Question for someone who is still IFB please...

[praise_yeshua]

Do you keep what you consider the moral law? Are you a doer of the law or a breaker of the law?

I've ask SM this repeatedly. He ignores the fact he is a breaker of the law. Your doing the exact same thing.

It's not about best effort or TRYING your best. You can't do it. You can't. You're a failure.

No, I do not keep all the moral law. Are you claiming that by "walking in the Spirit" you never sin?  Because if not why would you expect my view of  theology to lead to sinlessness when your views do not either?

Also please explain an apparent contradiction I have started to see in your posts.

You seem to claim both -

Wow. You've gone off the deep end. I must have hit a nerve. No. I never claimed that I ceased from sin. You haven't yourself. You don't keep the law. You have never keep the law and you never will.

You're ignoring the justification that comes from the righteousness of Christ. You have continually ignored it in favor of "keeping the moral law". Our salvation, though sure and steadfast, isn't complete. There will come a day when it is. That is what we talk about. We talk of the favor of another. We talk of the Grace of God. We talk of mercy pure and free. We do not endlessly talk of a law we can not keep and that was given to prove our guilt. We proclaim "guilty as charged"..... and we endless speak of Jesus.  Anyone in their right mind with Christ.... KNOWS THIS.

You're just ignoring it. By the way. Christ is our Sabbath. The only Sabbath. He alone is rest. You don't get rest from serving a day.

Again we see many Scriptures were David, Paul, Timothy point to learning, loving, memorizing, studying, meditating on the Scriptures is a key to resisting temptation.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Psalm 119:9-11

9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Study all you want. Please, do you best to cease from sin.... however, you're not that good. You're a failure. You will continually fail. By all means, pay attention to

Psa 37:23  The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Psa 37:24  Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do you keep what you consider the moral law? Are you a doer of the law or a breaker of the law?

I've ask SM this repeatedly. He ignores the fact he is a breaker of the law. Your doing the exact same thing.

Perhaps I've missed that but I don't recall you mentioning it. Well, here goes.

I do not keep the Sabbath, leave the "missed" corners of my garden for the homeless, wear mixed materials in my garments and will have shellfish on occasion. Why? This is the same Law that Jeremiah said was corrupted by the religious scribes. Hence, Jesus taught us the true Law of God so that is the one by which I strive to live. Do I adhere perfectly? No. Do I fail? Sure. That is what repentance and confession and forgiveness and grace are all about.

What am I "ignoring" (other than Paul's teaching on the matter)?

What is the punishment for break the law? Have you ever done anything, at any time, that should have deserved death under the law of God?

Don't talk of mercy, forgiveness or grace in the law. You should have died. The law you promote works death in you. You deserve death?

Why aren't you living in a sanctuary city? Do you even know the law? The religious scribes didn't pervert the laws that demanded your death.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

What is the punishment for break the law? Have you ever done anything, at any time, that should have deserved death under the law of God?

The punishment for "breaking the law" (i.e., sinning against God) means separation from God in eternity (besides reaping on earth what is sown.) How that looks whether eternal hell, temporary hell, annihilation, etc. is not really clear to me. Unborn babies "die" so simply by being human, we all "deserve death".

Don't talk of mercy, forgiveness or grace in the law. You should have died. The law you promote works death in you. You deserve death?

People died BEFORE the Law was given. As mentioned above, unborn children die without having committed a sin. Violation of what was found in the Mosaic Law is not what brings death. Mercy, forgiveness and grace is found in God, represented in Jesus Christ, same as should have been found in the interpolated Law. Jesus clearly taught the rich, young ruler that in keeping the Law, one could have eternal life. What the ruler missed was the spirit of love found in the Law: doing justly, loving mercy and walking humbly with God.

Why aren't you living in a sanctuary city? Do you even know the law? The religious scribes didn't pervert the laws that demanded your death.

I have no idea where you are going with your line of thinking. I admitted in my previous post that I do not keep the Law as is found in the OT. I try (but fail) to keep it as Jesus represented and taught, but Jesus Himself taught differently than what was on record. Yes, if the law was to be kept perfectly, the scribes Jeremiah mention DID pervert the Law of God. Hence, Jesus summed it up into loving God and our neighbors as ourselves.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What is the punishment for break the law? Have you ever done anything, at any time, that should have deserved death under the law of God?

