Questioning aspects of fundamentalism

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I am 28 years old and was raised in an IFB home most of my life.  Since moving out on my own, I have went through seasons of active involvement in the church and seasons of backsliding.  I have long had numerous objections to various IFB doctrines yet I always end up returning because that is where I feel most at home.  However, each time I go back, the more I am uneasy with certain issues in the denomination.  I'll start by saying there is a lot that I do think is right with the IFB movement.  I have been to numerous more liberal churches since leaving home and it seems like there is something missing.  I think that the reverence and depth that should be a part of worship has been lost in seeker-sensitive churches.  I think that replacing traditional Sunday school and Bible studies with "community groups" has done more to divide the body of Christ despite good intentions.  I think the general approach to how the IFB conducts its services is correct.  I also like the emphases the IFB places on winning souls.  That is something that many Christians in more liberal denominations say they do but they aren't proactive at it. 

However, there are certain doctrines/theologies promoted in IFB churches that I have long had trouble with and have a difficult time finding a scriptural basis for.  I am hoping to get some input and advice from others regarding these areas.

King James Bible
--------------------
Is the KJV really the only acceptable English translation?  I am aware of the difference between the Textus Receptus vs other versions of the text, but how is it determined that the Textus Receptus is the only inspired version of the text?  Most scholars believe the Alexandrian texts are in fact older.  The explanation that my preacher growing up gave was that Alexandrian texts came from Egypt and nothing good ever comes from Egypt, but for me that doesn't really settle it.

Doctrine of Separation
----------------------------
My home church tonight in fact preached on this exact doctrine.  While I fully believe Christians should follow 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1, I think the way in which the IFB goes about it is wrong.  First of all, the IFB takes mostly an outward, legalistic approach to that passage.  Everything is black and white and if it is something an unbeliever can enjoy, then a believer can't do it.  I do not believe that is what Paul is saying, and preaching it that way encourages people to develop Pharasitical tendencies, something Jesus warned very strongly against.  Personally, I think the passage goes hand in hand with Matthew 18:8-9, where Jesus warns the believer that "if thy right hand offend thee cut it off."  There are moral absolutes and areas where the believer must be separate from the world, but that is not ALL areas as what is taught in the IFB.  There are neutral activities that both the Christian and non-Christian can enjoy and have fellowship and those activities are in fact the arena for the Christian to be salt and light unto the world. 

Alcohol
--------
Throughout 2000 years of Christian history, complete alcohol prohibition is a relatively recent, American phenomenon.  There are some scriptures that encourage the use of wine (see Psalm 104:15, Proverbs 31:6-7, Genesis 14:18, Isaiah 55:1, Isaiah 25:6).  Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine.  I've found no evidence that positive mention of wine in the Bible is referring to non-alcoholic grape juice as what is commonly preached in the IFB world.  The explanation given in my church growing up was that any positive mention of wine is referring to grape juice and any negative is referring to the alcoholic beverage.  For me, that does not settle it and in my opinion it shouldn't for anybody who reads the Bible for what it actually says.  Drunkenness of course is sin as is gluttony (something many Baptists turn a blind eye to).  I do believe its Biblical to abstain if you are with a Christian brother or sister who is a former alcoholic or if they believe it is sin.  A Christian should never do anything that causes another believer to stumble.  Outside of that, I see no prohibition against moderate use of alcohol.

America
----------
This is something that doesn't sit well with me and it isn't exclusive to the IFB but it is a huge issue in American Christianity today.

Per Scripture, Israel is God's chosen nation.  No other nation is.  I don't believe America is any different in God's eyes than Britain, France, or any other nation that has risen and fallen since the time of Christ.  I believe God deals with people on an individual basis today and does not treat nations as individuals.  Material wealth is not a sign of the blessing of God.  Neither political party is the party of God.  Abortion and homosexuality are sins, but God will judge the sinners that commit them just like He will judge all sinners after death who die without Christ.  I believe the torture and massacre of the Native Americans in the early days of this country was every bit as evil as abortion.

