Preaching and music in worship, a fine but important distinction....

[ALAYMAN]

Figured this might be worth breaking out of the CCM thread....

Normally, in what we call “worship,” we spend significant time—perhaps the whole time—addressing God, singing to him, praising him, extolling him, praying to him. Wonderful! But in preaching we are no longer addressing God; he is addressing us. Nothing is more important than this moment. And this is why the most important worship leader in your church is your pastor.

http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/preaching-vs-worship.aspx

Preach on, brother Purswell, preach on.

This doesn't in any way diminish any of the acts of corporate worship, but it does put them in the proper focus.

 

[rsc2a]

Normally , in what we call “worship,” we spend significant time—perhaps the whole time—addressing God, singing to him, praising him, extolling him, praying to him. Wonderful! But in preaching we are no longer addressing God; he is addressing us...

A totally meaningless distinction with no basis other than opinion , an opinion that is not based on a Christian worldview.

...And this is why the most important worship leader in your church is your pastor...

*gag*

 

[ALAYMAN]

Normally , in what we call “worship,” we spend significant time—perhaps the whole time—addressing God, singing to him, praising him, extolling him, praying to him. Wonderful! But in preaching we are no longer addressing God; he is addressing us...

A totally meaningless distinction with no basis other than opinion , an opinion that is not based on a Christian worldview.

Of course you probably think that speaking and hearing are one and the same events in the course of communication too.  There's a time for praise, adoration, prayer, etc, and there's a time to listen to God's word speak authoritatively to us.  Since you are so well versed in reformed doctrine I'm sure this is nothing new to you, but your hodgepodge of beliefs trumps longheld and established evangelical practice.

...And this is why the most important worship leader in your church is your pastor...

*gag*

That was pretty intelligible compared to most of your gibberish.  And of course it affirms that I'm on the right track.

 

[rsc2a]

Normally , in what we call “worship,” we spend significant time—perhaps the whole time—addressing God, singing to him, praising him, extolling him, praying to him. Wonderful! But in preaching we are no longer addressing God; he is addressing us...

A totally meaningless distinction with no basis other than opinion , an opinion that is not based on a Christian worldview.

Of course you probably think that speaking and hearing are one and the same events in the course of communication too.  There's a time for praise, adoration, prayer, etc, and there's a time to listen to God's word speak authoritatively to us.  Since you are so well versed in reformed doctrine I'm sure this is nothing new to you, but your hodgepodge of beliefs trumps longheld and established evangelical practice.

No. Hearing and speaking are not the same events. You singing a song of praise is you speaking to God. Those thoughts and emotions that well up inside you as you praise the Creator...that's God speaking to you. God speaking through a servant and His word to your heart and mind: God again. You intentively and diligently listening and studying so that you can live a more transformative life...that's you speaking to God. A simultaneous give and take between you and God.

See also: Is Jesus God or man? Does God choose or man choose? Is mankind a physical or spiritual creature? Is it us who shows love to others or God through us? Do we preach with words or actions?

Answer: "Yes"

But then, I don't really need a lecture on orthodox Christianity by someone who doesn't even acknowledge all the parts of our fundamental statements of faith.

...And this is why the most important worship leader in your church is your pastor...

*gag*

That was pretty intelligible compared to most of your gibberish.  And of course it affirms that I'm on the right track.

Let me summarize how Paul would write part of 1 Corinthians 12 today: Is the preacher more important than the musician? Is the prayer warrior less than the deacon? The preacher cannot say to the nursery worker, "I have no need of you." The nursery worker is fulfilling a task that enables the preacher's ministry. Do you want to know who has the most honor? The person who thankless cleans the toilets week in and week out, faithfully and without complaint. But we heap praises on the more visible positions because they need it more. However, everyone is vital to the work of the Church.

...but them I'm sure Schaap would have loved that "the most important worship leader in your church is your pastor."

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Should preaching be proportionately more important than prayer?

 

[Mathew Ward]

Should preaching be proportionately more important than prayer?

Acts 2:42  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Don't forget fellowship and eating...

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Should preaching be proportionately more important than prayer?

Acts 2:42  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Don't forget fellowship and eating...

Well, there is no way that could be worshipful. It didn't mention rib-ticklin', snot-shootin', stick-it-in-people's-faces preaching...

 

[ALAYMAN]

But then, I don't really need a lecture...

It's pretty evident from your previous statement that neither do you knew the difference between a lecture and a sermon, and probably something else from a hole in the ground.