The punishment for "breaking the law" (i.e., sinning against God) means separation from God in eternity (besides reaping on earth what is sown.) How that looks whether eternal hell, temporary hell, annihilation, etc. is not really clear to me. Unborn babies "die" so simply by being human, we all "deserve death".

I am talking about the demands of the law of God on earth. Did the law of God demand that someone should die for sins you, yourself, have committed?

People died BEFORE the Law was given. As mentioned above, unborn children die without having committed a sin. Violation of what was found in the Mosaic Law is not what brings death. Mercy, forgiveness and grace is found in God, represented in Jesus Christ, same as should have been found in the interpolated Law. Jesus clearly taught the rich, young ruler that in keeping the Law, one could have eternal life. What the ruler missed was the spirit of love found in the Law: doing justly, loving mercy and walking humbly with God.

So... you're trying to dismiss that the law of God you promote is the exact same law that calls for your death..... by pointing at death preexisting the law? Well. Isn't irony wonderful. Can you point to this kind of logic being used by Christ? I do remember someone that used this argument. It wasn't Christ. It was someone you refuse to listen to....

I have no idea where you are going with your line of thinking. I admitted in my previous post that I do not keep the Law as is found in the OT. I try (but fail) to keep it as Jesus represented and taught, but Jesus Himself taught differently than what was on record. Yes, if the law was to be kept perfectly, the scribes Jeremiah mention DID pervert the Law of God. Hence, Jesus summed it up into loving God and our neighbors as ourselves.

If the law of God was in place right at this moment..... then you would have to be living in a sanctuary city or you would be DEAD.

I don't see where the scribes perverted the law of God that demanded your death? Are you guilty of crimes from the law of God that demanded death...  or not? Are you saying you're a victim of what the scribes perverted?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I am talking about the demands of the law of God on earth. Did the law of God demand that someone should die for sins you, yourself, have committed?

Simple. Show me where Jesus mentioned that sacrifice was mandated for salvation. Show me where He forgave sins then sent the forgiven to the Temple to offer the sacrifice in an effort to complete the act of forgiveness. Show where He presented the lost with the necessity of His death, burial and resurrection for their salvation. Either Jesus taught the gospel of which we have record or He forgot to preserve it for us today, all the while telling mankind that only He is to be our "Rabbi"/teacher.

So... you're trying to dismiss that the law of God you promote is the exact same law that calls for your death..... by pointing at death preexisting the law? Well. Isn't irony wonderful. Can you point to this kind of logic being used by Christ? I do remember someone that used this argument. It wasn't Christ. It was someone you refuse to listen to....

Maybe it is just a bad Monday for me but I really don't understand what you are saying. I'll do my best to answer as I understand you.

My death was called for upon my first heartbeat, not on some religious "law" that preexisted before the Mosaic Law to which that special "someone" consistently referred. Remember, the Law came through Moses (John 1:17).

  If the law of God was in place right at this moment..... then you would have to be living in a sanctuary city or you would be DEAD.

So those that were born outside the sanctuary city at the time the Law was enacted died immediately? You are really confusing me here.

I don't see where the scribes perverted the law of God that demanded your death? Are you guilty of crimes from the law of God that demanded death...  or not? Are you saying you're a victim of what the scribes perverted?

Seems to me that here is one place where people were liable, and it did not include sacrifice:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

And here is a parable where a forgiven one loses his pardon:

23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Hmmm...two salvific passages that do not mention any failed adherence to any law, Mosaic or otherwise. Nothing about needing a sacrifice either. Busy day for me today so I don't have time to go through more so if you are so inclined to read the Master's recorded words instead of a wannabe Apostle, feel free to start in the Book of Matthew.

 

[rsc2a]

Actually Matthew's words are a wannabe apostle's words that Jesus supposedly said too.

Granted, I'm fine with both authors and their writings.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Maybe it is just a bad Monday for me but I really don't understand what you are saying. I'll do my best to answer as I understand you.

