On preaching and the hearer's responsibilities.

[praise_yeshua]

A true leader does not have to beg or demand that people follow them as a right of their position.

I guess Jesus wasn't a true leader by your criteria.

When did Jesus beg or demand that others follow him?

Plus, as I said above, the same rules do not apply to Jesus.  He is the One and True Leader, and made it clear that no one is to usurp that position, ever. 

Even Paul, who had a swelled head at times, said, "12 What I mean is this: One of you says, ?I follow Paul?; another, ?I follow Apollos?; another, ?I follow Cephas?; still another, ?I follow Christ.?  13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?"

Add to the fact......

Its rather disingenuous to take something an Apostle or Jesus said to do and apply it "across the board" to anyone that wants to use it.

Just because Jesus said follow me.... and Paul said... follow me or my example...... Doesn't mean we should follow SOME OTHERS..... example. We should follow them just like they said.

Quoting Paul or Jesus and apply it.... to yourself..... Is rather senseless. They were unique and rather gifted. The same can't be said of many this day and time.

True, but it would still be wrong for Paul to say "follow me", unless he's saying, "Imitate how I follow Jesus".

Which is pretty much what he said....

I Corinthians 11:1 "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ."

Its also rather silly to call ourself after another. Which is pretty much what most everyone does. "Christian" isn't good enough for them. Even though Paul said to imitate me..... It wasn't about him. How dare someone calll themselves after anyone other than Christ.

 

[Stephen]

Short but sweet.  I like it.

I see you haven't lost the uncanny ability to start stupid threads.  Good to see you Lamer.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

It's not a contempt of authority. I have a contempt of the wrong kind of authority, mainly, the Moses model managawd role you see in most evangelical churches. At my assembly, 6 elders. Nobody claiming to follow after them. But giving guidance and leadership. I have  no problem listening to that.
So you see, I have an issue with the managawd, which isn't Scriptural.

In your assembly, you have 6 menagawds that you follow. And they are all equal....exactly the same in leadership and influence. Sorry, that sounds good, but there is one or more of them more equal than the others. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Our 'assembly' has 5 Pastors, so your assembly is overburdened with leadership....get rid of one! 

Well, seeing that you you don't have 'equal' authority in your 'assembly', can 2 of your Pastors over rule you? who has final say?. After discussing this with you in the past, you don't beleive in equal authority because you have a managawd complex. Your post proves as much.

I'd venture to say that we have the same amount of 'equality' among our Pastors as you do in your elders. No, two Pastors can't over rule me or any other Pastor. We have never, ever introduced something or decided something concerning our church body without a consensus among all of our Pastors. I don't believe in equal elders for the same reason I don't believe in Bigfoot! It only exists in theory. And my post proves nothing of the sort to anyone who reads it with intellectual honesty and not simply as a springboard to call me a 'managawd'. FTR, I would NEVER accuse you of such.....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The men Paul Referenced were all leaders in the church. Paul appointed leaders in the churches he established. Jesus chose the 12 to be leaders of the multitude that followed Him. Leadership in the church is a given. Some call them Pastors. Others call them Elders. I've heard some call themselves Bishop.

The point is that Paul was telling them it was wrong to "follow" these men.  You FOLLOW Jesus, and only Jesus, NOT men, no matter where these men are in the body.  So the statement, "follow me as I follow Christ" doesn't mean "follow me in the same way that I follow Christ".  It means "follow Christ the way I follow Christ". 

Also, if Paul is telling them to stop following men, that negates the whole concept of "obey your overseer".  But I already debunked that simply by pointing to how it is badly translated in the KJV.

No, Paul was telling them it was wrong to use them as reason for division in the church body at Corinth. And, with due deference, the KJV aside, I mostly read the ESV, the passage means what it says.

Paul, Jesus and the apostles in Acts and thruout the NT believed in local church leadership!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Short but sweet.  I like it.

I see you haven't lost the uncanny ability to start stupid threads.  Good to see you Lamer.

It's that whitewashed tomb's spiritual gift.  And he's all too willing to share it with us. 

Unfortunately, it's not a spiritual gift of God. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

It's not a contempt of authority. I have a contempt of the wrong kind of authority, mainly, the Moses model managawd role you see in most evangelical churches. At my assembly, 6 elders. Nobody claiming to follow after them. But giving guidance and leadership. I have  no problem listening to that.
So you see, I have an issue with the managawd, which isn't Scriptural.

You don't think that there has been an erosion of institutional/societal authority and trend towards distrusting religious folk?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Quoting Paul or Jesus and apply it.... to yourself..... Is rather senseless. They were unique and rather gifted. The same can't be said of many this day and time.