In the time of Christ, the Jews were looking for a Messiah to take control of the Roman government and establish God's kingdom on the earth, but that isn't how Christ came and that led to the Jews rejecting their own Messiah.  Throughout Christendom that mindset has prevailed.  Christians have since believed that God has commanded them to take control over secular institutions like government and use them as evangelizing tools, yet there is no Biblical command for this.  Government Christianity ALWAYS ends up corrupt and un-Biblical.  Just look at the state of the Catholic church prior to the reformation.  Therefore, I cannot support the "Christian America" goal of many in the IFB and the greater religious right and believe separation of church and state is best for religious freedom.

America has been made into almost a religion of itself and in my opinion its idolatry.  I have a difficult time going to church on "flag worship Sunday" i.e. 4th of July Sunday.  Patriotism and true Christianity are not one in the same and should not be mixed.

There are some other, smaller objections I have to IFB doctrine but these are the big ones so its what I will focus on.  I greatly appreciate any responses.
 
I am in a similar position as you. Those things you mention are also some of my "pet peeves" with the IFB crowd.

This website is pretty strongly anti-IFB but if you use discernment you can see the scriptures posted which argue against the different areas you mentioned. Almost no KJV-only's here and a perusal of the Bible versions sub-forum lay out pretty good reasons. There was a pretty recent thread about the America-idolatry in IFB circles that sums up the arguments pretty well.  Standards are debated often the most recent one being music standards. I think the Alcohol one is probably split 50/50 on this forum - there are scriptures in support but it also has had such a personal bad effect on people's lives that many aren't willing to give any support to it at all. (which I respect, Romans 14 is pretty clear on that.)
 
Darkwing Duck said:
I am in a similar position as you. Those things you mention are also some of my "pet peeves" with the IFB crowd.

This website is pretty strongly anti-IFB but if you use discernment you can see the scriptures posted which argue against the different areas you mentioned. Almost no KJV-only's here and a perusal of the Bible versions sub-forum lay out pretty good reasons. There was a pretty recent thread about the America-idolatry in IFB circles that sums up the arguments pretty well.  Standards are debated often the most recent one being music standards. I think the Alcohol one is probably split 50/50 on this forum - there are scriptures in support but it also has had such a personal bad effect on people's lives that many aren't willing to give any support to it at all. (which I respect, Romans 14 is pretty clear on that.)
Click to expand...

I found and read the thread regarding America idolatry.  There is a lot of passion on both sides of the issue, especially among those who have fought for this country.  The issue in my eyes is not so much patriotism, politics, or trying to preserve traditional American values, all of which have their place.  It's how those things tie into Christianity and whether they have a place in God's house.  Its a question of what role the church plays in government, if any at all.  I believe the marriage of Christianity, patriotism, and political conservatism in America today is unscriptural and distracts from the true purpose of the church. 

As for music standards, I depart from most people my age in I actually prefer traditional hymns to CCM.  It is just that though - a preference.  I think its important that songs sung in church be theologically sound whether they are sung out of a hymnal and played by an organ or sung from a giant projector and played by a rock band.  There are theologically sound and unsound songs in both camps.
 
Sounds like both of you are using your brains. Good job.


ChuckBob
 
I'm IFB and don't agree on everything with my church but there is more I agree with than disagree with. 

I would say this is true with any denomination not just the IFB.
 
ChuckBob said:
Sounds like both of you are using your brains. Good job.


ChuckBob
Click to expand...

I thought the same thing... Ultimately, we all must make our own choice. Its just needs to be an informed choice.
 
If you question the IFB, you'll fit in well here.
The one area I might disagree with you is on your equating patriotism with idolatry.
There is nothing wrong with a love of one's country and a Christian should be politically active and informed.
Many moral issues are political issues in our country/culture.
To say that we should shy away from voicing a Biblical perspective for fear of 'mixing politics and religion' is a fallacy.
 
always telling ppl they're not saved if they dont agree with the way tithing is taught or if they backslide .

also preachers comparing the brethren to themselves and accusing them of not being saved if they're growth in grace isn't the same as theirs.

accusing church ppl of not being saved and then claiming they can never fully serve God unless they're 100% certain of their salvation yet some preachers are always causing ppl to doubt if they're saved or not.

claiming that you cant serve God unless you're right with God or soul win effectively if you're not fully right with God.  to me that says that the part of the Power of the Gospel depends on me being right with God instead of the quickening power of Gods Holy Word alone.
 
