Now.On.Earth.

I like "IndianaMike"- the evangelical's remarks in the comment section. :D

As far as the article goes....people with way too much time on their hands nitpicking stuff to death.


Other than that, I agree with some of the points raised.  I heard my pastor say very recently that this life was our "training wheels", and "this life is as good as it gets for the unbeliever, but only the anticipation of things better to come for the Christian".  I believe both are true.  Last night, as a result of my beloved brother in Christ's death, I preached from Psalm 116:15 (precious in the sight of the Lord are the death of his saints), in which I talked about death from the perspective of God, and the believer.  Death is the portal which we enter into eternal bliss.  That leaves us longing for the escape from "this body of death", but at the same time (the hear and now, yet the not yet fulfilled) we must see the purpose(s) that God leaves us here as he prepares and sanctifies us for what glory that awaits.  Paul said he'd love to be with the Lord, but it was more needful that he stay and do the ministry that God had called him to, and that is true for us as well.
 
[quote author=ALAYMAN]Death is the portal which we enter into eternal bliss.[/quote]

No. No. No. No. No.

You just made the author's point.

Jesus, Incarnate Life, is the portal which we enter into eternal bliss. That eternal bliss is now. Your "forever" is happening at this very moment if you are in Christ. You are living in the glory that awaits and it is being fulfilled around you every day. The message that Jesus spread wasn't that "one day the Kingdom will arrive" but that "the Kingdom is here".

Death is the enemy, and thank God in Christ that Jesus defeated even that enemy on the cross.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=ALAYMAN]Death is the portal which we enter into eternal bliss.
Click to expand...

No. No. No. No. No.

You just made the author's point.

Jesus, Incarnate Life, is the portal which we enter into eternal bliss. That eternal bliss is now. Your "forever" is happening at this very moment if you are in Christ. You are living in the glory that awaits and it is being fulfilled around you every day. The message that Jesus spread wasn't that "one day the Kingdom will arrive" but that "the Kingdom is here".

Death is the enemy, and thank God in Christ that Jesus defeated even that enemy on the cross.
[/quote]

What about the all the above answer? ;)
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=ALAYMAN]Death is the portal which we enter into eternal bliss.
Click to expand...

No. No. No. No. No.

You just made the author's point.

Jesus, Incarnate Life, is the portal which we enter into eternal bliss. That eternal bliss is now. Your "forever" is happening at this very moment if you are in Christ. You are living in the glory that awaits and it is being fulfilled around you every day. The message that Jesus spread wasn't that "one day the Kingdom will arrive" but that "the Kingdom is here".

Death is the enemy, and thank God in Christ that Jesus defeated even that enemy on the cross.
[/quote]

It wouldn't be fitting if I agreed with you/him now, would it?

I gave you foundational support from Scripture for my understanding that death is the portal to something better.  Paul spoke about things that he couldn't even articulate.  If you think life now is the same equivalent of life where no sin is prevalent, within or without us, you are living in a fantasy land that is unbiblical.
 
[quote author=ALAYMAN]I gave you foundational support from Scripture for my understanding that death is the portal to something better.  Paul spoke...[/quote]

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.” (John 11:23-27, ESV)

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. (Romans 8:1-6, ESV)

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:12-28, ESV)

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:1-4, ESV)



So you have a single sentence ripped out of its poetic context and I have the whole of the New Testament telling me that Jesus is Life and death is the enemy. I'll stick with my statement.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=ALAYMAN]I gave you foundational support from Scripture for my understanding that death is the portal to something better.  Paul spoke...
Click to expand...

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.” (John 11:23-27, ESV)

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. (Romans 8:1-6, ESV)

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:12-28, ESV)

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:1-4, ESV)



So you have a single sentence ripped out of its poetic context and I have the whole of the New Testament telling me that Jesus is Life and death is the enemy. I'll stick with my statement.
[/quote]

Well, as usual, conversation here is unproductive, because you make so many leaps of bad logic and poor understanding.  The passage you claim is "ripped out of context" (Ps 116:15) is indeed well attested to in Christian tradition of being understood to mean that death is that thing which God has appointed to finally remove his children from sin.  This same notion, that sin is still present with us on earth despite us being seated in the heavenlies, was a reason that Paul wrote the following (which you conveniently danced around and ignored when you cited the Scriptures above)...