My death was called for upon my first heartbeat, not on some religious "law" that preexisted before the Mosaic Law to which that special "someone" consistently referred. Remember, the Law came through Moses (John 1:17).

Where is your death demanded. Please share. You are mixing a lot of different things together. I'm trying to understand myself. Maybe I'm the one having a bad Monday.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Where is your death demanded. Please share. You are mixing a lot of different things together. I'm trying to understand myself. Maybe I'm the one having a bad Monday.

My death is not demanded apart from my first heartbeat. Once my heart started beating, my death sentence started with the arrival of my life. Others would suggest conception, but whatevs. My point is, I was doomed to death while in the womb. I could have died before birth. I could have died as an infant. Etc. My death has nothing to do with my adherence/disobedience to any law other than the law of nature God has given to every human being and animal.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where is your death demanded. Please share. You are mixing a lot of different things together. I'm trying to understand myself. Maybe I'm the one having a bad Monday.

My death is not demanded apart from my first heartbeat. Once my heart started beating, my death sentence started with the arrival of my life. Others would suggest conception, but whatevs. My point is, I was doomed to death while in the womb. I could have died before birth. I could have died as an infant. Etc. My death has nothing to do with my adherence/disobedience to any law other than the law of nature God has given to every human being and animal.

1. Where do you get this from Scripture?
2. Why has death passed upon all men?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Where is your death demanded. Please share. You are mixing a lot of different things together. I'm trying to understand myself. Maybe I'm the one having a bad Monday.

My death is not demanded apart from my first heartbeat. Once my heart started beating, my death sentence started with the arrival of my life. Others would suggest conception, but whatevs. My point is, I was doomed to death while in the womb. I could have died before birth. I could have died as an infant. Etc. My death has nothing to do with my adherence/disobedience to any law other than the law of nature God has given to every human being and animal.

1. Where do you get this from Scripture?
2. Why has death passed upon all men?

1. Where do you get from Scripture that the earth revolves around the sun?
2. Because our bodies were not created/born to last forever on this earth. Same with animals, insects, sea creatures, etc.

 

[rsc2a]

2. Because our bodies were not created/born to last forever on this earth. Same with animals, insects, sea creatures, etc.

Umm...yes, they were.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where is your death demanded. Please share. You are mixing a lot of different things together. I'm trying to understand myself. Maybe I'm the one having a bad Monday.

My death is not demanded apart from my first heartbeat. Once my heart started beating, my death sentence started with the arrival of my life. Others would suggest conception, but whatevs. My point is, I was doomed to death while in the womb. I could have died before birth. I could have died as an infant. Etc. My death has nothing to do with my adherence/disobedience to any law other than the law of nature God has given to every human being and animal.

1. Where do you get this from Scripture?
2. Why has death passed upon all men?

1. Where do you get from Scripture that the earth revolves around the sun?
2. Because our bodies were not created/born to last forever on this earth. Same with animals, insects, sea creatures, etc.

1. The verses in the Bible that reference the sun are observational. Nothing more. I would interject, that modern science has determined that our galaxy is also rotating through space. In reality, the sun is rotating itself. There really isn't enough information to determine what the sun revolves around....but its not accurate to think that the sun is stationary. It isn't.
2. Contrary to what rsca says, I agree with you. However, there has to be something more..... that you can reference. Surely you can reference something from what you consider "holy".

 

[TheVoice]

Wow. You've gone off the deep end. I must have hit a nerve. No. I never claimed that I ceased from sin. You haven't yourself. You don't keep the law. You have never keep the law and you never will.

You're ignoring the justification that comes from the righteousness of Christ. You have continually ignored it in favor of "keeping the moral law". Our salvation, though sure and steadfast, isn't complete. There will come a day when it is. That is what we talk about. We talk of the favor of another. We talk of the Grace of God. We talk of mercy pure and free. We do not endlessly talk of a law we can not keep and that was given to prove our guilt. We proclaim "guilty as charged"..... and we endless speak of Jesus.  Anyone in their right mind with Christ.... KNOWS THIS.


