Nicolaitan

[The Rogue Tomato]

TRT, I didn't hit reply because the posts are long, gets cluttered.

You are obfuscating. The word in Matthew 23 is not didaskalos. It is kathegetes.

I never claimed it was didaskalos.  I was simply providing clear contextual support for translating "rabbi" as "teacher". 

John 1:38 They said to Him, “Rabbi” (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), “where are You staying?

 

[Citadel of Truth]

It all fits, and it all points to our turning away from the checks and balances that God originally installed in His system.

Again I say, you have apparently never been a part of a church that has a biblical servant-leader as pastor - one that lives I Peter 5:3, "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock."

Of course, the Nicolaitan church- kings on this forum, and in most churches we all know of, wont look into this or admit it, why would they, it would be self-defeating?

You would make a good Nicolatian (by your definition) because you have all the answers and seem to be able to predict the future.

May I ask, who will win tonight - Kansas City or San Francisco? 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Of course, the Nicolaitan church- kings on this forum, and in most churches we all know of, wont look into this or admit it, why would they, it would be self-defeating?

You would make a good Nicolatian (by your definition) because you have all the answers and seem to be able to predict the future.

May I ask, who will win tonight - Kansas City or San Francisco?

Wow.  "I know you are, but what am I?"  Good comeback. 

 

[prophet]

It all fits, and it all points to our turning away from the checks and balances that God originally installed in His system.

Again I say, you have apparently never been a part of a church that has a biblical servant-leader as pastor - one that lives I Peter 5:3, "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock."

Of course, the Nicolaitan church- kings on this forum, and in most churches we all know of, wont look into this or admit it, why would they, it would be self-defeating?

You would make a good Nicolatian (by your definition) because you have all the answers and seem to be able to predict the future.

May I ask, who will win tonight - Kansas City or San Francisco?

I'm sorry, first you have to show me where God commanded the church to elevate one elder above the others, before I will say,' hey, this isn't so bad after all'.

 

[prophet]

It all fits, and it all points to our turning away from the checks and balances that God originally installed in His system.

Of course, the Nicolaitan church- kings on this forum, and in most churches we all know of, wont look into this or admit it, why would they, it would be self-defeating?

You would make a good Nicolatian (by your definition) because you have all the answers and seem to be able to predict the future.

May I ask, who will win tonight - Kansas City or San Francisco?

Yes, I have conquered everyone, hoohooohaaahaaaaahhhhhhaaahaaa.

By my definition?

Hahahahahahaaaaaa.

Ok.

May I have a waiter who understands English please?, I'm ready to order.

 

[Ransom]

So......... What are the deeds of the Nicolaitans that God hates?

Don't know, and frankly, neither does anyone else.

Moreover, if the specifics of "Nicolaitanism" were actually important, God in his providence would have preserved reliable knowledge about this lost heresy, not just a few cryptic suggestions.

The point of Rev. 2 is not the Nicolaitans, but 1) that despite their growing cold, the Ephesians still hated what Christ hated; and 2) the Pergamans were too tolerant of what Christ hated.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Wow.  "I know you are, but what am I?"  Good comeback.

You don't get out much, do you? 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Growing up at FBCH, we were taught that this is the Denominational Board seeking to control the churches (conquer the laity) of the SBC and we should thus hate what God hates and hate the Denominational Board of the SBC.  I have since learned that not everything JH taught us was correct - including the amount of control the denominational board holds over the SBC churches.

If ignorance is bliss...FBCH must be the most tranquil place on earth.  Sure would love them to show me these "Denominational Boards"...sounds like FBCH is teaching their people to be Don Qxiote (sp).

We were taught that the DB (Denominational Board) holds the power of the purse against the pastor of an SBC.  Supposedly, if an SBC pastor were to buck against the provided Sunday School curriculum, agreed upon version, college, missionary, etc, he would no longer be given any funding and would thereby face the choice of becoming a puppet of the agenda or becoming broke.  This was the teaching we received. 

Personally, I have made friends in my personal life that are SBC pastors and seminary professors.  I have learned that everything was not as JH portrayed it to be.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Okay.  So far, if we exclude the bickering, we have a few opinions:

1.  Since the Bible does not explicitly state their error, we don't need to know it.  Hence, we should not lay accusation at others of being Nicolaitan.

2.  The Nicolaitans were lording over the flock.  In some way, they had conquered the church people.  Some claim this is any pastor, while others claim this is only the pastor who is in violation of 1 Peter 5:3.

Does any one here equate their work to that of the doctrine of Balaam or some heresy that the deacon Nicholas taught?

