New Independent Baptist

[prophet]

From not a Hacker, just wanted to kinda point out a couple things re Teis article

Here is what I got from it. First of all, it was not "clearly unbiblical" as in Teis advocating completely unscrip[tural stands, it was a very very very subjective article, but it was written in a fashion as though Teis at least is rejecting everything old. "Everything old is bad, I am so glad that finally there is something new here".

...

Thats perhaps my biggest view. Teis article oozes with pride. A lot of people are looking at us IFB guys saying we ooze with spiritual pride (an oxymoron). Teis article is filled with it from top to bottom, what is troubling is that those young men he speaks about will be drawn to it out of their own youthful pride.

Josh Teis New Independent Baptist is a new name for the old term New Evangelical.

Just my opinion

I shortened the repost for sake of readability on the forum. 

I think you are approaching this with a defensive outlook.  Many of the IFB in their 50s and 60s still emulate Jack Hyles and are still defending him.  Like most people in their 60s, they don't like change.  They don't like their grandkids playing with iPads instead of playing kick the can.  They don't like anything different.  Anytime they see someone in their 40s or younger who has an idea, they seek to squelch that idea before even hearing it.  After all, if Dr. Hyles didn't think of it, it can't be good.

Like it or not, the Gospel is going to continue in the upcoming generations.  Many of us have grown up in the IFBx world.  We have been subjected to all sorts of heresy and even crimes in the name of ministry.  Many of us want to simply return to letting Christ get the glory in our conferences, churches and homes.  We believe in the sufficiency of the Scripture and have discovered that some non-IFBx authors have given us some tremendous works to help us further understand a proper application of the Scripture.

For this, we are attacked.  For reading non-IFBx-ers, for speaking of the crimes by the leaders, we are banned from churches, mocked in conferences and scorned on social media.

I don't know Josh Teis.  I had never heard of him before this article and I don't know any of his positions. 

Could it be that he simply is stating to the past generation that this is where we stand?  Could it be that he is trying to connect the young to the old by stating to the old guard that we believe the same core doctrines they have proclaimed for generations?  Could it be that "He is just trying to say that I don't do this" is reading into it from a presupposition?

I think it would be an incredible thing for the IFB to drop their silly regulations for being in each other's groups and focus on the Gospel, discipleship, ministerial counseling through the sufficiency of the Scripture and encouraging each other to do likewise.

Well written.

What most bothers me is that these new "Old Paths" people would not associate with the original Fundamentalists in the early 1900s. It's the "Old Paths" people who have changed from what originally was called Fundamentalism all the while claiming to be the "Real fundamentalists", they are not.

Their old paths are not old but new deviant paths.

You mean like R.A.T  orrey?
A man whose Salvation testimony is the same as Muhammed, and Joseph Smith?

You mean Heretics like Finney?
Darby?
Schofield?

Yeah, no.

They don't get our respect, because they never earned it.

I know you disagree. Fine.  Look at Baptists in the 19th Century vs. After the Advent of the Fundamentalist Movement.  It was their downfall.

We don't need to go back to those recent old paths....they are the great men who've all turned aside.



Earnestly Contend

These are the authors and the works that they authored. These men are the beginning of the Fundamentalist movement in the early 20th Century.

Perhaps a name other than Fundamentalist should be used if one does not support these works.