I am independent Baptist. I happened upon the first IFB church in the mid 1990s. It was different, very much Hyles-type. I had met quite a few IFB people when i went to Bill Rice Ranch in 1989, about, and for the next seven years, but had never set foot in an IFB church.

I honestly did not know the difference.. I knew that the people at BRR... they gave much power to the pastor, and it seemed they asked his "permission" for a lot of things.

When I finally visited and later joined an IFB church, I was surprised at how different it was from the three Independent Baptist churches in new orleans (not counting the one on the westbank). Just shocking.

Maybe if i get time next week i will sit down and write up a critique about IFB churches. Great people.. i dont want to hurt anyone... they are good folks.. some things I disagree with. thats all.
 
QuestioningIFB said:
King James Bible
--------------------
Is the KJV really the only acceptable English translation?  I am aware of the difference between the Textus Receptus vs other versions of the text, but how is it determined that the Textus Receptus is the only inspired version of the text?  Most scholars believe the Alexandrian texts are in fact older.  The explanation that my preacher growing up gave was that Alexandrian texts came from Egypt and nothing good ever comes from Egypt, but for me that doesn't really settle it.
Click to expand...
So, this is pretty anti-KJN Only forum, so I expect any suggestion I make to steer you in a KJVO position will get flamed, but I will answer anyway. I suggest you study it out for yourself. I am not sure what you have read, but a good simple overview might be RB Oulette's "A More Sure Word", available at Striving Together. I very much recognize that there are IFB preachers who say things like "nothing good ever came out of Egypt", but I never put much stock in statements like that. Jack Moorman, David Cloud, Phil Stringer are others that have written good material on the subject as well. Don't take my word for it, don't take other posters word for it, study it out for yourself.

Now, I am going to say this as well, in spite of the fact that I am a KJVO guy, I believe in Individual Souls Liberty, not every IFB church is KJVO. I am simply pointing it out.
Doctrine of Separation
----------------------------
My home church tonight in fact preached on this exact doctrine.  While I fully believe Christians should follow 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1, I think the way in which the IFB goes about it is wrong.  First of all, the IFB takes mostly an outward, legalistic approach to that passage.  Everything is black and white and if it is something an unbeliever can enjoy, then a believer can't do it.  I do not believe that is what Paul is saying, and preaching it that way encourages people to develop Pharasitical tendencies, something Jesus warned very strongly against.  Personally, I think the passage goes hand in hand with Matthew 18:8-9, where Jesus warns the believer that "if thy right hand offend thee cut it off."  There are moral absolutes and areas where the believer must be separate from the world, but that is not ALL areas as what is taught in the IFB.  There are neutral activities that both the Christian and non-Christian can enjoy and have fellowship and those activities are in fact the arena for the Christian to be salt and light unto the world. 
Click to expand...
In days gone by there was a lot of emphasis on specific areas of separation and they became irrelevant hobby horses. Theatres for instance. It made sense in a particular era, but with VOD, Netflix, Hulu on a TV, iPad, Tablet, Smatphone etc it no longer is relevant. Seek a church that guides itself by principle as opposed to commandment. The principle is right "I will set no wicked thing before my eye", but limiting that to one thing is to not keep up at all with the culture around us.
Alcohol
--------
Throughout 2000 years of Christian history, complete alcohol prohibition is a relatively recent, American phenomenon.  There are some scriptures that encourage the use of wine (see Psalm 104:15, Proverbs 31:6-7, Genesis 14:18, Isaiah 55:1, Isaiah 25:6).  Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine.  I've found no evidence that positive mention of wine in the Bible is referring to non-alcoholic grape juice as what is commonly preached in the IFB world.  The explanation given in my church growing up was that any positive mention of wine is referring to grape juice and any negative is referring to the alcoholic beverage.  For me, that does not settle it and in my opinion it shouldn't for anybody who reads the Bible for what it actually says.  Drunkenness of course is sin as is gluttony (something many Baptists turn a blind eye to).  I do believe its Biblical to abstain if you are with a Christian brother or sister who is a former alcoholic or if they believe it is sin.  A Christian should never do anything that causes another believer to stumble.  Outside of that, I see no prohibition against moderate use of alcohol.
Click to expand...
Study again. Get all the verses out, look for yourself, there is a lot of obfuscation going on in Christendom. Look at the historic use of the word, see it's generic as well as alcoholic use and then make a determination based on the totality of scripture.
America
----------
This is something that doesn't sit well with me and it isn't exclusive to the IFB but it is a huge issue in American Christianity today.
Click to expand...
Please understand that this is unique to your country only, and in many churches it goes beyond simple patriotism. I am a Canadian Patriot, but not in the manner I see many of my southern brethren using. They have made America a God, it almost becomes "Anglo Israelism" with America at the center as opposed to Great Britian. However, not every church in America is this way, many including IFB are seeing the problem, in particular an inward look that begins to exclude an outward look for the gospel (it's killing missions). Just balance the need for patriotism with letting it replace God and look for a church that has that balance. Ask those questions as you search, don't be afraid to sitwith pastor or pastor and deacons and ask all these questions and more. If they won't answer, you have your answer.

