singing to the Lord, not the style of music or how they played it.

My experience is that musicians who want to glorify self don't pray. I couldn't have told you their names and when I listen to the song I am thankful that this is not where I belong. I am thankful to have Christ or better stated that Christ has me.

You can continue to think that your commandments of men is discernment, I'll stick with Scripture.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Discern this

Keith & Kristyn Getty "In Christ Alone"

Simple enough.

The lyrics are God honouring and emotionally poignant. No problem here.

The notes and arrangement are beautiful, no problem here.

The Getty's are on the other hand an enigma. If we use terms like black, white and grey, they are grey. The largest contention I have with them as artists is their ecumenical stand. They clearly promote a one world church, so I do not have their stuff, but I do have the sheet music to this song and have used it as a special in church.

I mentioned earlier that the composer played a role in music choices, some of my friends would use this song, some wouldn't. Back to a conscience issue. On the role of the composer, I vacillate a little.

There, I discerned sullibrm

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

You can continue to think that your commandments of men is discernment, I'll stick with Scripture.

I didn't give you commandments of men, I gave you some scriptural principles.

I also used the term conscience carefully, I always do as it is simply not an accurate guideline. Our consciences are formed, and can be either seared or defiled or hyper-sensitive. And I never said I could see your conscience, you claimed there was a problem with my faith because I see problems in CCM. Let me quote you.

Now if the CCM offends your conscience you shouldn't listen to it if you are that weak in the faith.

Now let me quote me

Of course these examples are ridiculous, but so is your claim that CCM does not offend your conscience because of your strength in the faith.

If you say I am weak in the faith because CCM offends my conscience, you are conversely saying that you are strong(er) in the faith because CCM does not offend your conscience.

 

[Mathew Ward]

You can continue to think that your commandments of men is discernment, I'll stick with Scripture.

I didn't give you commandments of men, I gave you some scriptural principles.

I also used the term conscience carefully, I always do as it is simply not an accurate guideline. Our consciences are formed, and can be either seared or defiled or hyper-sensitive. And I never said I could see your conscience, you claimed there was a problem with my faith because I see problems in CCM. Let me quote you.

Now if the CCM offends your conscience you shouldn't listen to it if you are that weak in the faith.

Now let me quote me

Of course these examples are ridiculous, but so is your claim that CCM does not offend your conscience because of your strength in the faith.

If you say I am weak in the faith because CCM offends my conscience, you are conversely saying that you are strong(er) in the faith because CCM does not offend your conscience.

Your scriptural principles like 2 Corinthians 6:14 were dealt with and applied to CCM.

According to Romans 14 who are the weak in faith? If we were to describe a  principle about the weak in faith what would it be?

Conversely who are the strong in faith in Romans 14? If we were to describe a principle about the strong in faith what would it be?

 

[subllibrm]

Discern this

Keith & Kristyn Getty "In Christ Alone"

Simple enough.

The lyrics are God honouring and emotionally poignant. No problem here.

The notes and arrangement are beautiful, no problem here.

The Getty's are on the other hand an enigma. If we use terms like black, white and grey, they are grey. The largest contention I have with them as artists is their ecumenical stand. They clearly promote a one world church, so I do not have their stuff, but I do have the sheet music to this song and have used it as a special in church.

I mentioned earlier that the composer played a role in music choices, some of my friends would use this song, some wouldn't. Back to a conscience issue. On the role of the composer, I vacillate a little.

There, I discerned sullibrm

And as they are CCM by your own (broad) definition then you have equivocated from the very position you started with. That or you must admit that CCM is not a "genre" as you initially claimed.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Posting crom my phone. Doesnt always turn out typed well. They certaiy are CCM, but certainly not of the same ilk as say Jars of Clay. CCM is a pretty broad term and a briad genre. I was honest in stating the music itslef was not the problem. The musician was. I also gave three criteria for discerning music. I defoned all three. I also stated the word Contemporary ifself was a non issue.

I also only said the song and it's areangement were ok. CCM artists produce acceptable music (that is lyrics and arrangement) but CCM includes the aftist.

I would use the same criteria to look at any music.

 

[Patebald]

Moral or immoral? Please explain.


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[ItinerantPreacher]

Moral or immoral? Please explain.


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I cant. BTW scripture doesnt require me to read the music to discern it. It would be nice but not required. I would have to listen to it.

 

[brainisengaged]

I read music. What is going on with that excerpt? The time signature is one thing...Common Time or 4/4. But every measure has either too many or too few beats...it is very improperly notated. Is that the point? Humming through it, quite repetitive...not recognized by myself.
So what is the point?

 

[T-Bone]

Moral or immoral? Please explain.


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I cant. BTW scripture doesnt require me to read the music to discern it. It would be nice but not required. I would have to listen to it.

So basically you are saying you are your own final authority not Scripture...that being the case you have nothing to stand on outside of your "discernment" & preference.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Moral or immoral? Please explain.


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I cant. BTW scripture doesnt require me to read the music to discern it. It would be nice but not required. I would have to listen to it.

So basically you are saying you are your own final authority not Scripture...that being the case you have nothing to stand on outside of your "discernment" & preference.

Before you know it, that discernment has defined Godly music and the acceptable standards of music for all...

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

I read music. What is going on with that excerpt? The time signature is one thing...Common Time or 4/4. But every measure has either too many or too few beats...it is very improperly notated. Is that the point? Humming through it, quite repetitive...not recognized by myself.
So what is the point?

Simple. To attempt to assert that without being able to read music one cannot make a discerning judgement concerning music.

I can read the lyrics just fine. And I can hear the notes just fine.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Moral or immoral? Please explain.


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I cant. BTW scripture doesnt require me to read the music to discern it. It would be nice but not required. I would have to listen to it.

So basically you are saying you are your own final authority not Scripture...that being the case you have nothing to stand on outside of your "discernment" & preference.

Quote me a verse that specifies the arangement of notes. Or are you your own authourity?