    Volume I:
        The Virgin Birth of Christ - James Orr
        The Deity of Christ - Benjamin B. Warfield
        The Purposes of the Incarnation - G. Campbell Morgan
        The Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit - R. A. Torrey
        The Proof of the Living God - Arthur T. Pierson
        History of the Higher Criticism - Dyson Hague
        A Personal Testimony - Howard A. Kelly
    Volume II:
        The Testimony of the Monuments to the Truth of the Scriptures - George Frederick Wright
        The Recent Testimony of Archaeology to the Scriptures - M. G. Kyle
        Fallacies of the Higher Criticism - Franklin Johnson
        Christ and Criticism - Robert Anderson
        Modern Philosophy - Philip Mauro
        Justification by Faith - H. C. G. Moule
        Tributes to Christ and the Bible by Brainy Men not Known as Active Christians
    Volume III:
        Inspiration of the Bible?Definition, Extent, and Proof - James M. Gray
        The Moral Glory of Jesus Christ a Proof of Inspiration - William G. Moorehead
        God in Christ the Only Revelation of the Fatherhood of God - Robert E. Speer
        The Testimony of Christian Experience - E. Y. Mullins
        Christianity No Fable - Thomas Whitelaw
        My Personal Experience with the Higher Criticism - J. J. Reeve
        The Personal Testimony of Charles T. Studd
    Volume IV:
        The Tabernacle in the Wilderness: Did it Exist? - David Heagle
        The Testimony of Christ to the Old Testament - William Caven
        The Bible and Modern Criticism - F. Bettex
        Science and Christian Faith - James Orr
        A Personal Testimony - Philip Mauro
    Volume V:
        Life in the Word - Philip Mauro
        The Scriptures - A. C. Dixon
        The Certainty and Importance of the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead - R. A. Torrey
        Observations of the Conversion and Apostleship of St. Paul - Lord Lyttleton (analyzed and condensed by J. L. Campbell)
        A Personal Testimony - H. W. Webb-Peploe
    Volume VI:
        The Testimony of Foreign Missions to the Superintending Providence of God - Arthur T. Pierson.
        Is There a God? - Thomas Whitelaw
        Sin and Judgment to Come - Robert Anderson
        The Atonement - Franklin Johnson
        The God-Man - John Stock
        The Early Narratives of Genesis - James Orr
        The Person and Work of Jesus Christ - John L. Nuelsen
        The Hope of the Church - John McNicol
    Volume VII:
        The Passing of Evolution - George Frederick Wright
        Inspiration - L. W. Munhall
        The Testimony of the Scriptures to Themselves - George S. Bishop
        Testimony of the Organic Unity of the Bible to its Inspiration - Arthur T. Pierson
        One Isaiah - George L. Robinson
        The Book of Daniel - Joseph D. Wilson
        Three Peculiarities of the Pentateuch - Andrew Craig Robinson
        Millennial Dawn: A Counterfeit of Christianity - William G. Moorehead
    Volume VIII:
        Old Testament Criticism and New Testament Christianity - W. H. Griffith Thomas
        Evolutionism in the Pulpit - Anonymous
        Decadence of Darwinism - Henry H. Beach
        Paul's Testimony to the Doctrine of Sin - Charles B. Williams
        The Science of Conversion - H. M. Sydenstricker
        The Doctrinal Value of the First Chapters of Genesis - Dyson Hague
        The Knowledge of God - James Burrell
        "Preach the Word" - Howard Crosby
        Mormonism: Its Origin, Characteristics, and Doctrines - R. G. McNiece
    Volume IX:
        The True Church - Bishop Ryle
        The Mosaic Authorship of the Pentateuch - George Frederick Wright
        The Wisdom of this World - A. W. Pitzer
        Holy Scripture and Modern Negations - James Orr
        Salvation by Grace - Thomas Spurgeon
        Divine Efficacy of Prayer - Arthur T. Pierson
        What Christ Teaches Concerning Future Retribution - William C. Procter
        A Message from Missions - Charles A. Bowen
        Eddyism: Commonly Called Christian Science - Maurice E. Wilson
    Volume X:
        Why Save the Lord's Day? - Daniel Hoffman Martin
        The Internal Evidence of the Fourth Gospel - Canon G. Osborne Troop
        The Nature of Regeneration - Thomas Boston
        Regeneration?Conversion?Reformation - George W. Lasher
        Our Lord's Teachings About Money - Arthur T. Pierson
        Satan and His Kingdom - Mrs. Jessie Penn-Lewis
        The Holy Spirit and the Sons of God - W. J. Erdman
        Consecration - Henry W. Frost
        The Apologetic Value of Paul's Epistles - E.J. Stobo
        What the Bible Contains for the Believer - George F. Pentecost
        Modern Spiritualism Briefly Tested by Scripture - Algernon J. Pollock
    Volume XI:
        The Biblical Conception of Sin - Thomas Whitelaw
        At-One-Ment by Propitiation - Dyson Hague
        The Grace of God - C. I. Scofield
        Fulfilled Prophecy A Potent Argument for the Bible - Arno C. Gaebelein
        The Coming of Christ - Charles R. Erdman
        Is Romanism Christianity? - T. W. Medhurst
        Rome, The Antagonist of the Nation - J. M. Foster
    Volume XII:
        Doctrines that Must be Emphasized in Successful Evangelism - L. W. Munhall
        Pastoral and Personal Evangelism, or Winning Men to Christ One-by-One - John Timothy Stone
        The Sunday School's True Evangelism - Charles Gallaudet Trumbull
        Foreign Missions or World-Wide Evangelism - Robert E. Speer
        What Missionary Motives Should Prevail? - Henry W. Frost
        The Place of Prayer in Evangelism - R. A. Torrey
        The Church and Socialism - Charles R. Erdman
       

You mean like R.A.T  orrey?

A man whose Salvation testimony is the same as Muhammed, and Joseph Smith?

Please provide the Salvation testimonies of these three men.
I am unaware that these men all had the same salvation testimony.

You mean Heretics like Finney?
Darby?
Schofield?

Which of the Fundamentals did Finney write?

Which one did Darby write?

C. I. Scofield did write on Grace. Don't know of a Schofield or did you mean C. I. Scofield?

I know you disagree. Fine.  Look at Baptists in the 19th Century vs. After the Advent of the Fundamentalist Movement.  It was their downfall.

We don't need to go back to those recent old paths....they are the great men who've all turned aside.

These men had these published at the beginning of the 20th century and I believe most historians would consider modern Fundamentalism traceable to the The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth.

My parents pastor W. B. Riley was a leader of this turn back to the Fundamentals of the Faith.

These men were not all Baptists, so I will not agree on everything that they have written. They were from a cross section of reformed Protestantism.

R. A. Torrey was a Congregationalist not a Baptist. Of course I would disagree on some things. The whole point of the Fundamentalist movement was to affirm the main points of the Faith as agree on by Christians of many denominations. The Fundamentals. Many people are saved and children of God that do not agree with my Baptist convictions.

Perhaps Fundamentalist and Baptist do not go well together. Fundamental as used in the 20th century was an inclusive word used by many denominations while Baptist is an exclusive word used by a more separatist group of Christians holding to the Baptist Distinctives.

The Fundamentalist movement was ecumenical in scope from its inception. Words have meaning and words matter.

My point is that none of these 3 men have a Salvation testimony.
They all 3 claim to have been given special revelation by God directly from an Angel who appeared to them.

Torrey claimed to be a skeptic ( no small wonder, since he was twisted at Leipzig, and started off behind the 8-ball as a Congregationalist) until an Angel came to trouble him one night.
He cried out to God that he would surrender to the call to preach, if only this heaviness would leave him....then spent the rest of his life propagating the errors of Darby, Wescott and Hort.

This is all we get from him...a visit from an Angel, no repentance from doubting God's Word.



Earnestly Contend

 

[bgwilkinson]

From not a Hacker, just wanted to kinda point out a couple things re Teis article

Here is what I got from it. First of all, it was not "clearly unbiblical" as in Teis advocating completely unscrip[tural stands, it was a very very very subjective article, but it was written in a fashion as though Teis at least is rejecting everything old. "Everything old is bad, I am so glad that finally there is something new here".

...

Thats perhaps my biggest view. Teis article oozes with pride. A lot of people are looking at us IFB guys saying we ooze with spiritual pride (an oxymoron). Teis article is filled with it from top to bottom, what is troubling is that those young men he speaks about will be drawn to it out of their own youthful pride.

Josh Teis New Independent Baptist is a new name for the old term New Evangelical.