 

[T-Bone]

Growing up at FBCH, we were taught that this is the Denominational Board seeking to control the churches (conquer the laity) of the SBC and we should thus hate what God hates and hate the Denominational Board of the SBC.  I have since learned that not everything JH taught us was correct - including the amount of control the denominational board holds over the SBC churches.

If ignorance is bliss...FBCH must be the most tranquil place on earth.  Sure would love them to show me these "Denominational Boards"...sounds like FBCH is teaching their people to be Don Qxiote (sp).

We were taught that the DB (Denominational Board) holds the power of the purse against the pastor of an SBC.  Supposedly, if an SBC pastor were to buck against the provided Sunday School curriculum, agreed upon version, college, missionary, etc, he would no longer be given any funding and would thereby face the choice of becoming a puppet of the agenda or becoming broke.  This was the teaching we received. 

Personally, I have made friends in my personal life that are SBC pastors and seminary professors.  I have learned that everything was not as JH portrayed it to be.

There is nothing true in what you were told..there is no DB...the pastor is paid by the local autonomous Southern Baptist Church.  Each church chooses their own curriculum, their own version. SBC church are independent and voluntarily cooperate with other SBC churches....we own our own property and if we wanted to cease being SBC tomorrow , there is nothing to stop it.  The information put out by FBCH is either a blatant lie or willful ignorance...either way it is an indicator that they are the same type as Bibleburner!

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Okay.  So far, if we exclude the bickering, we have a few opinions:

1.  Since the Bible does not explicitly state their error, we don't need to know it.  Hence, we should not lay accusation at others of being Nicolaitan.

2.  The Nicolaitans were lording over the flock.  In some way, they had conquered the church people.  Some claim this is any pastor, while others claim this is only the pastor who is in violation of 1 Peter 5:3.

Does any one here equate their work to that of the doctrine of Balaam or some heresy that the deacon Nicholas taught?

Seems hard to conclude what this doctrine was dogmatically. I have pondered the connection with Balaam. The word "so" in verse 15 connects the thought to verse 14. It is also translated thus, after this manner, even so, and likewise. And it is the closest scriptural definition we would have. Fairly logical conclusion.

Still hard to state it dogmatically.

 

[Bob H]

Can we on this forum just ask a question without telling us what Jack Hyles taught. Who cares. He's gone the way of the dodo bird.

 

[Ransom]

Does any one here equate their work to that of the doctrine of Balaam or some heresy that the deacon Nicholas taught?

Rev. 2:15 begins with the words, "So also," so I would take the teachings of Balaam and the teachings of the Nicolaitans to be two distinct problems within the church at Pergamum.

If I were to draw a parallel, it would be between the toleration of the doctrine of Balaam followed by some in Pergamum, and the toleration of the doctrine of Jezebel in Thyatira (v. 20), which are described in very similar terms.

 

[Ransom]

The word "so" in verse 15 connects the thought to verse 14. It is also translated thus, after this manner, even so, and likewise.

"[Y]ou have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam. . . . So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans." The connection is not that they taught similar doctrine, but that they were similarly tolerated by the Pergamans.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

The word "so" in verse 15 connects the thought to verse 14. It is also translated thus, after this manner, even so, and likewise.

"[Y]ou have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam. . . . So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans." The connection is not that they taught similar doctrine, but that they were similarly tolerated by the Pergamans.

Your point is well merited. Commentators seem to be split on the issue. Prolly one of those things we won't solve this side of the great divide.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

So, if I were to lay charge against one who is lording over the laity, would I be wrong to use the term Nicolaitan?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

2.  The Nicolaitans were lording over the flock.  In some way, they had conquered the church people.  Some claim this is any pastor, while others claim this is only the pastor who is in violation of 1 Peter 5:3.

Yes!  That's exactly what we were thinking!  Wow, there's no pulling the wool over your eyes. 

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

So, if I were to lay charge against one who is lording over the laity, would I be wrong to use the term Nicolaitan?

Wrong? I think yes. But only because you could not be sure you were accurate.

 

[prophet]

So, if I were to lay charge against one who is lording over the laity, would I be wrong to use the term Nicolaitan?

Wrong? I think yes. But only because you could not be sure you were accurate.

Would to God that you had this same approach to teaching where God ever told us to lift up one single elder above the others, which is the unbiblical practice that caused all the problem in the first place.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Would to God that you had this same approach to teaching where God ever told us to lift up one single elder above the others, which is the unbiblical practice that caused all the problem in the first place.

Why did Paul write his pastoral epistles to a specific man and not to a body of elders?