 

[christundivided]

But then, I don't really need a lecture...

It's pretty evident from your previous statement that neither do you knew the difference between a lecture and a sermon, and probably something else from a hole in the ground.

I'm sure rsca loves a good lecture. He might just vomit if he heard a good sermon.

 

[subllibrm]

Should preaching be proportionately more important than prayer?

Acts 2:42  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Don't forget fellowship and eating...

Yep, eating is getting left out in the cold compared to everything else. Who will stop this madness?  ;D

 

[BandGuy]

Normally , in what we call “worship,” we spend significant time—perhaps the whole time—addressing God, singing to him, praising him, extolling him, praying to him. Wonderful! But in preaching we are no longer addressing God; he is addressing us...

A totally meaningless distinction with no basis other than opinion , an opinion that is not based on a Christian worldview.

Of course you probably think that speaking and hearing are one and the same events in the course of communication too.  There's a time for praise, adoration, prayer, etc, and there's a time to listen to God's word speak authoritatively to us.  Since you are so well versed in reformed doctrine I'm sure this is nothing new to you, but your hodgepodge of beliefs trumps longheld and established evangelical practice.

No. Hearing and speaking are not the same events. You singing a song of praise is you speaking to God. Those thoughts and emotions that well up inside you as you praise the Creator...that's God speaking to you.

Maybe.  If the song is in line with the teachings of Scripture, this is true.  It is still God speaking to you through Scripture or Scriptural teachings.  As a musician, I can well up all kinds of emotion through my knowledge of theory and orchestration.  That doesn't mean God is necessarily speaking to you.

Likewise, I believe the same is true about preaching as well.  It may be God speaking to you through His servant, or it could be a wolf speaking to you and giving you his own Godless agenda.  Whether in music or in preaching, have the heart of a Berean and search the Scripture to see of those things were true.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Normally , in what we call “worship,” we spend significant time—perhaps the whole time—addressing God, singing to him, praising him, extolling him, praying to him. Wonderful! But in preaching we are no longer addressing God; he is addressing us...

A totally meaningless distinction with no basis other than opinion , an opinion that is not based on a Christian worldview.

Of course you probably think that speaking and hearing are one and the same events in the course of communication too.  There's a time for praise, adoration, prayer, etc, and there's a time to listen to God's word speak authoritatively to us.  Since you are so well versed in reformed doctrine I'm sure this is nothing new to you, but your hodgepodge of beliefs trumps longheld and established evangelical practice.

No. Hearing and speaking are not the same events. You singing a song of praise is you speaking to God. Those thoughts and emotions that well up inside you as you praise the Creator...that's God speaking to you.

Maybe.  If the song is in line with the teachings of Scripture, this is true.  It is still God speaking to you through Scripture or Scriptural teachings.  As a musician, I can well up all kinds of emotion through my knowledge of theory and orchestration.  That doesn't mean God is necessarily speaking to you.

Likewise, I believe the same is true about preaching as well.  It may be God speaking to you through His servant, or it could be a wolf speaking to you and giving you his own Godless agenda.  Whether in music or in preaching, have the heart of a Berean and search the Scripture to see of those things were true.

I don't disagree but sometimes singing is us speaking (praying) to God. Much of it is "give" and not all "take" in worship.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]No. Hearing and speaking are not the same events. You singing a song of praise is you speaking to God. Those thoughts and emotions that well up inside you as you praise the Creator...that's God speaking to you. [/quote]

So my emotions are actually God speaking?  poppycock  Got any Scriptural support for that codswollop? 

There is Scriptural evidence that the properly preached word is indeed the voice of God speaking to men, but your assertion, not so much.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]No. Hearing and speaking are not the same events. You singing a song of praise is you speaking to God. Those thoughts and emotions that well up inside you as you praise the Creator...that's God speaking to you.

So my emotions are actually God speaking?  poppycock  Got any Scriptural support for that codswollop? 

There is Scriptural evidence that the properly preached word is indeed the voice of God speaking to men, but your assertion, not so much.
[/quote]

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.(Galatians 5:16-26 ESV)

See also the words of Jesus, Col 3, a chunk of Proverbs, the entire SoS, virtually all of the Psalms, Lamentations (the hint is in the name), select portions of Judges, the disciples traveling to Emmaus, Paul's letters to the church in Thessalonica, his letter to the Romans, the heavenly scenes in Revelation, Isaiah (especially in the end), Zephaniah (did you know God sings over us!?!?), Ezekiel, John's first letter, John's gospel, Luke's gospel, Jeremiah, Jonah, Job and a bunch of other passages.