Just my opinion

I shortened the repost for sake of readability on the forum. 

I think you are approaching this with a defensive outlook.  Many of the IFB in their 50s and 60s still emulate Jack Hyles and are still defending him.  Like most people in their 60s, they don't like change.  They don't like their grandkids playing with iPads instead of playing kick the can.  They don't like anything different.  Anytime they see someone in their 40s or younger who has an idea, they seek to squelch that idea before even hearing it.  After all, if Dr. Hyles didn't think of it, it can't be good.

Like it or not, the Gospel is going to continue in the upcoming generations.  Many of us have grown up in the IFBx world.  We have been subjected to all sorts of heresy and even crimes in the name of ministry.  Many of us want to simply return to letting Christ get the glory in our conferences, churches and homes.  We believe in the sufficiency of the Scripture and have discovered that some non-IFBx authors have given us some tremendous works to help us further understand a proper application of the Scripture.

For this, we are attacked.  For reading non-IFBx-ers, for speaking of the crimes by the leaders, we are banned from churches, mocked in conferences and scorned on social media.

I don't know Josh Teis.  I had never heard of him before this article and I don't know any of his positions. 

Could it be that he simply is stating to the past generation that this is where we stand?  Could it be that he is trying to connect the young to the old by stating to the old guard that we believe the same core doctrines they have proclaimed for generations?  Could it be that "He is just trying to say that I don't do this" is reading into it from a presupposition?

I think it would be an incredible thing for the IFB to drop their silly regulations for being in each other's groups and focus on the Gospel, discipleship, ministerial counseling through the sufficiency of the Scripture and encouraging each other to do likewise.

Well written.

What most bothers me is that these new "Old Paths" people would not associate with the original Fundamentalists in the early 1900s. It's the "Old Paths" people who have changed from what originally was called Fundamentalism all the while claiming to be the "Real fundamentalists", they are not.

Their old paths are not old but new deviant paths.

You mean like R.A.T  orrey?
A man whose Salvation testimony is the same as Muhammed, and Joseph Smith?

You mean Heretics like Finney?
Darby?
Schofield?

Yeah, no.

They don't get our respect, because they never earned it.

I know you disagree. Fine.  Look at Baptists in the 19th Century vs. After the Advent of the Fundamentalist Movement.  It was their downfall.

We don't need to go back to those recent old paths....they are the great men who've all turned aside.



Earnestly Contend

These are the authors and the works that they authored. These men are the beginning of the Fundamentalist movement in the early 20th Century.

Perhaps a name other than Fundamentalist should be used if one does not support these works.


    Volume I:
        The Virgin Birth of Christ - James Orr
        The Deity of Christ - Benjamin B. Warfield
        The Purposes of the Incarnation - G. Campbell Morgan
        The Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit - R. A. Torrey
        The Proof of the Living God - Arthur T. Pierson
        History of the Higher Criticism - Dyson Hague
        A Personal Testimony - Howard A. Kelly
    Volume II:
        The Testimony of the Monuments to the Truth of the Scriptures - George Frederick Wright
        The Recent Testimony of Archaeology to the Scriptures - M. G. Kyle
        Fallacies of the Higher Criticism - Franklin Johnson
        Christ and Criticism - Robert Anderson
        Modern Philosophy - Philip Mauro
        Justification by Faith - H. C. G. Moule
        Tributes to Christ and the Bible by Brainy Men not Known as Active Christians
    Volume III:
        Inspiration of the Bible?Definition, Extent, and Proof - James M. Gray
        The Moral Glory of Jesus Christ a Proof of Inspiration - William G. Moorehead
        God in Christ the Only Revelation of the Fatherhood of God - Robert E. Speer
        The Testimony of Christian Experience - E. Y. Mullins
        Christianity No Fable - Thomas Whitelaw
        My Personal Experience with the Higher Criticism - J. J. Reeve
        The Personal Testimony of Charles T. Studd
    Volume IV:
        The Tabernacle in the Wilderness: Did it Exist? - David Heagle
        The Testimony of Christ to the Old Testament - William Caven
        The Bible and Modern Criticism - F. Bettex
        Science and Christian Faith - James Orr
        A Personal Testimony - Philip Mauro
    Volume V:
        Life in the Word - Philip Mauro
        The Scriptures - A. C. Dixon
        The Certainty and Importance of the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead - R. A. Torrey
        Observations of the Conversion and Apostleship of St. Paul - Lord Lyttleton (analyzed and condensed by J. L. Campbell)
        A Personal Testimony - H. W. Webb-Peploe
    Volume VI:
        The Testimony of Foreign Missions to the Superintending Providence of God - Arthur T. Pierson.
        Is There a God? - Thomas Whitelaw
        Sin and Judgment to Come - Robert Anderson
        The Atonement - Franklin Johnson
        The God-Man - John Stock
        The Early Narratives of Genesis - James Orr
        The Person and Work of Jesus Christ - John L. Nuelsen
        The Hope of the Church - John McNicol
    Volume VII:
        The Passing of Evolution - George Frederick Wright
        Inspiration - L. W. Munhall
        The Testimony of the Scriptures to Themselves - George S. Bishop
        Testimony of the Organic Unity of the Bible to its Inspiration - Arthur T. Pierson
        One Isaiah - George L. Robinson
        The Book of Daniel - Joseph D. Wilson
        Three Peculiarities of the Pentateuch - Andrew Craig Robinson
        Millennial Dawn: A Counterfeit of Christianity - William G. Moorehead
    Volume VIII:
        Old Testament Criticism and New Testament Christianity - W. H. Griffith Thomas
        Evolutionism in the Pulpit - Anonymous
        Decadence of Darwinism - Henry H. Beach
        Paul's Testimony to the Doctrine of Sin - Charles B. Williams
        The Science of Conversion - H. M. Sydenstricker
        The Doctrinal Value of the First Chapters of Genesis - Dyson Hague
        The Knowledge of God - James Burrell
        "Preach the Word" - Howard Crosby
        Mormonism: Its Origin, Characteristics, and Doctrines - R. G. McNiece
    Volume IX:
        The True Church - Bishop Ryle
        The Mosaic Authorship of the Pentateuch - George Frederick Wright
        The Wisdom of this World - A. W. Pitzer
        Holy Scripture and Modern Negations - James Orr
        Salvation by Grace - Thomas Spurgeon
        Divine Efficacy of Prayer - Arthur T. Pierson
        What Christ Teaches Concerning Future Retribution - William C. Procter
        A Message from Missions - Charles A. Bowen
        Eddyism: Commonly Called Christian Science - Maurice E. Wilson
    Volume X:
        Why Save the Lord's Day? - Daniel Hoffman Martin
        The Internal Evidence of the Fourth Gospel - Canon G. Osborne Troop
        The Nature of Regeneration - Thomas Boston
        Regeneration?Conversion?Reformation - George W. Lasher
        Our Lord's Teachings About Money - Arthur T. Pierson
        Satan and His Kingdom - Mrs. Jessie Penn-Lewis
        The Holy Spirit and the Sons of God - W. J. Erdman
        Consecration - Henry W. Frost
        The Apologetic Value of Paul's Epistles - E.J. Stobo
        What the Bible Contains for the Believer - George F. Pentecost
        Modern Spiritualism Briefly Tested by Scripture - Algernon J. Pollock
    Volume XI:
        The Biblical Conception of Sin - Thomas Whitelaw
        At-One-Ment by Propitiation - Dyson Hague
        The Grace of God - C. I. Scofield
        Fulfilled Prophecy A Potent Argument for the Bible - Arno C. Gaebelein
        The Coming of Christ - Charles R. Erdman
        Is Romanism Christianity? - T. W. Medhurst
        Rome, The Antagonist of the Nation - J. M. Foster
    Volume XII:
        Doctrines that Must be Emphasized in Successful Evangelism - L. W. Munhall
        Pastoral and Personal Evangelism, or Winning Men to Christ One-by-One - John Timothy Stone
        The Sunday School's True Evangelism - Charles Gallaudet Trumbull
        Foreign Missions or World-Wide Evangelism - Robert E. Speer
        What Missionary Motives Should Prevail? - Henry W. Frost
        The Place of Prayer in Evangelism - R. A. Torrey
        The Church and Socialism - Charles R. Erdman
       

