On preaching and the hearer's responsibilities.

[rsc2a]

Alayman,Im just finishing this up now, I think this is something you should read:
http://www.amazon.com/Christless-Christianity-Alternative-Gospel-American/dp/0801072212

This is a good one I've read to help understand what vital role the gospel-centered sermon takes in the life of the church....

http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Centered-Preaching-Redeeming-Expository-Sermon/dp/0801027985

I've read it.  Also listened to his class lectures. Never heard him say our first duty is to follow a Mog.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The effectiveness of my preaching does not just depend on how well I preach, but also on how well you listen. Even Jesus, the greatest preacher ever, exhorted His audience, ?Take care how you listen? (Luke 8:18). Your first duty is to obey godly church leaders, and that primarily means obeying the Word of God that they preach.

Short but sweet.  I like it.

Context of the verse was Jesus telling the people how to contextualize His parables, not how they should listen to their 'mannagawd'.

A) Didn't Jesus tell his disciples to teach others about him?
B) Who said anything about a mannagawd?
C) I know you don't like Paul, but...

1 Thessalonians 2:13King James Version (KJV)

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Surely you aren't confusing 'debating one on one in a Synagogue' with the weekly prating of the modern church-king?

Act 17:1 ? Act 17:4
17? And having journeyed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was the synagogue of the Jews. And according to Paul's custom he went in among them, and on three sabbaths reasoned with them from the scriptures, opening and laying down that the Christ must have suffered and risen up from among the dead, and that this is the Christ, Jesus whom *I* announce to you. And some of them believed, and joined themselves to Paul and Silas, and of the Greeks who worshipped, a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Earnestly Contend

Are you gonna stick around for the conversation or abandon it?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Apparently you have some confusion.  "Mog" is not synonymous with "Scripture".

The way the modern church works today, it is.  Because the MOG is essentially the local Pope, and the Pope is infallible.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Alayman,Im just finishing this up now, I think this is something you should read:
http://www.amazon.com/Christless-Christianity-Alternative-Gospel-American/dp/0801072212

This is a good one I've read to help understand what vital role the gospel-centered sermon takes in the life of the church....

http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Centered-Preaching-Redeeming-Expository-Sermon/dp/0801027985

I've read it.  Also listened to his class lectures. Never heard him say our first duty is to follow a Mog.

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.  The OP was echoing similar sentiments.  It's a Biblical thought, try it sometime.

 

[ALAYMAN]

A) Didn't Jesus tell his disciples to teach others about him?

Yes.

B) Who said anything about a mannagawd?

The quote started in that direction and ended with Your first duty is to obey godly church leaders, and that primarily means obeying the Word of God that they preach.

Using the caveat of their teaching what Jesus did, I take no debate. What I have issues with is that the tenor of the quote promotes the following of men rather than the following of Christ.

C) I know you don't like Paul, but...

1 Thessalonians 2:13King James Version (KJV)

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Yet there were those who were more noble than the Thessalonians because they didn't take "Preacher" at face value:

Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

I would like Paul better if he aligned more with what Christ actually taught.

...you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.

The name of my adult SS class is/was the Noble Bereans.  I model my teaching upon the "trust but verify" principle.  Most folk who over-react to authoritarianism make assumptions based upon their past <burnt> experiences, but it need not be that way.  The word of God is authoritative, and so long as it is faithfully preached it ought to be obeyed.  That process occurs as the word is read privately and/or through the ordained proclamation of the ministers of God in the church.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Alayman,Im just finishing this up now, I think this is something you should read:
http://www.amazon.com/Christless-Christianity-Alternative-Gospel-American/dp/0801072212

This is a good one I've read to help understand what vital role the gospel-centered sermon takes in the life of the church....

http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Centered-Preaching-Redeeming-Expository-Sermon/dp/0801027985

I've read it.  Also listened to his class lectures. Never heard him say our first duty is to follow a Mog.

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.  The OP was echoing similar sentiments.  It's a Biblical thought, try it sometime.

paul was pointing to Christ! Not demanding they follow him!
Are you going to read Christless Christianity? I'll send you my copy,...

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Apparently you have some confusion.  "Mog" is not synonymous with "Scripture".

The way the modern church works today, it is.  Because the Pastor/MOG is essentially the local Pope, and the Pope is infallible.

I forgot to add, he is able to maintain his aura of infallibility by not permitting anyone to challenge or add to anything he says during his infallible sermons. 

 

[rsc2a]

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.  The OP was echoing similar sentiments.  It's a Biblical thought, try it sometime.

The OP said nothing of the sort. But pretend if it makes you feel better.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.  The OP was echoing similar sentiments.  It's a Biblical thought, try it sometime.

The OP said nothing of the sort. But pretend if it makes you feel better.