You don't believe that Christ gifts people in unique functions/gifts within the church to build up the body?

 

[ALAYMAN]

I see you haven't lost the uncanny ability to start stupid threads.  Good to see you Lamer.

It's stupid to say that God's word should be respected and heard when preached?

Good to see you as well Stephen.

 

[rsc2a]

Apparently if TB hasn't seen something,  it doesn't exist.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Apparently if TB hasn't seen something,  it doesn't exist.

I've never seen you.

 

[rsc2a]

Apparently if TB hasn't seen something,  it doesn't exist.

I've never seen you.

Why are you talking to yourself?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Apparently if TB hasn't seen something,  it doesn't exist.

I've never seen you.

Why are you talking to yourself?

He's the only one who takes him seriously. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

LAMER and TB and a few others should adopt this as their avatar.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

LAMER and TB and a few others should adopt this as their avatar.

Now, that is the kind of substantive argument to which your position lends itself!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Apparently if TB hasn't seen something,  it doesn't exist.

I've never seen you.

Why are you talking to yourself?

Just illustrating that you were wrong.....yet AGAIN! 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

LAMER and TB and a few others should adopt this as their avatar.

Now, that is the kind of substantive argument to which your position lends itself!

It's as substantive as these, which you two use continually:

LAMER:  He just has a problem with authority!!

YOU:  He wanted to be a pastor, so he's just jealous!!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Now, that is the kind of substantive argument to which your position lends itself!

It's as substantive as these, which you two use continually:

LAMER:  He just has a problem with authority!!

YOU:  He wanted to be a pastor, so he's just jealous!!

I have not meant that argument directed at you....however I do think that has a definite bearing on a couple of posters here who share your disdain for churches and pastors.

My argument does not come from authority in the church as much as one of spiritulal leadership in the church. As I posted before, Jesus appointed the 12 as leaders out of the greater mass of His disciples.
Paul appointed elders, pastors, bishops....leaders in the churches he started.
The book of Acts and the entire NT records that there were leaders...elders, pastors, bishops in the churches.

I do not equate leadership with authoritarian dictatorship, but leadership....by example and influence. There is NO doubt but that such leadership in the churches was Gods plan. Qualifications of leadership, instructions to leadership and an encouragement to follow said leadership is in the NT.

And, the Pastoral Epistles were, are and always shall be the Pastoral epistles!

 

[Recovering IFB]

TB, why do you think  I have a disdain for my brothers and sisters?

 

[prophet]

Now, that is the kind of substantive argument to which your position lends itself!

It's as substantive as these, which you two use continually:

LAMER:  He just has a problem with authority!!

YOU:  He wanted to be a pastor, so he's just jealous!!

I have not meant that argument directed at you....however I do think that has a definite bearing on a couple of posters here who share your disdain for churches and pastors.

My argument does not come from authority in the church as much as one of spiritulal leadership in the church. As I posted before, Jesus appointed the 12 as leaders out of the greater mass of His disciples.
Paul appointed elders, pastors, bishops....leaders in the churches he started.
The book of Acts and the entire NT records that there were leaders...elders, pastors, bishops in the churches.

I do not equate leadership with authoritarian dictatorship, but leadership....by example and influence. There is NO doubt but that such leadership in the churches was Gods plan. Qualifications of leadership, instructions to leadership and an encouragement to follow said leadership is in the NT.

And, the Pastoral Epistles were, are and always shall be the Pastoral epistles!

Because Paul called them that....  :

Earnestly Contend

 

[Mathew Ward]

There are those who assemble in a house church where there is a pastor.

There are those who assemble in a house church where no one and everyone oversees.

There are those who assemble in a traditional/contemporary church with a senior pastor and associate pastors who oversee.

There are those who assemble in a traditional/contemporary church with an equal elder board who oversee.

There are those who assemble in a traditional/contemporary church with a pastor and elder board who oversee.

Or maybe even some combination of them.

People on this thread have over reacted to the thought of authority because they have been abused or seen abuse by the JH or BG type of dictorial pastor (or some form) and I understand that.

But the truth of the matter is God uses and places people in our lives who are authorites (influence) to us. Spiritually speaking their job is to help us get connected to God. The less prideful these folks are the quicker they get us connected with Christ and not to depend on them. They are not God yet God has placed them in a position to help others in their relationship with him. Many times when we are young and immature we defer to their position on something. As we mature and are connected to Christ we form our own positions. Like the different assembly positions above.

My guess would be all of us have had people in our lives who have helped us get better connected with God in our relationship. These people are/were an authority in our lives.