You mean like R.A.T  orrey?

A man whose Salvation testimony is the same as Muhammed, and Joseph Smith?

Please provide the Salvation testimonies of these three men.
I am unaware that these men all had the same salvation testimony.

You mean Heretics like Finney?
Darby?
Schofield?

Which of the Fundamentals did Finney write?

Which one did Darby write?

C. I. Scofield did write on Grace. Don't know of a Schofield or did you mean C. I. Scofield?

I know you disagree. Fine.  Look at Baptists in the 19th Century vs. After the Advent of the Fundamentalist Movement.  It was their downfall.

We don't need to go back to those recent old paths....they are the great men who've all turned aside.

These men had these published at the beginning of the 20th century and I believe most historians would consider modern Fundamentalism traceable to the The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth.

My parents pastor W. B. Riley was a leader of this turn back to the Fundamentals of the Faith.

These men were not all Baptists, so I will not agree on everything that they have written. They were from a cross section of reformed Protestantism.

R. A. Torrey was a Congregationalist not a Baptist. Of course I would disagree on some things. The whole point of the Fundamentalist movement was to affirm the main points of the Faith as agree on by Christians of many denominations. The Fundamentals. Many people are saved and children of God that do not agree with my Baptist convictions.

Perhaps Fundamentalist and Baptist do not go well together. Fundamental as used in the 20th century was an inclusive word used by many denominations while Baptist is an exclusive word used by a more separatist group of Christians holding to the Baptist Distinctives.

The Fundamentalist movement was ecumenical in scope from its inception. Words have meaning and words matter.

My point is that none of these 3 men have a Salvation testimony.
They all 3 claim to have been given special revelation by God directly from an Angel who appeared to them.

Torrey claimed to be a skeptic ( no small wonder, since he was twisted at Leipzig, and started off behind the 8-ball as a Congregationalist) until an Angel came to trouble him one night.
He cried out to God that he would surrender to the call to preach, if only this heaviness would leave him....then spent the rest of his life propagating the errors of Darby, Wescott and Hort.

This is all we get from him...a visit from an Angel, no repentance from doubting God's Word.



Earnestly Contend

then spent the rest of his life propagating the errors of Darby, Wescott and Hort.

Would you be so kind to list two errors each for these men?
Please cite original sources.
Thanks

 

[prophet]

From not a Hacker, just wanted to kinda point out a couple things re Teis article

Here is what I got from it. First of all, it was not "clearly unbiblical" as in Teis advocating completely unscrip[tural stands, it was a very very very subjective article, but it was written in a fashion as though Teis at least is rejecting everything old. "Everything old is bad, I am so glad that finally there is something new here".

...

Thats perhaps my biggest view. Teis article oozes with pride. A lot of people are looking at us IFB guys saying we ooze with spiritual pride (an oxymoron). Teis article is filled with it from top to bottom, what is troubling is that those young men he speaks about will be drawn to it out of their own youthful pride.

Josh Teis New Independent Baptist is a new name for the old term New Evangelical.

Just my opinion

I shortened the repost for sake of readability on the forum. 

I think you are approaching this with a defensive outlook.  Many of the IFB in their 50s and 60s still emulate Jack Hyles and are still defending him.  Like most people in their 60s, they don't like change.  They don't like their grandkids playing with iPads instead of playing kick the can.  They don't like anything different.  Anytime they see someone in their 40s or younger who has an idea, they seek to squelch that idea before even hearing it.  After all, if Dr. Hyles didn't think of it, it can't be good.