Someone in this thread lacks reading comprehension or just makes it up as he goes along (more likely). 

And I don't think it's you. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.  The OP was echoing similar sentiments.  It's a Biblical thought, try it sometime.

The OP said nothing of the sort. But pretend if it makes you feel better.

Someone in this thread lacks reading comprehension or just makes it up as he goes along (more likely). 

And I don't think it's you.

it's me right?? I knew it!! ;D

 

[ALAYMAN]

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.  The OP was echoing similar sentiments.  It's a Biblical thought, try it sometime.

The OP said nothing of the sort. But pretend if it makes you feel better.

The OP said....

The effectiveness of my preaching does not just depend on how well I preach, but also on how well you listen. Even Jesus, the greatest preacher ever, exhorted His audience, ?Take care how you listen? (Luke 8:18). Your first duty is to obey godly church leaders, and that primarily means obeying the Word of God that they preach.

Paul was saying that as long as his walk was in godliness that they should follow, and where it deviates they should stick with Christ. The OP was saying that the authoritative nature of preaching means that when Christ is presented <accurately> in the preaching of the gospel that the hearer is obligated to follow His Lordship through the proclaimed word.  Of course implicit in that proclamation is that where the word is inaccurately presented the believer is to measure these sayings agains the infallible word, much as Paul was saying follow the infallible Christ.  I'm sorry you can't make such obvious connections.

 

[rsc2a]

Alayman - your godly leader said you should send me $500.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Alayman - your godly leader said you should send me $500.

Well, that's not the first time you've lied on here.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Alayman,Im just finishing this up now, I think this is something you should read:
http://www.amazon.com/Christless-Christianity-Alternative-Gospel-American/dp/0801072212

Okay, I took a look at it, and this was one of the editorial reviews....

From Publishers Weekly

In another screed on what's wrong with American Christianity, theology professor Horton, of Westminster Seminary California, bemoans the slide of the American Christian church into what he, and others, call a moralistic, therapeutic deism. Drawing on studies, surveys and anecdotal evidence, Horton reaches the oft-repeated conclusion that American Christianity is self-centered rather than Christ-centered, Jesus is a life coach rather than a redeemer, and salvation is focused on therapeutic well-being. He rants against the purveyors of this watered-down Christianity--Robert Schuller, T.D. Jakes, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer--but saves his most savage attack for megachurch preacher Joel Osteen, whom Horton depicts as a snake-oil salesman teaching that God is a personal shopper ready to deliver happiness and prosperity if only individuals let God know their needs. Horton reveals his lack of theological depth when he argues that ancient Gnostics saw God as no different from humans. Yet Gnosticism's entire point is this difference. Horton regrettably offers no recommendation for the reformation of American Christianity beyond a simplistic call to let the church be defined by the Gospel rather than the laws of the market. (Nov.)

OUCHIE!

Going out on a limb, based on the things I read in the review, I probably agree nigh 100% with Horton about the me-centered nature of the seeker-sensitive model, and particularly the "moralistic therapeutic deism" stuff.  It was actually a turning point in my walk and preaching when I realized that many of the typical fundy sermons lacked the emphasis on the power to accomplish the things they were spittin' and hollerin' at folk to do.  Too much law, not enough gospel.

 

[rsc2a]

....It was actually a turning point in my walk and preaching when I realized that many of the typical fundy sermons lacked the emphasis on the power to accomplish the things they were spittin' and hollerin' at folk to do.  Too much law, not enough gospel.

"That's when I decided what we really needed were more sermons on alcohol,  rock music, and the need to follow men instead of Jesus. "

 

[ALAYMAN]

....It was actually a turning point in my walk and preaching when I realized that many of the typical fundy sermons lacked the emphasis on the power to accomplish the things they were spittin' and hollerin' at folk to do.  Too much law, not enough gospel.

"That's when I decided what we really needed were more sermons on alcohol,  rock music, and the need to follow men instead of Jesus. "

lol, you sure are on a lying roll today!

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.  45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

I've NEVER preached a single sermon in over 15 years on those first two, and possibly one sermon on "Follow me as I follow Christ".  But it's clear to all who watch your style that you'd rather make it up as you go along, lie, and use sophistry.  You prove that point daily.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Here's a link to the entire article cited in the OP
https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-56-your-duties-toward-church-leaders-hebrews-1317-19-22-25


And another theological fundy nimwit....

Because we are Christians who believe the inspired Word of God and because we believe that the Holy Spirit is the abiding third person of the Trinity, there should be more divine authority in our preaching ministries. A preacher of this gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ should have the authority of God upon him, so that he makes the people responsible to listen to him. When they will not listen to him, they are accountable to God for turning away from the divine Word. A preacher under God's unction should reign from his pulpit as a king from his throne. He should not reign by law or by regulation or by man's authority. He ought to reign by moral ascendancy. The divine authority is missing from many pulpits. We have "tabby cats" with their claws carefully trimmed in the seminary, so they can paw over the congregations and never scratch them at all. The Holy Spirit will sharpen the arrows of the man of God who preaches the whole counsel of God.