Praying for you.
 
ChuckBob said:
Sounds like both of you are using your brains. Good job.


ChuckBob
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. Been there, done that and got the TShirt. Keep thinking and praying. You are on a journey to find Christ and the joy of knowing Him. The stuff you mention is so oppressive. Get you an ESV and enjoy it! There isnt a KJV Jesus and everyone elses Jesus!
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
QuestioningIFB said:
King James Bible
--------------------
Is the KJV really the only acceptable English translation?  I am aware of the difference between the Textus Receptus vs other versions of the text, but how is it determined that the Textus Receptus is the only inspired version of the text?  Most scholars believe the Alexandrian texts are in fact older.  The explanation that my preacher growing up gave was that Alexandrian texts came from Egypt and nothing good ever comes from Egypt, but for me that doesn't really settle it.
Click to expand...
So, this is pretty anti-KJN Only forum, so I expect any suggestion I make to steer you in a KJVO position will get flamed, but I will answer anyway. I suggest you study it out for yourself. I am not sure what you have read, but a good simple overview might be RB Oulette's "A More Sure Word", available at Striving Together. I very much recognize that there are IFB preachers who say things like "nothing good ever came out of Egypt", but I never put much stock in statements like that. Jack Moorman, David Cloud, Phil Stringer are others that have written good material on the subject as well. Don't take my word for it, don't take other posters word for it, study it out for yourself.

WHY WOULD HE STUDY FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS AN HONORARY DOCTORS DEGREE???? STUDY AFTER PEOPLE WITH REAL EDUCATION!!!!!!!!

