Patriarchy, Abuse, and the Bible: Responding to Calvary Chapel Pastor

There was a recent big story about a Florida pastor being arrested. He lived in a 28,000 square foot house in a tony neighborhood near Tampa. https://www.fox13news.com/news/fbi-...y-church-owned-mansion-avila-neighborhood.amp

I really have no idea about what MacArthur owned in real property, so I won’t speculate about him. However, I immediately become suspicious of any pastor of any denomination when I find out that the richest man in the church is the guy behind the pulpit. I don’t care whether we’re talking little country churches or mega churches, IFB or Pentecostal.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
Not sure about the million dollar house part, but the luxury watch issue seems to be not quite accurate. No article was written, just a tweet comparing watches worn by the hipsters vs the old guar
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If it's innocuous, why mention it at all, and why mention it with respect to a social media account "exposing" clergymen with expensive watches as though he's involved in something shady? Maybe at face value the tweet seems "rather innocuous," but given her choice of wording and her other attacks on MacArthur, there's a different subtext there.
 
I was looking up on what R.C.Sproul taught on this subject and it seems that he at one time took a hard line against divorce on the grounds of abuse and even though he had changed his mind on the subject failed to address it publicly before his death in 2017. Here is an article on this subject.

cryingoutforjustice.blog

R.C. Sproul Changed His View on Abuse as Grounds for Divorce – but to our knowledge he never publicly announced that change

If R.C. Sproul had truly cared about victims of domestic abuse he would have announced his change of mind on divorce for abuse a long time ago. As most of you are aware by now, R.C. Sproul of Ligon…
cryingoutforjustice.blog cryingoutforjustice.blog
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
However, I immediately become suspicious of any pastor of any denomination when I find out that the richest man in the church is the guy behind the pulpit.
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I think it's also important to know why he's rich. Take, for example, Rick Warren, who has an estimated net worth of around $25 million: he was the wealthiest pastor in the US who wasn't part of the blab-it-and-grab-it crowd.

One hot take would be that he was fleecing his church. The reality is that in addition to being the pastor of a megs church, he's also the author of a book that sold 50 million copies: one of the biggest bestsellers in history. He gave back all the money Saddlback had ever paid him, specifically so no one could say the church made him rich. I don't have much use for Warren, but I can't really find fault with his ethics with respect to his money.

John MacArthur had nowhere near Warren's net worth, but he, too, was a bestselling author.

Hypothetically, suppose the pastor is the richest man in the church because he took his modest salary and made some very sound investments. Should we be suspicious of that?

As I said, it's more important to understand why the pastor is rich, and look more closely at his character than his portfolio. No one is poor because some celebrity is rich; that's just being resentful over nothing. Leave the class envy to the communists.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
I think “muckraker” is a pretty strong allegation if all she’s attempting to do is shed light on hidden darkness. I’m sure the brave Catholics who helped expose the atrocities of the Church were also condemned and derided for refusing to be silenced.
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I think she's making some strong allegations against someone she obviously knows nothing of. Pastor Paul is an honorable man who is faithful to the teaching of the Word. If her only reference is to a quote that is nothing more than a sound byte, which is all she is railing on without context, she's being the harsh one.
 
Ransom said:
If it's innocuous, why mention it at all, and why mention it with respect to a social media account "exposing" clergymen with expensive watches as though he's involved in something shady? Maybe at face value the tweet seems "rather innocuous," but given her choice of wording and her other attacks on MacArthur, there's a different subtext there.
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You might be correct about that. I can only take her statements at face value.
 
abcaines said:
I think she's making some strong allegations against someone she obviously knows nothing of. Pastor Paul is an honorable man who is faithful to the teaching of the Word. If her only reference is to a quote that is nothing more than a sound bite, which is all she is railing on without context, she's being the harsh one.
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I don’t know if she’s ever met him. Maybe he has an enemy feeding her information and she is taking statements out of context. I wish to hear the statement in full context. If that’s the case, then she needs to issue an apology and clarification statement.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
I don’t know if she’s ever met him. Maybe he has an enemy feeding her information and she is taking statements out of context. I wish to hear the statement in full context. If that’s the case, then she needs to issue an apology and clarification statement.
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Since he was filling in as a guest speaker, there may not be a recording. Here is the website that archives a dozen plus years of his teaching through every book, every chapter of the Bible. Check him out for yourself. I wouldn't expect you to agree with everything he teaches; I don't even do so, but get to know his style... It's highly consistent. It will help you understand the snippet in question.