Like it or not, the Gospel is going to continue in the upcoming generations.  Many of us have grown up in the IFBx world.  We have been subjected to all sorts of heresy and even crimes in the name of ministry.  Many of us want to simply return to letting Christ get the glory in our conferences, churches and homes.  We believe in the sufficiency of the Scripture and have discovered that some non-IFBx authors have given us some tremendous works to help us further understand a proper application of the Scripture.

For this, we are attacked.  For reading non-IFBx-ers, for speaking of the crimes by the leaders, we are banned from churches, mocked in conferences and scorned on social media.

I don't know Josh Teis.  I had never heard of him before this article and I don't know any of his positions. 

Could it be that he simply is stating to the past generation that this is where we stand?  Could it be that he is trying to connect the young to the old by stating to the old guard that we believe the same core doctrines they have proclaimed for generations?  Could it be that "He is just trying to say that I don't do this" is reading into it from a presupposition?

I think it would be an incredible thing for the IFB to drop their silly regulations for being in each other's groups and focus on the Gospel, discipleship, ministerial counseling through the sufficiency of the Scripture and encouraging each other to do likewise.

Well written.

What most bothers me is that these new "Old Paths" people would not associate with the original Fundamentalists in the early 1900s. It's the "Old Paths" people who have changed from what originally was called Fundamentalism all the while claiming to be the "Real fundamentalists", they are not.

Their old paths are not old but new deviant paths.

You mean like R.A.T  orrey?
A man whose Salvation testimony is the same as Muhammed, and Joseph Smith?

You mean Heretics like Finney?
Darby?
Schofield?

Yeah, no.

They don't get our respect, because they never earned it.

I know you disagree. Fine.  Look at Baptists in the 19th Century vs. After the Advent of the Fundamentalist Movement.  It was their downfall.

We don't need to go back to those recent old paths....they are the great men who've all turned aside.



Earnestly Contend

These are the authors and the works that they authored. These men are the beginning of the Fundamentalist movement in the early 20th Century.

Perhaps a name other than Fundamentalist should be used if one does not support these works.


    Volume I:
        The Virgin Birth of Christ - James Orr
        The Deity of Christ - Benjamin B. Warfield
        The Purposes of the Incarnation - G. Campbell Morgan
        The Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit - R. A. Torrey
        The Proof of the Living God - Arthur T. Pierson
        History of the Higher Criticism - Dyson Hague
        A Personal Testimony - Howard A. Kelly
    Volume II:
        The Testimony of the Monuments to the Truth of the Scriptures - George Frederick Wright
        The Recent Testimony of Archaeology to the Scriptures - M. G. Kyle
        Fallacies of the Higher Criticism - Franklin Johnson
        Christ and Criticism - Robert Anderson
        Modern Philosophy - Philip Mauro
        Justification by Faith - H. C. G. Moule
        Tributes to Christ and the Bible by Brainy Men not Known as Active Christians
    Volume III:
        Inspiration of the Bible?Definition, Extent, and Proof - James M. Gray
        The Moral Glory of Jesus Christ a Proof of Inspiration - William G. Moorehead
        God in Christ the Only Revelation of the Fatherhood of God - Robert E. Speer
        The Testimony of Christian Experience - E. Y. Mullins
        Christianity No Fable - Thomas Whitelaw
        My Personal Experience with the Higher Criticism - J. J. Reeve
        The Personal Testimony of Charles T. Studd
    Volume IV:
        The Tabernacle in the Wilderness: Did it Exist? - David Heagle
        The Testimony of Christ to the Old Testament - William Caven
        The Bible and Modern Criticism - F. Bettex
        Science and Christian Faith - James Orr
        A Personal Testimony - Philip Mauro
    Volume V:
        Life in the Word - Philip Mauro
        The Scriptures - A. C. Dixon
        The Certainty and Importance of the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead - R. A. Torrey
        Observations of the Conversion and Apostleship of St. Paul - Lord Lyttleton (analyzed and condensed by J. L. Campbell)
        A Personal Testimony - H. W. Webb-Peploe
    Volume VI:
        The Testimony of Foreign Missions to the Superintending Providence of God - Arthur T. Pierson.
        Is There a God? - Thomas Whitelaw
        Sin and Judgment to Come - Robert Anderson
        The Atonement - Franklin Johnson
        The God-Man - John Stock
        The Early Narratives of Genesis - James Orr
        The Person and Work of Jesus Christ - John L. Nuelsen
        The Hope of the Church - John McNicol
    Volume VII:
        The Passing of Evolution - George Frederick Wright
        Inspiration - L. W. Munhall
        The Testimony of the Scriptures to Themselves - George S. Bishop
        Testimony of the Organic Unity of the Bible to its Inspiration - Arthur T. Pierson
        One Isaiah - George L. Robinson
        The Book of Daniel - Joseph D. Wilson
        Three Peculiarities of the Pentateuch - Andrew Craig Robinson
        Millennial Dawn: A Counterfeit of Christianity - William G. Moorehead
    Volume VIII:
        Old Testament Criticism and New Testament Christianity - W. H. Griffith Thomas
        Evolutionism in the Pulpit - Anonymous
        Decadence of Darwinism - Henry H. Beach
        Paul's Testimony to the Doctrine of Sin - Charles B. Williams
        The Science of Conversion - H. M. Sydenstricker
        The Doctrinal Value of the First Chapters of Genesis - Dyson Hague
        The Knowledge of God - James Burrell
        "Preach the Word" - Howard Crosby
        Mormonism: Its Origin, Characteristics, and Doctrines - R. G. McNiece
    Volume IX:
        The True Church - Bishop Ryle
        The Mosaic Authorship of the Pentateuch - George Frederick Wright
        The Wisdom of this World - A. W. Pitzer
        Holy Scripture and Modern Negations - James Orr
        Salvation by Grace - Thomas Spurgeon
        Divine Efficacy of Prayer - Arthur T. Pierson
        What Christ Teaches Concerning Future Retribution - William C. Procter
        A Message from Missions - Charles A. Bowen
        Eddyism: Commonly Called Christian Science - Maurice E. Wilson
    Volume X:
        Why Save the Lord's Day? - Daniel Hoffman Martin
        The Internal Evidence of the Fourth Gospel - Canon G. Osborne Troop
        The Nature of Regeneration - Thomas Boston
        Regeneration?Conversion?Reformation - George W. Lasher
        Our Lord's Teachings About Money - Arthur T. Pierson
        Satan and His Kingdom - Mrs. Jessie Penn-Lewis
        The Holy Spirit and the Sons of God - W. J. Erdman
        Consecration - Henry W. Frost
        The Apologetic Value of Paul's Epistles - E.J. Stobo
        What the Bible Contains for the Believer - George F. Pentecost
        Modern Spiritualism Briefly Tested by Scripture - Algernon J. Pollock
    Volume XI:
        The Biblical Conception of Sin - Thomas Whitelaw
        At-One-Ment by Propitiation - Dyson Hague
        The Grace of God - C. I. Scofield
        Fulfilled Prophecy A Potent Argument for the Bible - Arno C. Gaebelein
        The Coming of Christ - Charles R. Erdman
        Is Romanism Christianity? - T. W. Medhurst
        Rome, The Antagonist of the Nation - J. M. Foster
    Volume XII:
        Doctrines that Must be Emphasized in Successful Evangelism - L. W. Munhall
        Pastoral and Personal Evangelism, or Winning Men to Christ One-by-One - John Timothy Stone
        The Sunday School's True Evangelism - Charles Gallaudet Trumbull
        Foreign Missions or World-Wide Evangelism - Robert E. Speer
        What Missionary Motives Should Prevail? - Henry W. Frost
        The Place of Prayer in Evangelism - R. A. Torrey
        The Church and Socialism - Charles R. Erdman
       