-- A.W. Tozer

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Alayman,Im just finishing this up now, I think this is something you should read:
http://www.amazon.com/Christless-Christianity-Alternative-Gospel-American/dp/0801072212

This is a good one I've read to help understand what vital role the gospel-centered sermon takes in the life of the church....

http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Centered-Preaching-Redeeming-Expository-Sermon/dp/0801027985

I've read it.  Also listened to his class lectures. Never heard him say our first duty is to follow a Mog.

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.  The OP was echoing similar sentiments.  It's a Biblical thought, try it sometime.

paul was pointing to Christ! Not demanding they follow him!
Are you going to read Christless Christianity? I'll send you my copy,...

"Follow me as I follow Christ". 

I'm pretty sure that means "do like me and follow Christ", not "follow me the way I follow Christ". 

If it means the latter, don't you have to follow Christ, first, for that to work?  I'm pretty sure the whitewashed Pharisees never followed Christ. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

Alayman,Im just finishing this up now, I think this is something you should read:
http://www.amazon.com/Christless-Christianity-Alternative-Gospel-American/dp/0801072212

Okay, I took a look at it, and this was one of the editorial reviews....

From Publishers Weekly

In another screed on what's wrong with American Christianity, theology professor Horton, of Westminster Seminary California, bemoans the slide of the American Christian church into what he, and others, call a moralistic, therapeutic deism. Drawing on studies, surveys and anecdotal evidence, Horton reaches the oft-repeated conclusion that American Christianity is self-centered rather than Christ-centered, Jesus is a life coach rather than a redeemer, and salvation is focused on therapeutic well-being. He rants against the purveyors of this watered-down Christianity--Robert Schuller, T.D. Jakes, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer--but saves his most savage attack for megachurch preacher Joel Osteen, whom Horton depicts as a snake-oil salesman teaching that God is a personal shopper ready to deliver happiness and prosperity if only individuals let God know their needs. Horton reveals his lack of theological depth when he argues that ancient Gnostics saw God as no different from humans. Yet Gnosticism's entire point is this difference. Horton regrettably offers no recommendation for the reformation of American Christianity beyond a simplistic call to let the church be defined by the Gospel rather than the laws of the market. (Nov.)

OUCHIE!

Going out on a limb, based on the things I read in the review, I probably agree nigh 100% with Horton about the me-centered nature of the seeker-sensitive model, and particularly the "moralistic therapeutic deism" stuff.  It was actually a turning point in my walk and preaching when I realized that many of the typical fundy sermons lacked the emphasis on the power to accomplish the things they were spittin' and hollerin' at folk to do.  Too much law, not enough gospel.

Ouchie? Because a secular site didn't like the book? Hahahahaha you're a hoot. I guess TRT was right all along, you can't make up your mind unless you read a commentary, or in this case, a website to tell you what it's about.
It's also about something you're familiar with; Palagianism and Gnosticism in evangelicalism.
I really don't expect you to read it, Horton doesn't preach for following the managawd or anti alcohol. Although I think he is against a Diet Pepsi addictions.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Ouchie? Because a secular site didn't like the book? Hahahahaha you're a hoot. I guess TRT was right all along, you can't make up your mind unless you read a commentary, or in this case, a website to tell you what it's about.

You really are a piece of work.  I haven't read the book, but I said I probably agree with Horton's perspective on the subject.  So even when somebody agrees with you you find a way to be a dolt.  Maybe you are quick to make judgments and comments on things prior to actually getting informed, but I like to actually read the original source before commenting from my own perspective/understanding.The "ouchie" comment was due to the claim that Horton offered criticisms but no suggested fixes.  I don't know if that's true or not but rather than attacking me you could have offered refutation to the criticism since you have already read it.

It's also about something you're familiar with; Palagianism <sic> and Gnosticism in evangelicalism.
I really don't expect you to read it, Horton doesn't preach for following the managawd or anti alcohol. Although I think he is against a Diet Pepsi addictions.

So you just wanted to take a couple of shots at me.  Got it.

Do you see a pattern in your interactions with me?  You turn every conversation into ad hominem, rather than talk about the substance of the topic.  You never made one effort to deal with the OP, and the fact that there is a distinguishable trend of anti-authority disrespect of traditional institutions.  The FFF has regularly displayed such contempt, particularly TRT, with authority figures.  I'd bet dollars to donuts that it is a lifelong pattern with him, but he is not alone in distancing himself from accountability to those traditional guideposts.