Home | Life Bible Ministry

www.lifebibleministry.com www.lifebibleministry.com
 
Ransom said:
I think it's also important to know why he's rich. Take, for example, Rick Warren, who has an estimated net worth of around $25 million: he was the wealthiest pastor in the US who wasn't part of the blab-it-and-grab-it crowd.

One hot take would be that he was fleecing his church. The reality is that in addition to being the pastor of a megs church, he's also the author of a book that sold 50 million copies: one of the biggest bestsellers in history. He gave back all the money Saddlback had ever paid him, specifically so no one could say the church made him rich. I don't have much use for Warren, but I can't really find fault with his ethics with respect to his money.

John MacArthur had nowhere near Warren's net worth, but he, too, was a bestselling author.

Hypothetically, suppose the pastor is the richest man in the church because he took his modest salary and made some very sound investments. Should we be suspicious of that?

As I said, it's more important to understand why the pastor is rich, and look more closely at his character than his portfolio. No one is poor because some celebrity is rich; that's just being resentful over nothing. Leave the class envy to the communists.
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Supposedly Joel Osteen doesn’t take a church salary either. I don’t care for the guy, but I guess there’s that.

Regardless, I’m not really talking about the one-in-a-million preacher example, I’m referencing the average Joe pastor in the neighborhood. We might also have some cultural differences at play here. For example, the church my grandparents attended in North Carolina had a church parsonage that looked like an identical replica of the actual church building. Obviously built by the same builder and designed by the same architect. The buildings were on the same property, the only exception being that the parsonage was slightly lower in elevation than the church on the same hill. The parsonage was literally longer than the church! They even added square footage to make it longer, despite the fact that the pastor and his wife were virtually senior citizens and their children were grown and gone. Sorry, but I’ve seen it too many times in the South. I can’t speak for Canada.
 
I will personally attest to Pastor Paul's character. I know both him and Pastor Aaron Gamb, to whom he has passed the ministry of CC Ontario.

I met Pastor Aaron when he was sent to pastor a small congregation in Moscow, ID. Aaron would occasionally fill in for our pastor. I remember the few times he taught at our church, his teaching spoke to me deeply. I truly believe he has a Spiritual gift in regards to his teaching.

www.ccontario.com

Home - Calvary Chapel Ontario

www.ccontario.com www.ccontario.com

He eventually moved back to Ontario. Mrs. abcaines and I were in the Ontario area and we decided to visit. That is where we first met Pastor Paul. Listening to the teaching that morning, it was obvious that Paul was Aaron's close mentor which was no surprise to me. Several months later, Paul provided some sound equipment to our church and came up to personally help us with the multimedia software we now run on our sound table. I worked with Paul since I am our sound table guy. I found Paul and his wife Sue to be the genuine deal. This whole thing of Paul's character being called into question by this individual who doesn't know him has me rather miffed right now.

I will also ask that you all pray for Pastor Aaron and the congregation in Ontario. Aaron is filling some big shoes. We spoke and prayed with him just a few weeks before the transition of leadership there. Aaron was sharing that he was excited about the opportunity but at the same time, a bit overwhelmed by the pending responsibility.
 
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Having now seen the video in context, this seems kind of benign. Am I misreading the statement? It doesn’t seem like he’s calling for women to endure abuse or whatever the accusation was. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
Having now seen the video in context, this seems kind of benign. Am I misreading the statement? It doesn’t seem like he’s calling for women to endure abuse or whatever the accusation was. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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So, is this clip subsequent to the quote that has everyone up in arms?
 
abcaines said:
So, is this clip subsequent to the quote that has everyone up in arms?
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I think this is the clip she’s upset about. I’ve watched it a couple times. I’m just not seeing it. It doesn’t seem to me he’s saying women must just accept being abused, but again, maybe I’m missing something here.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
I think this is the clip she’s upset about. I’ve watched it a couple times. I’m just not seeing it. It doesn’t seem to me he’s saying women must just accept being abused, but again, maybe I’m missing something here.
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Other than his allusion to Ephesians 5:23, I see little reference to marriage. No mention of grounds of breaking off the marriage covenant...
 
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