Rom 7:15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Well, as usual, conversation here is unproductive, because you make so many leaps of bad logic and poor understanding.  The passage you claim is "ripped out of context" (Ps 116:15) is indeed well attested to in Christian tradition of being understood to mean that death is that thing which God has appointed to finally remove his children from sin.  This same notion, that sin is still present with us on earth despite us being seated in the heavenlies, was a reason that Paul wrote the following (which you conveniently danced around and ignored when you cited the Scriptures above)...


Rom 7:15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Click to expand...

Yes. And Paul provided a very clear answer to "who shall deliver me from the body of this death". It's the same answer for "death is that thing which God has appointed to finally remove his children from sin".

The answer: Jesus and the cross. He is the remedy. God doesn't just provide our salvation; He is our salvation.

It really baffles me how someone who claims to be a Christ-follower can be claiming that a very explicit type of anti-Christ is a good thing. Death doesn't "remove us from sin". Death is the just consequence of our sin. It is a brokenness, not a restoring (excepting Jesus, of course).
 
rsc2a said:
Yes. And Paul provided a very clear answer to "who shall deliver me from the body of this death". It's the same answer for "death is that thing which God has appointed to finally remove his children from sin".
Click to expand...

Why did Paul long to go be with the Lord?

rsc2a said:
The answer: Jesus and the cross. He is the remedy. God doesn't just provide our salvation; He is our salvation.
Click to expand...

He is our salvation, and He promises us that He will ultimately bring us into a state of being that is completely purged from the presence of sin, but that is a "not yet" component of salvation and the kingdom.

rsc2a said:
It really baffles me how someone who claims to be a Christ-follower can be claiming that a very explicit type of anti-Christ is a good thing.
Click to expand...

I gave you the Scripture (Ps 166:15).  There isn't a contradiction, lest you create it in your own mind.  Death is the vanquished enemy, but paradoxically it is the vehicle for our final component of complete salvation (glorification).  In the same way that the cross is a hideous manifestation of the sinfulness of man, it is the glory of God to fulfill his plan of redemption.  As you would be want to say, it is not an either/or, but a both/and.
 
ALAYMAN said:
rsc2a said:
Yes. And Paul provided a very clear answer to "who shall deliver me from the body of this death". It's the same answer for "death is that thing which God has appointed to finally remove his children from sin".
Click to expand...

Why did Paul long to go be with the Lord?
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't he?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]
rsc2a said:
The answer: Jesus and the cross. He is the remedy. God doesn't just provide our salvation; He is our salvation.
Click to expand...

He is our salvation, and He promises us that He will ultimately bring us into a state of being that is completely purged from the presence of sin, but that is a "not yet" component of salvation and the kingdom.[/quote]

And the fulfillment of that "not yet" is that God brings heaven to earth and restores all creation, not that we all get sucked into the sky to live "there" forever while He gleefully watches creation burn. And so we should be living our lives in a way that mirrors this reality, not living our lives for some alternate reality that will never happen. That's the whole point of the article.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]
rsc2a said:
It really baffles me how someone who claims to be a Christ-follower can be claiming that a very explicit type of anti-Christ is a good thing.
Click to expand...

I gave you the Scripture (Ps 166:15).  There isn't a contradiction, lest you create it in your own mind.  Death is the vanquished enemy, but paradoxically it is the vehicle for our final component of complete salvation (glorification).  In the same way that the cross is a hideous manifestation of the sinfulness of man, it is the glory of God to fulfill his plan of redemption.  As you would be want to say, it is not an either/or, but a both/and.[/quote]

I could give you verses that say there is no God. That doesn't mean I'm accurately representing the verses.

It's not complicated:

Jesus said "I am the Resurrection and the ________."
What is the opposite of _________?
That opposite is clearly an anti-Christ.
 
rsc2a said:
ALAYMAN said:
rsc2a said:
Yes. And Paul provided a very clear answer to "who shall deliver me from the body of this death". It's the same answer for "death is that thing which God has appointed to finally remove his children from sin".
Click to expand...

Why did Paul long to go be with the Lord?
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't he?
Click to expand...

