rap

[Mathew Ward]

We do know that Egypt represents sin and carnality.

If Egypt represents sin and carnality is that what our Lord came out of? Why would God command them to go into sin and carnality?

Matthew 2:13-15  And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

 

[prophet]

We do know that Egypt represents sin and carnality.

If Egypt represents sin and carnality is that what our Lord came out of? Why would God command them to go into sin and carnality?

Matthew 2:13-15  And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

One could say that "Out of Egypt" is symbolic, as was the Exodus, couldnt they?  That God was acting out a play, on a grand scheme? That Jesus was called out of Egypt to remind Israel of God's former goodness to them?  That He often fulfilled OT prophecy in a way that was intentionally vague, to confound the insincere?

Anishinaabe

 

[christundivided]

We do know that Egypt represents sin and carnality.

If Egypt represents sin and carnality is that what our Lord came out of? Why would God command them to go into sin and carnality?

Matthew 2:13-15  And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Egypt is both a symbol of the oppression on sin and God protection. Either way. Its rather odd to base a belief solely on "symbolism". 

 

[FSSL]

What put me "over-the-edge" when I was a good and loyal IFB was a music seminar put on by one of the most popular seminars out there (I am not interested in naming people). During the seminar, the leader of the ministry went through all of the evils of rap (year 2001). When he finished, I went through the music that comes out of their own ministry. Guess what I found... RAP! Other Christians noticed the rap music and it caused a mild controversy. Fortunately, for this guy, he was well-loved and it could be overlooked in his case.

This is my great problem with those who hold these kinds of conferences... and those involved on the panel. They have actually placed themselves as the authorities of what is good and bad music. They only give lip service to the "sufficiency of Scriptures." Only one of the panelists attempted to give a Scriptural rebuttal. When it comes down to it... and look through their websites... all you find is "aesthetics this... this man said that..." Article after article, guess what is missing? SCRIPTURE!

Because there is no Scripture on the issue, the antiCCMrs keep moving the boundaries.

• In the 70s it was all about "backmasking."
• In the 1980s, it was all about Steve Green's alliances and the backbeat.
• In the 1990s, it was "CCM has no content" In the 2000s, it has become "Beauty & aesthetics"...

Steve Green is now pretty much accepted by many IFBRs that once held him in disdain. Backmasking was exposed as fraudulent. The "no content" argument no longer works... The "beauty" argument will pass on after people realize that beauty can be found outside the halls of BJU.

I know some of these men. I have no ill will toward any of them. In fact, my overall theology is very close to many of them on this panel. That is what pains me. When it comes to their answers on this panel, I just shake my head at the vacuity of their answers. They do much better explaining the atonement than they do music. Why? Because they have Scripture about the atonement!

Can we not just allow for soul liberty on this issue? I do!

 

[Binaca Chugger]

What put me "over-the-edge" when I was a good and loyal IFB was a music seminar put on by one of the most popular seminars out there (I am not interested in naming people). During the seminar, the leader of the ministry went through all of the evils of rap (year 2001). When he finished, I went through the music that comes out of their own ministry. Guess what I found... RAP! Other Christians noticed the rap music and it caused a mild controversy. Fortunately, for this guy, he was well-loved and it could be overlooked in his case.

This is my great problem with those who hold these kinds of conferences... and those involved on the panel. They have actually placed themselves as the authorities of what is good and bad music. They only give lip service to the "sufficiency of Scriptures." Only one of the panelists attempted to give a Scriptural rebuttal. When it comes down to it... and look through their websites... all you find is "aesthetics this... this man said that..." Article after article, guess what is missing? SCRIPTURE!

Because there is no Scripture on the issue, the antiCCMrs keep moving the boundaries.

• In the 70s it was all about "backmasking."
• In the 1980s, it was all about Steve Green's alliances and the backbeat.
• In the 1990s, it was "CCM has no content" In the 2000s, it has become "Beauty & aesthetics"...

Steve Green is now pretty much accepted by many IFBRs that once held him in disdain. Backmasking was exposed as fraudulent. The "no content" argument no longer works... The "beauty" argument will pass on after people realize that beauty can be found outside the halls of BJU.

I know some of these men. I have no ill will toward any of them. In fact, my overall theology is very close to many of them on this panel. That is what pains me. When it comes to their answers on this panel, I just shake my head at the vacuity of their answers. They do much better explaining the atonement than they do music. Why? Because they have Scripture about the atonement!