You mean like R.A.T  orrey?

A man whose Salvation testimony is the same as Muhammed, and Joseph Smith?

Please provide the Salvation testimonies of these three men.
I am unaware that these men all had the same salvation testimony.

You mean Heretics like Finney?
Darby?
Schofield?

Which of the Fundamentals did Finney write?

Which one did Darby write?

C. I. Scofield did write on Grace. Don't know of a Schofield or did you mean C. I. Scofield?

I know you disagree. Fine.  Look at Baptists in the 19th Century vs. After the Advent of the Fundamentalist Movement.  It was their downfall.

We don't need to go back to those recent old paths....they are the great men who've all turned aside.

These men had these published at the beginning of the 20th century and I believe most historians would consider modern Fundamentalism traceable to the The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth.

My parents pastor W. B. Riley was a leader of this turn back to the Fundamentals of the Faith.

These men were not all Baptists, so I will not agree on everything that they have written. They were from a cross section of reformed Protestantism.

R. A. Torrey was a Congregationalist not a Baptist. Of course I would disagree on some things. The whole point of the Fundamentalist movement was to affirm the main points of the Faith as agree on by Christians of many denominations. The Fundamentals. Many people are saved and children of God that do not agree with my Baptist convictions.

Perhaps Fundamentalist and Baptist do not go well together. Fundamental as used in the 20th century was an inclusive word used by many denominations while Baptist is an exclusive word used by a more separatist group of Christians holding to the Baptist Distinctives.

The Fundamentalist movement was ecumenical in scope from its inception. Words have meaning and words matter.

My point is that none of these 3 men have a Salvation testimony.
They all 3 claim to have been given special revelation by God directly from an Angel who appeared to them.

Torrey claimed to be a skeptic ( no small wonder, since he was twisted at Leipzig, and started off behind the 8-ball as a Congregationalist) until an Angel came to trouble him one night.
He cried out to God that he would surrender to the call to preach, if only this heaviness would leave him....then spent the rest of his life propagating the errors of Darby, Wescott and Hort.

This is all we get from him...a visit from an Angel, no repentance from doubting God's Word.



Earnestly Contend

then spent the rest of his life propagating the errors of Darby, Wescott and Hort.

Would you be so kind to list two errors each for these men?
Please cite original sources.
Thanks

Since I already know where you stand on this, I find your request to be disingenuous.

As to all those authors and books you cited..."these be thy gods, O Israel".

You and I will never agree on this subject, and rehashing the versions issue wasnt my purpose.
Another time, another thread, it will come up.

You've done your homework, we've read the same source materials, you and I.
So, instead of setting up sources on a teeball, for each other to knock off, why don't we address principles, and discuss Scripture?

I'll start:

Where in Scripture are we admonished to start movements?

Are movements even of God?



Earnestly Contend

 

[bgwilkinson]

Since I already know where you stand on this, I find your request to be disingenuous.

As to all those authors and books you cited..."these be thy gods, O Israel".

You and I will never agree on this subject, and rehashing the versions issue wasnt my purpose.
Another time, another thread, it will come up.

You've done your homework, we've read the same source materials, you and I.
So, instead of setting up sources on a teeball, for each other to knock off, why don't we address principles, and discuss Scripture?

I'll start:

Where in Scripture are we admonished to start movements?

Are movements even of God?



Earnestly Contend

Since I already know where you stand on this, I find your request to be disingenuous.

What spcificaly are you refering to when you refer to my stand?

Why would you accuse me of lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous and insincere?

I assure you I do not intend to be any of these. Words have meanings.

As to all those authors and books you cited..."these be thy gods, O Israel".

I must not have been very clear.

Let me try again. The titles and authors I cited make up what is commonly called "The Fundamentals".

www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books%20II/Torrey%20-%20The%20Fundamentals%201.pdf
www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books%20II/Torrey%20-%20The%20Fundamentals%202.pdf
www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books%20II/Torrey%20-%20The%20Fundamentals%203.pdf
www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books%20II/Torrey%20-%20The%20Fundamentals%204.pdf

They were originally published in 12 small books and distributed to hundreds of thousands of Christians free of any charge in the early 20th century.

I cited them because It is a historical fact that these were written and published and are generally credited with the promotion of Fundamentalism in the early 20th century.