Now, I am going to say this as well, in spite of the fact that I am a KJVO guy, I believe in Individual Souls Liberty, not every IFB church is KJVO. I am simply pointing it out.
Doctrine of Separation
----------------------------
My home church tonight in fact preached on this exact doctrine.  While I fully believe Christians should follow 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1, I think the way in which the IFB goes about it is wrong.  First of all, the IFB takes mostly an outward, legalistic approach to that passage.  Everything is black and white and if it is something an unbeliever can enjoy, then a believer can't do it.  I do not believe that is what Paul is saying, and preaching it that way encourages people to develop Pharasitical tendencies, something Jesus warned very strongly against.  Personally, I think the passage goes hand in hand with Matthew 18:8-9, where Jesus warns the believer that "if thy right hand offend thee cut it off."  There are moral absolutes and areas where the believer must be separate from the world, but that is not ALL areas as what is taught in the IFB.  There are neutral activities that both the Christian and non-Christian can enjoy and have fellowship and those activities are in fact the arena for the Christian to be salt and light unto the world. 
Click to expand...
In days gone by there was a lot of emphasis on specific areas of separation and they became irrelevant hobby horses. Theatres for instance. It made sense in a particular era, but with VOD, Netflix, Hulu on a TV, iPad, Tablet, Smatphone etc it no longer is relevant. Seek a church that guides itself by principle as opposed to commandment. The principle is right "I will set no wicked thing before my eye", but limiting that to one thing is to not keep up at all with the culture around us.
Alcohol
--------
Throughout 2000 years of Christian history, complete alcohol prohibition is a relatively recent, American phenomenon.  There are some scriptures that encourage the use of wine (see Psalm 104:15, Proverbs 31:6-7, Genesis 14:18, Isaiah 55:1, Isaiah 25:6).  Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine.  I've found no evidence that positive mention of wine in the Bible is referring to non-alcoholic grape juice as what is commonly preached in the IFB world.  The explanation given in my church growing up was that any positive mention of wine is referring to grape juice and any negative is referring to the alcoholic beverage.  For me, that does not settle it and in my opinion it shouldn't for anybody who reads the Bible for what it actually says.  Drunkenness of course is sin as is gluttony (something many Baptists turn a blind eye to).  I do believe its Biblical to abstain if you are with a Christian brother or sister who is a former alcoholic or if they believe it is sin.  A Christian should never do anything that causes another believer to stumble.  Outside of that, I see no prohibition against moderate use of alcohol.
Click to expand...
Study again. Get all the verses out, look for yourself, there is a lot of obfuscation going on in Christendom. Look at the historic use of the word, see it's generic as well as alcoholic use and then make a determination based on the totality of scripture.
America
----------
This is something that doesn't sit well with me and it isn't exclusive to the IFB but it is a huge issue in American Christianity today.
Click to expand...
Please understand that this is unique to your country only, and in many churches it goes beyond simple patriotism. I am a Canadian Patriot, but not in the manner I see many of my southern brethren using. They have made America a God, it almost becomes "Anglo Israelism" with America at the center as opposed to Great Britian. However, not every church in America is this way, many including IFB are seeing the problem, in particular an inward look that begins to exclude an outward look for the gospel (it's killing missions). Just balance the need for patriotism with letting it replace God and look for a church that has that balance. Ask those questions as you search, don't be afraid to sitwith pastor or pastor and deacons and ask all these questions and more. If they won't answer, you have your answer.

Praying for you.
Click to expand...
 
QuestioningIFB said:
I am 28 years old and was raised in an IFB home most of my life.  Since moving out on my own, I have went through seasons of active involvement in the church and seasons of backsliding.  I have long had numerous objections to various IFB doctrines yet I always end up returning because that is where I feel most at home.  However, each time I go back, the more I am uneasy with certain issues in the denomination.  I'll start by saying there is a lot that I do think is right with the IFB movement.  I have been to numerous more liberal churches since leaving home and it seems like there is something missing.  I think that the reverence and depth that should be a part of worship has been lost in seeker-sensitive churches.  I think that replacing traditional Sunday school and Bible studies with "community groups" has done more to divide the body of Christ despite good intentions.  I think the general approach to how the IFB conducts its services is correct.  I also like the emphases the IFB places on winning souls.  That is something that many Christians in more liberal denominations say they do but they aren't proactive at it. 

However, there are certain doctrines/theologies promoted in IFB churches that I have long had trouble with and have a difficult time finding a scriptural basis for.  I am hoping to get some input and advice from others regarding these areas.

King James Bible
--------------------
Is the KJV really the only acceptable English translation?  I am aware of the difference between the Textus Receptus vs other versions of the text, but how is it determined that the Textus Receptus is the only inspired version of the text?  Most scholars believe the Alexandrian texts are in fact older.  The explanation that my preacher growing up gave was that Alexandrian texts came from Egypt and nothing good ever comes from Egypt, but for me that doesn't really settle it.