Can we not just allow for soul liberty on this issue? I do!

Speaking against rap, then writing it?  I would have issue with that.  Reminds me of YC at FBCH - JO preached against rock music of any type, even oldies!  Everyone whooped and hollered AMEN!  When he finished, the skit crew came out and acted out while the oldies song was played "If you want to be happy for the rest of your life....."  :

I have heard messages in backmasking played, not by the preachers, but by the heavy metal station in my area - the radio show host recognized it and laughed about it, but that was in the 90's.

I still don't like most of Steve Green's music, but his version of How Great Thou Art might be my favorite rendition.  I don't know about how much content there is in CCM, because I won't listen to the genre.

To me, bad music is sensual or violent in nature and/or is commonly associate with sin and vice.  I personally do not think music that is sensual, violent or associated with sin and vice falls in line with worshiping the Lord in the beauty of holiness.

I also understand that some music might remind me of a rebellious time in my life, while it does not do the same for others.  My wife has a more liberal acceptance of music than I do because we come from different backgrounds and life experiences.  However, she does not wish to offend me, so she does not play her southern gospel groups when I am in the car.  Similarly, I should not play music that is "borderline" in corporate worship, because I do not want to offend people in the service.

 

[T-Bone]

Actually the proper term for the genre is "Christian Hip Hop"!  Booya!

 

[Mathew Ward]

We do know that Egypt represents sin and carnality.

If Egypt represents sin and carnality is that what our Lord came out of? Why would God command them to go into sin and carnality?

Matthew 2:13-15  And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

One could say that "Out of Egypt" is symbolic, as was the Exodus, couldnt they?  That God was acting out a play, on a grand scheme? That Jesus was called out of Egypt to remind Israel of God's former goodness to them?  That He often fulfilled OT prophecy in a way that was intentionally vague, to confound the insincere?

Anishinaabe

It is hard to say it could be symbolic when they literally went to Egypt and were literally called out from it.

 

[christundivided]

We do know that Egypt represents sin and carnality.

If Egypt represents sin and carnality is that what our Lord came out of? Why would God command them to go into sin and carnality?

Matthew 2:13-15  And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

One could say that "Out of Egypt" is symbolic, as was the Exodus, couldnt they?  That God was acting out a play, on a grand scheme? That Jesus was called out of Egypt to remind Israel of God's former goodness to them?  That He often fulfilled OT prophecy in a way that was intentionally vague, to confound the insincere?

Anishinaabe

It is hard to say it could be symbolic when they literally went to Egypt and were literally called out from it.

Even symbolism relies on the "literal". How can an action be "symbolic" if it doesn't "literally" happen?

 

[Mathew Ward]

We do know that Egypt represents sin and carnality.

If Egypt represents sin and carnality is that what our Lord came out of? Why would God command them to go into sin and carnality?

Matthew 2:13-15  And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

One could say that "Out of Egypt" is symbolic, as was the Exodus, couldnt they?  That God was acting out a play, on a grand scheme? That Jesus was called out of Egypt to remind Israel of God's former goodness to them?  That He often fulfilled OT prophecy in a way that was intentionally vague, to confound the insincere?

Anishinaabe

It is hard to say it could be symbolic when they literally went to Egypt and were literally called out from it.

Even symbolism relies on the "literal". How can an action be "symbolic" if it doesn't "literally" happen?

Then we can apply the symbolism of Egypt equating to sin to our Lord, right?

 

[christundivided]

We do know that Egypt represents sin and carnality.

If Egypt represents sin and carnality is that what our Lord came out of? Why would God command them to go into sin and carnality?

Matthew 2:13-15  And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

One could say that "Out of Egypt" is symbolic, as was the Exodus, couldnt they?  That God was acting out a play, on a grand scheme? That Jesus was called out of Egypt to remind Israel of God's former goodness to them?  That He often fulfilled OT prophecy in a way that was intentionally vague, to confound the insincere?

Anishinaabe

It is hard to say it could be symbolic when they literally went to Egypt and were literally called out from it.

Even symbolism relies on the "literal". How can an action be "symbolic" if it doesn't "literally" happen?

Then we can apply the symbolism of Egypt equating to sin to our Lord, right?

I said Egypt was symbolic of both the oppression of sin and God's protection. I know which one I would apply.

 

[Mathew Ward]

We do know that Egypt represents sin and carnality.