Because according to your summation of things so far, this life we have in Christ now is equivalent to that which we will have after death.


rsc2a said:
And the fulfillment of that "not yet" is that God brings heaven to earth and restores all creation, not that we all get sucked into the sky to live "there" forever while He gleefully watches creation burn. And so we should be living our lives in a way that mirrors this reality, not living our lives for some alternate reality that will never happen. That's the whole point of the article.
Click to expand...

How do you get the whole "sucked into the sky" thing from just a billboard?  That was my point in the introductory reply to you, and one that IndianaMike rightfully raised.  These dweebs who latch onto a certain aspect of theology, much like the internet Calvinuts, to the point that they are obsessed with seeing evangelical boogeymen behind every corner are in a similar category to that of the dude who told pastors to leave their ipads in their cars and bring their Bibles to the pulpits. 

I do agree that we ought not be busy about Christ's imperatives in the here and now, but frankly, I have a hard time believing that is a reality that is preached (explicitly or implied) by but a very few crackpots, and believed by even fewer in the pews.


rsc2a said:
I could give you verses that say there is no God. That doesn't mean I'm accurately representing the verses.
Click to expand...

Right, and for you to make that charge against me for using Psalm 116:15 to prove that God sees death from a different perspective than those in a human perspective who fear it (though that is rightful fear for the lost, not the saved), well, shows how desperate or obtuse you can get.  It is not ripping it out of context to make that claim, and I could cite ample support from mainstream evangelicals and theologians/commentators for that proper view of death.
 
ALAYMAN said:
rsc2a said:
ALAYMAN said:
rsc2a said:
Yes. And Paul provided a very clear answer to "who shall deliver me from the body of this death". It's the same answer for "death is that thing which God has appointed to finally remove his children from sin".
Click to expand...

Why did Paul long to go be with the Lord?
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't he?
Click to expand...

Because according to your summation of things so far, this life we have in Christ now is equivalent to that which we will have after death.
Click to expand...

Have I said that?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]
rsc2a said:
And the fulfillment of that "not yet" is that God brings heaven to earth and restores all creation, not that we all get sucked into the sky to live "there" forever while He gleefully watches creation burn. And so we should be living our lives in a way that mirrors this reality, not living our lives for some alternate reality that will never happen. That's the whole point of the article.
Click to expand...

How do you get the whole "sucked into the sky" thing from just a billboard?  That was my point in the introductory reply to you, and one that IndianaMike rightfully raised.  These dweebs who latch onto a certain aspect of theology, much like the internet Calvinuts, to the point that they are obsessed with seeing evangelical boogeymen behind every corner are in a similar category to that of the dude who told pastors to leave their ipads in their cars and bring their Bibles to the pulpits.  [/quote]

I don't get it from just a billboard, just like the author does. It comes from a lifetime of being around evangelicals whose primary concern is "getting to heaven" as if heaven is the end game, or even the point. The Bible teaches that it's neither.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]I do agree that we ought not be busy about Christ's imperatives in the here and now, but frankly, I have a hard time believing that is a reality that is preached (explicitly or implied) by but a very few crackpots, and believed by even fewer in the pews.[/quote]

You know who cannot help another with a math problem they keep getting wrong? The individual who has the same understanding as the one working the problem.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]
rsc2a said:
I could give you verses that say there is no God. That doesn't mean I'm accurately representing the verses.
Click to expand...

Right, and for you to make that charge against me for using Psalm 116:15 to prove that God sees death from a different perspective than those in a human perspective who fear it (though that is rightful fear for the lost, not the saved), well, shows how desperate or obtuse you can get.  It is not ripping it out of context to make that claim, and I could cite ample support from mainstream evangelicals and theologians/commentators for that proper view of death.[/quote]

Since you've already resorted to name-calling barely two pages in, perhaps now you'll answer the question you completely ignored?

Jesus said "I am the Resurrection and the ________."
What is the opposite of _________?
That opposite is clearly an anti-Christ.
 
I should know better than to enter into a discussion with you, so rather than waste words, be frustrated by your uncharitable style of discussion, and go round in circles, I'll let Scripture speak for itself, and onlookers/readers to draw their own conclusions about Paul's struggle with the tension of having to live in a world (and body) full of sin....


Php 1:23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:


There is clearly a tension in Paul's understanding of what it means to remain in a fallen world, even though he is fully alive in Christ.
 
Third times a charm?