Doctrine of Separation
----------------------------
My home church tonight in fact preached on this exact doctrine.  While I fully believe Christians should follow 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1, I think the way in which the IFB goes about it is wrong.  First of all, the IFB takes mostly an outward, legalistic approach to that passage.  Everything is black and white and if it is something an unbeliever can enjoy, then a believer can't do it.  I do not believe that is what Paul is saying, and preaching it that way encourages people to develop Pharasitical tendencies, something Jesus warned very strongly against.  Personally, I think the passage goes hand in hand with Matthew 18:8-9, where Jesus warns the believer that "if thy right hand offend thee cut it off."  There are moral absolutes and areas where the believer must be separate from the world, but that is not ALL areas as what is taught in the IFB.  There are neutral activities that both the Christian and non-Christian can enjoy and have fellowship and those activities are in fact the arena for the Christian to be salt and light unto the world. 

Alcohol
--------
Throughout 2000 years of Christian history, complete alcohol prohibition is a relatively recent, American phenomenon.  There are some scriptures that encourage the use of wine (see Psalm 104:15, Proverbs 31:6-7, Genesis 14:18, Isaiah 55:1, Isaiah 25:6).  Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine.  I've found no evidence that positive mention of wine in the Bible is referring to non-alcoholic grape juice as what is commonly preached in the IFB world.  The explanation given in my church growing up was that any positive mention of wine is referring to grape juice and any negative is referring to the alcoholic beverage.  For me, that does not settle it and in my opinion it shouldn't for anybody who reads the Bible for what it actually says.  Drunkenness of course is sin as is gluttony (something many Baptists turn a blind eye to).  I do believe its Biblical to abstain if you are with a Christian brother or sister who is a former alcoholic or if they believe it is sin.  A Christian should never do anything that causes another believer to stumble.  Outside of that, I see no prohibition against moderate use of alcohol.

America
----------
This is something that doesn't sit well with me and it isn't exclusive to the IFB but it is a huge issue in American Christianity today.

Per Scripture, Israel is God's chosen nation.  No other nation is.  I don't believe America is any different in God's eyes than Britain, France, or any other nation that has risen and fallen since the time of Christ.  I believe God deals with people on an individual basis today and does not treat nations as individuals.  Material wealth is not a sign of the blessing of God.  Neither political party is the party of God.  Abortion and homosexuality are sins, but God will judge the sinners that commit them just like He will judge all sinners after death who die without Christ.  I believe the torture and massacre of the Native Americans in the early days of this country was every bit as evil as abortion.

In the time of Christ, the Jews were looking for a Messiah to take control of the Roman government and establish God's kingdom on the earth, but that isn't how Christ came and that led to the Jews rejecting their own Messiah.  Throughout Christendom that mindset has prevailed.  Christians have since believed that God has commanded them to take control over secular institutions like government and use them as evangelizing tools, yet there is no Biblical command for this.  Government Christianity ALWAYS ends up corrupt and un-Biblical.  Just look at the state of the Catholic church prior to the reformation.  Therefore, I cannot support the "Christian America" goal of many in the IFB and the greater religious right and believe separation of church and state is best for religious freedom.

America has been made into almost a religion of itself and in my opinion its idolatry.  I have a difficult time going to church on "flag worship Sunday" i.e. 4th of July Sunday.  Patriotism and true Christianity are not one in the same and should not be mixed.

There are some other, smaller objections I have to IFB doctrine but these are the big ones so its what I will focus on.  I greatly appreciate any responses.
Click to expand...
Jesus wasn't telling believer's to cut off their hand, or pluck out their eye, my friend.

He was setting the bar of obedience back out of reach of the Pharisees.  He was making the Law to be the stumblingblock and schoolmaster it was meant to be.

Mat 5:17
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:20
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If someone cut off their hand, would they avoid Hell?
 
Fundamentalism is more than IFB.

Of course a lot of the blame for fundamentalism becoming such a negative word can be laid at the feet of IFB wackos and perverts like Phelps, Hyles, Schaap, Gray (take your pick), Hutson and the ever popular Spamderson. Oh and their Stepford clones.

Just saying.
 
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