These authors were a cross-section of Protestant Reformed Christianity. Of course they were not all Baptists.

I do not agree with everything each of these men wrote or believed, I did not mean to imply that I did.

The point was that Fundamentalism in America started as a truly ecumenical movement. A cross section of Christianity in America.

I'll do more on this later when I have time.

 

[Bruh]

I think they have a lot of good ideas and I agree with much of what the article says.

However, I also notice arrogance and superiority (though this would be denied and intentionally veiled.)  I also believe much of the new movement is rooted in the desires of the flesh and not so much the Holy Spirit.  I read their condescending posts on Social Media and watch as young, worldly millennial's fawn over them for making them feel good about their own compromises. 

Good people, certainly!  Are their motives pure....mostly so.  They are my friends and fellow Christians, but the movement itself is not my cup of tea. 

Finally....changing what you are legalistic over is still legalism.  Saying that you should only sing songs that directly address God (singing to him, instead of singing about him) is still legalism.  Saying you should only preach expository sermons is still legalism.  Promoting casual dress as superior to Sunday Best is still legalism. 

Independent Baptists have been in a legalistic ditch for many years.  I believe my Generation (the folks who were in school when Dr. Hyles died) are making much needed course corrections.  Unfortunately, I am afraid they are going to swerve to far and just end up in another ditch.

What compromises? What worldliness? What was unbiblical about the post?

Not trying to be contentious, genuinely curious.

Worldliness and Compromise are subjective...everyone will look at it differently.  My views would be difficult to explain in person because they are not "black and white."  It is even more difficult to express in a paragraph or two of written word.

Without getting into great details that will cause conflicts, I see worldliness and compromise in CCM (not all, but most) and the focus on Pop Culture.  I am sure I watch and listen to things I shouldn't, but I never speak positively about them from the pulpit   There are plenty of crazy standards that I certainly don't preach about anymore, because they are man made and not Biblical.  The new IB's, (some of them anyway), promote the breaking of standards and encourage a more carnal lifestyle.  I don't preach against going to the beach, but I don't preach we should go to the beach either.  I don't believe that there is a universal condemnation of any and all instances of alcohol in the Bible...but I don't encourage folks to drink...even in moderation.

The new IB's, (some of them anyway), promote the breaking of standards and encourage a more carnal lifestyle.  In my opinion (for what it's worth), the underlying motive is about gathering fellow compromisers so there is no shame in the lack of separation.

Here is what they sound like to me, "We like the Newsboys, The Walking Dead, and posting pictures of ourselves on Facebook after our workouts  in our Yoga Pants and sports bra.  Let's start a church where we don't have to feel bad about that."

Thanks!

I appreciate and see the sincerity in ur post.

But ur last paragraph sums up the whole of ur post.

The Walking Dead, yoga pants, sports bra, maybe I'm not reading and following the same guys you are but I don't see those post of pictures and blogs.

Maybe you can post links? So I can see this.

If possible, I'm still waiting for links to your accusations.

 

[CONSPIRATOR]

BTW, isn't just being on this forum some type of indicator that some things may be amiss? Look at all of the 'fundamental colleges' and see that there is no activity whatsoever. If they had a constant supply of new students each semester there would be people who get angry, bitter, happy, blessed, whatever. There seems to be nothing! No scandals, no hatred, no joy, no anger, no great ministry stories; Just nothing.

Check out their Yik Yaks.  lol

 

[Bruh]

Someone needs to tell Mr.Fugate that Ted Cruze may not be the Christian man he portrays himself to be.

I just saw a picture and it was Ted Cruzes wife wearing pants. If he can't lead his home properly how can he lead a country?

Just sayn!
I think Ted is really fooling Mr. Fugate.
But than again, God did use Pharaoh.

If Mr. Fugate knew that Teds wife wore pants, do you think that Mr. Fugate would claim Ted to be as good a Christian as he does?

I'm sure Teds bible has Deuteronomy 22:5.

 

[Bruh]

I will say this about Josh, you know the "new" IFB guy, he's feminine.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Someone needs to tell Mr.Fugate that Ted Cruze may not be the Christian man he portrays himself to be.

I just saw a picture and it was Ted Cruzes wife wearing pants. If he can't lead his home properly how can he lead a country?

Just sayn!
I think Ted is really fooling Mr. Fugate.
But than again, God did use Pharaoh.

If Mr. Fugate knew that Teds wife wore pants, do you think that Mr. Fugate would claim Ted to be as good a Christian as he does?

I'm sure Teds bible has Deuteronomy 22:5.

There's the thing about Fugate... He's a chameleon, using his skill for fame.  When he is with people who have standards, so does he.  When he can grow his resume by disliking the Swors of the Lord, he does.  When that crowd fades in popularity, Fugate jumps ship to join the Sword conferences.  If he can build his name by Hong the tea party, he does  if he can build his resume by being part of an ecumenical, CCM service, he will. 

I think someone in the church should call him on it.  Then ask him why he doesn't pastor his church.  Believe it or not, there is much more to pastoring than screaming in a service, tweeting and dictating the work of your staff.

 

[Bruh]

Someone needs to tell Mr.Fugate that Ted Cruze may not be the Christian man he portrays himself to be.

I just saw a picture and it was Ted Cruzes wife wearing pants. If he can't lead his home properly how can he lead a country?

Just sayn!
I think Ted is really fooling Mr. Fugate.
But than again, God did use Pharaoh.

If Mr. Fugate knew that Teds wife wore pants, do you think that Mr. Fugate would claim Ted to be as good a Christian as he does?

I'm sure Teds bible has Deuteronomy 22:5.

There's the thing about Fugate... He's a chameleon, using his skill for fame.  When he is with people who have standards, so does he.  When he can grow his resume by disliking the Swors of the Lord, he does.  When that crowd fades in popularity, Fugate jumps ship to join the Sword conferences.  If he can build his name by Hong the tea party, he does  if he can build his resume by being part of an ecumenical, CCM service, he will. 