Frankly, I would consider someone who denies that God speaks through emotions* and alleges that this is nowhere in Scripture to be Biblically-illiterate.



* Notice this is different from saying that all of our emotions are God speaking as the passage cited clearly shows.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]No. Hearing and speaking are not the same events. You singing a song of praise is you speaking to God. Those thoughts and emotions that well up inside you as you praise the Creator...that's God speaking to you.

So my emotions are actually God speaking?  poppycock  Got any Scriptural support for that codswollop? 

There is Scriptural evidence that the properly preached word is indeed the voice of God speaking to men, but your assertion, not so much.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.(Galatians 5:16-26 ESV)

See also the words of Jesus, Col 3, a chunk of Proverbs, the entire SoS, virtually all of the Psalms, Lamentations (the hint is in the name), select portions of Judges, the disciples traveling to Emmaus, Paul's letters to the church in Thessalonica, his letter to the Romans, the heavenly scenes in Revelation, Isaiah (especially in the end), Zephaniah (did you know God sings over us!?!?), Ezekiel, John's first letter, John's gospel, Luke's gospel, Jeremiah, Jonah, Job and a bunch of other passages.

Frankly, I would consider someone who denies that God speaks through emotions* and alleges that this is nowhere in Scripture to be Biblically-illiterate.



* Notice this is different from saying that all of our emotions are God speaking as the passage cited clearly shows.
[/quote]

Our emotions are our response to God's presence and speaking to us, but the emotions themselves ain't God speaking to me.  The emotions are an effect of the voice of God communing with us.  Our speaking to him (via prayer, songs, etc, is a separate action, which is what the OP was about, two way communication).

 

[Mathew Ward]

[quote author=rsc2a]No. Hearing and speaking are not the same events. You singing a song of praise is you speaking to God. Those thoughts and emotions that well up inside you as you praise the Creator...that's God speaking to you.

So my emotions are actually God speaking?  poppycock  Got any Scriptural support for that codswollop? 

There is Scriptural evidence that the properly preached word is indeed the voice of God speaking to men, but your assertion, not so much.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.(Galatians 5:16-26 ESV)

See also the words of Jesus, Col 3, a chunk of Proverbs, the entire SoS, virtually all of the Psalms, Lamentations (the hint is in the name), select portions of Judges, the disciples traveling to Emmaus, Paul's letters to the church in Thessalonica, his letter to the Romans, the heavenly scenes in Revelation, Isaiah (especially in the end), Zephaniah (did you know God sings over us!?!?), Ezekiel, John's first letter, John's gospel, Luke's gospel, Jeremiah, Jonah, Job and a bunch of other passages.

Frankly, I would consider someone who denies that God speaks through emotions* and alleges that this is nowhere in Scripture to be Biblically-illiterate.



* Notice this is different from saying that all of our emotions are God speaking as the passage cited clearly shows.

Our emotions are our response to God's presence and speaking to us, but the emotions themselves ain't God speaking to me.  The emotions are an effect of the voice of God communing with us.  Our speaking to him (via prayer, songs, etc, is a separate action, which is what the OP was about, two way communication).
[/quote]

Which doesn't happen with certain posters on the fff.

 

[subllibrm]

Song leaders who use their position to try to manufacture/manipulate emotion are abusing their position IMO. Same with preachers.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Song leaders who use their position to try to manufacture/manipulate emotion are abusing their position IMO. Same with preachers.

You're questioning or impugning the motives of song/worship leaders.  Shame on you.  Now YOU'VE crossed a line!

 

[subllibrm]

Song leaders who use their position to try to manufacture/manipulate emotion are abusing their position IMO. Same with preachers.

You're questioning or impugning the motives of song/worship leaders.  Shame on you.  Now YOU'VE crossed a line!

Well someone has to keep those unsaved pew warmers dutifully attending! 

 

[PFFlyer]

Song leaders who use their position to try to manufacture/manipulate emotion are abusing their position IMO. Same with preachers.

You're questioning or impugning the motives of song/worship leaders.  Shame on you.  Now YOU'VE crossed a line!

Well someone has to keep those unsaved pew warmers dutifully attending! 

Whichever side of the fence you're on...that there was funny!