Jesus said "I am the Resurrection and the ________."
What is the opposite of _________?
That opposite is clearly an anti-Christ.
 
Paul explicitly said he desired to depart (a euphemism for "I want to die") in order to be with Christ.  He didn't say he MUST die, which all humans inevitably are compelled to do, but that he DESIRES it.  Why did he say that?  Didn't Paul realize that the kingdom was already here?  Was he some evangelical wingnut that had a fanciful and wrong-headed approach towards "heaven out and up there"?  No, it is clear, Paul loathed the corruption of sin, particularly his own, and he loved the Savior so much that he wanted the actualization of seeing Him face to face, so much so that he even wished to die in order to apprehend that reality.


What then made Paul wish to depart? I shall put it thus—the same reasons prompt the desires of every true believer; but they can have no power whatever with many here, who have no desire to depart, because for you to die would be not happiness and bliss, but an eternal weight of misery.
First, the apostle felt a desire to depart because he knew that in departing and being with Christ he should be clean rid of sin. Paul hated sin; every true believer does the same. There have been times with us brethren and sisters when we could say, "Oh, wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Sin has been our plague. Like righteous Lot in Sodom, the sins of others have vexed us; but, alas! we have had to bear a Sodom in our own hearts, which has vexed us still more. As to the trials and troubles of this world, they are nothing at all to the believer, compared with the annoyance of sin. Could he get rid of his unbelief, of his murmuring disposition, of his hasty temper—could he get rid of the various temptations of Satan, could he be clean, and pure, and perfect, he would be thoroughly satisfied. And this made the apostle long to depart. "Oh," saith he to himself, one baptism in the stream of death and I am perfect—but to pass the chill and dreary stream and I shall stand without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing, before the throne of God." The dog of hell shall follow us to the very edge of Jordan, but he cannot swim that stream. The arrows of temptation will be shot at us as long as we are here, but on the other side of Jordan these darts can never wound us more. Rejoice, then, believer, in the prospect of death, because in dying thou art once for all clean rid of sin. When I lay down this body I have laid down every infirmity, and every lust, and every temptation, and when clothed upon with that house which is from heaven, I have girt about my loins perfection and unsullied purity.---Spurgeon
Click to expand...
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0274.htm
 
Izdaari said:
Hooboy. As so often happens with you two, you're both right but talking past each other.  ::)
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Seriously, I am willing to be taught/corrected where I am in error.  If you would be so gracious, in what respect have I "talked past" him?  Where have I failed to acknowledge that the kingdom is here (yet imperfect and incomplete)? 

The sum of his charge is that I (and volumes of other evangelicals apparently) don't see the perspective of author of the linked article because I am consumed with the view that "going to heaven" is the consuming thought and end goal for the Christian, even to the exclusion of seeing the kingdom properly now.  In what way would you say that is accurate, and how did I speak past him in countering that allegation?
 
ALAYMAN said:
Izdaari said:
Hooboy. As so often happens with you two, you're both right but talking past each other.  ::)
Click to expand...

Seriously, I am willing to be taught/corrected where I am in error.  If you would be so gracious, in what respect have I "talked past" him?  Where have I failed to acknowledge that the kingdom is here (yet imperfect and incomplete)? 

The sum of his charge is that I (and volumes of other evangelicals apparently) don't see the perspective of author of the linked article because I am consumed with the view that "going to heaven" is the consuming thought and end goal for the Christian, even to the exclusion of seeing the kingdom properly now.  In what way would you say that is accurate, and how did I speak past him in countering that allegation?
Click to expand...

It isn't you more than him. You're both adamantly asserting "I'm right and you're wrong" when it's something where both of you are right at the same time, and just fighting about where to put the emphasis and how to express it. Maybe it takes somebody who isn't involved to notice that.
 
Izdaari said:
It isn't you more than him. You're both adamantly asserting "I'm right and you're wrong" when it's something where both of you are right at the same time, and just fighting about where to put the emphasis and how to express it. Maybe it takes somebody who isn't involved to notice that.
Click to expand...

It's probably a fault of mine, but I like to work in the particulars, which makes me a good candidate for a fundamentalist mindset. :D  Given that I need concrete concepts to understand where I have misunderstood him, could you state in what regard I have erred in figuring out what he is alleging?
 
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