Study all you want. Please, do you best to cease from sin.... however, you're not that good. You're a failure. You will continually fail. By all means, pay attention to

Psa 37:23  The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Psa 37:24  Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

Was simply pointing out that "sinless perfection" is not a good burden of proof to whether or not a viewpoint of Scripture is true or false. Every other post you say "you are not sinless" as if that were proof positive  my viewpoint is false, yet you do not submit yourself to the same burden of proof. 

Psalm 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

1 Timothy 4:1-6 Is a good example of how ceremonial laws of food have past.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wow. You've gone off the deep end. I must have hit a nerve. No. I never claimed that I ceased from sin. You haven't yourself. You don't keep the law. You have never keep the law and you never will.

You're ignoring the justification that comes from the righteousness of Christ. You have continually ignored it in favor of "keeping the moral law". Our salvation, though sure and steadfast, isn't complete. There will come a day when it is. That is what we talk about. We talk of the favor of another. We talk of the Grace of God. We talk of mercy pure and free. We do not endlessly talk of a law we can not keep and that was given to prove our guilt. We proclaim "guilty as charged"..... and we endless speak of Jesus.  Anyone in their right mind with Christ.... KNOWS THIS.


Study all you want. Please, do you best to cease from sin.... however, you're not that good. You're a failure. You will continually fail. By all means, pay attention to

Psa 37:23  The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Psa 37:24  Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

Was simply pointing out that "sinless perfection" is not a good burden of proof to whether or not a viewpoint of Scripture is true or false. Every other post you say "you are not sinless" as if that were proof positive  my viewpoint is false, yet you do not submit yourself to the same burden of proof. 

Psalm 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

1 Timothy 4:1-6 Is a good example of how ceremonial laws of food have past.

Okay. I give up. You win. Enjoy your victory. I'll leave with something very simple. Ponder upon it.

Only the doers of the law are justified. I've personally, never meet one. I'm pretty sure that is why Christ died. There wasn't any hope of anyone being a "doer of the law". IF there was someone around that could, the Christ died for no reason.

 

[TheVoice]

Okay. I give up. You win. Enjoy your victory. I'll leave with something very simple. Ponder upon it.

Only the doers of the law are justified. I've personally, never meet one. I'm pretty sure that is why Christ died. There wasn't any hope of anyone being a "doer of the law". IF there was someone around that could, the Christ died for no reason.

Yet you continue to pretend that I claimed the Law was the base for achieving perfection and salvation.
I claimed it was a base for understanding morality. Morality is about right versus wrong. Show me one Law that claims right is wrong or wrong is right.

As for pondering that was one of the things I mentioned of how personal standards crept into Fundamentalism - people went to their favorite preacher instead of the Bible for standards.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Okay. I give up. You win. Enjoy your victory. I'll leave with something very simple. Ponder upon it.

Only the doers of the law are justified. I've personally, never meet one. I'm pretty sure that is why Christ died. There wasn't any hope of anyone being a "doer of the law". IF there was someone around that could, the Christ died for no reason.

Yet you continue to pretend that I claimed the Law was the base for achieving perfection and salvation.
I claimed it was a base for understanding morality. Morality is about right versus wrong. Show me one Law that claims right is wrong or wrong is right.

As for pondering that was one of the things I mentioned of how personal standards crept into Fundamentalism - people went to their favorite preacher instead of the Bible for standards.

If the law isn't the bases for perfection.... then how can it be the bases for understanding morality?

Telling someone they can't murder another....doesn't change the heart of a man that is hell bent on killing someone. In fact, if that evil heart had never known that you could murder someone, then you just gave him the understand that he can. The heart generally thinks its so smart..... that laws don't apply to it.

 

[TheVoice]

If the law isn't the bases for perfection.... then how can it be the bases for understanding morality?

Telling someone they can't murder another....doesn't change the heart of a man that is hell bent on killing someone. In fact, if that evil heart had never known that you could murder someone, then you just gave him the understand that he can. The heart generally thinks its so smart..... that laws don't apply to it.

mo·ral·i·ty
/məˈralədē/
noun

principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

Nothing about perfection in the definition of morality. Just about distinguishing right from wrong. - Which is what the OP asked.