I think someone in the church should call him on it.  Then ask him why he doesn't pastor his church.  Believe it or not, there is much more to pastoring than screaming in a service, tweeting and dictating the work of your staff.

If Teds wife went to Mr. Fugates church she would not be able to teach children's Sunday school because she wears pants.

I'm just sayn that Cruze really ain't the Christian Fugate is saying.

 

[Walt]

Believe it or not, there is much more to pastoring than screaming in a service, tweeting and dictating the work of your staff.

Excellent!

 

[cpizzle]

I think they have a lot of good ideas and I agree with much of what the article says.



Here is what they sound like to me, "We like the Newsboys, The Walking Dead, and posting pictures of ourselves on Facebook after our workouts  in our Yoga Pants and sports bra.  Let's start a church where we don't have to feel bad about that."

Thanks!

I appreciate and see the sincerity in ur post.

But ur last paragraph sums up the whole of ur post.

The Walking Dead, yoga pants, sports bra, maybe I'm not reading and following the same guys you are but I don't see those post of pictures and blogs.

Maybe you can post links? So I can see this.

If possible, I'm still waiting for links to your accusations.

Hey,

I wouldn't say I made accusations.  This is how the movement appears to me.  I try not to "accuse the brethren"....there is someone else out there who has that title.  Just to be clear, I have not drawn a line in the sand concerning the new IB's.  I have observed them and drawn conclusions.  I may be right...I may be wrong.

However, so I don't appear completely ignorant, I will give examples like you asked.

1) A pastor in the same state as Josh Teis (and someone who has defended him and praised him in the comment section of his blog) preached a sermon where he said Lazurus came out of the tomb...."Like the Walking Dead."  The sermon is entitled "When God Doesn't Make Sense."  Now, I have never watched the Walking Dead, but I got the reference as well.  Doesn't mean it was being promoted, but he knows his audience watches it.  Instead of preaching against it, he references as common knowledge.  This wouldn't mean much (I am sure I have referenced 007, having never watched a Bond Movie), but the fact they tell us to learn Pop Culture makes this relevant.  Maybe they prefer Breaking Bad...

2) Rocco Dapice wouldn't certainly be considered a New IB (even though his Church isn't technically Baptist.)  He has a huge social following and so does his wife.  She posts pictures regularly of her Zumba workouts wearing low cut outfits and yoga pants.  Of course, I don't follow her, but my wife does and I have seen the pictures.  She gets 100's of likes from HAC graduates who are going the New IB direction.

3)  I used Newsboys because they are still very popular (God's not Dead.)  I don't personally know who listens to them, but I do know that CCM is the music of choice for New IB's.  In fact, I think CCM is their defining factor.  Who they are begins and ends with CCM.  You can decide if that is right or wrong, but they do love their Casting Crowns

Do these 3 anecdotes prove I am right...of course not.  They do add to my perception of the movement.

I am not throwing them all under the bus.  I think they are doing a good work, but I don't like the direction.  I won't discount them for the 10% we disagree on, but I won't condone that 10% either.  Either way, I am not their enemy and hope I don't come across as an accuser.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

please don't put me in any grouping with Rocco and his Cry of the Banshee wife.

They don't claim to be Baptist, please don't assume they are.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Cpizzle,

Once again you have convinced me that HACkers are idiots.  If they were ever told at HAC to be impressed with someone, they will continue to be impressed with them, no matter what.  Let the person cuss and hit students and the HACker wants his picture.  Let him rape teens, run brothels and be a general perv, and the HACker is so happy to see him again.  Let the couple go waaaaay new age and become something different and post pictures of themselves in underwear (yoga clothes)  And the HACker follows them.  What if the guy preaches absolute heresy about having sex with God?  The HAKer amens.  What if the guy his to jail for transporting a minor across state lines so she can be a ministry of god to him through sex?  The HACker kind a Facebook group to support him.

HACkers are stupid.

 

[cpizzle]

Cpizzle,

Once again you have convinced me that HACkers are idiots.  If they were ever told at HAC to be impressed with someone, they will continue to be impressed with them, no matter what.  Let the person cuss and hit students and the HACker wants his picture.  Let him rape teens, run brothels and be a general perv, and the HACker is so happy to see him again.  Let the couple go waaaaay new age and become something different and post pictures of themselves in underwear (yoga clothes)  And the HACker follows them.  What if the guy preaches absolute heresy about having sex with God?  The HAKer amens.  What if the guy his to jail for transporting a minor across state lines so she can be a ministry of god to him through sex?  The HACker kind a Facebook group to support him.

HACkers are stupid.

Wow...that escalated quickly.

I don't think HACers are idiots.  I just think they.....um what I mean to say is.......if you knew them better you would.......ok......a lot of them are idiots

But keep in mind, the same crowd that blindly followed the people going the wrong direction are many of the same crowd that have followed Capaci, Dapice, and other New IBer's in the other direction.

 

[cpizzle]

please don't put me in any grouping with Rocco and his Cry of the Banshee wife.

They don't claim to be Baptist, please don't assume they are.

Trust me...there is not a penny's difference other than the name on the sign.  Many well known New IB's promote him, his ministry, his methods, and music.  Their wives also love his wife....yoga pants and all

 

[IFB X-Files]

New IFB?

http://youtu.be/wXH0Bsqaur4

 

[Bruh]

please don't put me in any grouping with Rocco and his Cry of the Banshee wife.

They don't claim to be Baptist, please don't assume they are.

Same here!

 

[BALAAM]

please don't put me in any grouping with Rocco and his Cry of the Banshee wife.

They don't claim to be Baptist, please don't assume they are.

Oh did this make me laugh!! But, I know exactly what you mean!!

 

[prophet]

Believe it or not, there is much more to pastoring than screaming in a service, tweeting and dictating the work of your staff.

Excellent!

Since it is a made up position,  I  guess the sky is the limit.

Earnestly Contend