If Egypt represents sin and carnality is that what our Lord came out of? Why would God command them to go into sin and carnality?

Matthew 2:13-15  And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

One could say that "Out of Egypt" is symbolic, as was the Exodus, couldnt they?  That God was acting out a play, on a grand scheme? That Jesus was called out of Egypt to remind Israel of God's former goodness to them?  That He often fulfilled OT prophecy in a way that was intentionally vague, to confound the insincere?

Anishinaabe

It is hard to say it could be symbolic when they literally went to Egypt and were literally called out from it.

Even symbolism relies on the "literal". How can an action be "symbolic" if it doesn't "literally" happen?

Then we can apply the symbolism of Egypt equating to sin to our Lord, right?

I said Egypt was symbolic of both the oppression of sin and God's protection. I know which one I would apply.

Since you said both...I'm guessing you will choose to apply both...

 

[ALAYMAN]

Just reading through some old threads, and couldn't help but repost this tremendous analysis.  The theme of what you've written is the essence of how Paul said he would abstain from wine for the sake of the brethren.  Paul wanted the gospel to strengthen the believers, especially those who were weak in the faith, and he certainly didn't have to have it his way or the highway on non-essential matters.

We can disagree.

When you claim that Christian rap is somehow injurious, then give us specifics. You use an article talking about something entirely different. You make claims then cannot back them up with examples.

This is traditionalism. Like KJVOism, it takes a preference and elevates it to a false demand on other believers. It fails to understand how a STYLE of music, in a segment of our culture, is actually being used to promote the teachings of Scripture.

This issue is unnecessarily dividing the brethren. I could easily worship in a church that uses a KJV or NIV. I could easily worship in a church with hymns or rap. Why does there need to be a reaction over a preference?

I am thankful these Christian rap artists are able to work within their own culture to spread biblical truth.

i gave you specifics..... and i gave you examples..... i told you what kind of atmospheres certain types of ccm music reminds me of..... rap included.... and that includes artists like toby mac.... it has that effect on a lot of us who grew up in those cultures.... and it;s not an atmosphere conducive to worship....and for some of us it even brings up memories and mental images of times when we were immersed in those cultures ...... it changes the whole atmosphere of the church service into one of a night club or rap jam session...... and that is injurious.... if you can;t accept or understand those specifics and examples.. or disagree....  then simply say so... but don;t make the false accusation that i didn;t or couldn;t give such examples to you..... 

in my opinion you are the one making false demands on other believers by insisting they accept rap music in their own worship and taking offense with them if they don;t....... and it;s further insulting to insinuate that someone born or raised in a certain culture has no choice but to remain immersed in that culture and accept all aspects of it..... do you take an ebonics bible with you to witness in the inner city?.. ..or attempt to bust into jive talk when you witness to african american teenagers?........ i certainly hope not.....

a few years ago i got into a disagreement with another poster over the use of hula dance in worship..... apparently it was something they had just started doing in his church and he couldn;t understand why someone from hawaii...who grew up with hula..studied it... and even still dances hula would not accept hula dancing in church.... he even took it personally when i said i would never attend or stay in a church that brought hula into the worship service .... i love hula.. but i tried to explain what hula was born of.... and even gave descriptions of the basic elements of hula and told how and why they don;t belong in a christian worship service... ... he ended up ignoring everything i said just like you are doing now and made the same false claim that i had given him no real specifics.... 

i explained to you what the rap culture was born of.....  and the rap music style was specifically designed to perpetuate those things... even the inventors of it admit that.... ....  a few months ago a friend of yours here began attacking the church and listing everything he didn;t like about the way church is conducted in the modern age.. and tried to link everything... even the manner of dress and design of the buildings... to paganism......  i don;t remember you saying much in reply to him or making much of an effort to contradict him... much less getting upset about it.... .... but when i bring up objection to music being used in church which was clearly born of pagan roots and in the case of rap even born of violence, criminal activity and anti-judeo christian sentiment ..... and you take personal umbrage at it........ .....i didn;t object to you using those kinds of music in your church.... i only said i would never tolerate it or sit still and listen to it in mine......

but that;s the problem with people in the contemporary culture of the 21st century......they are not content to enjoy it themselves and leave it at that.... they have to shove it in everyone elses faces or pound their ears with it and make them to react to it..... that;s the whole reason for rap music in the first place... the boom box stereos in the rap cultures cars.... and the reasons for the hands in your face antics that go along with the songs and dancing when they perform....it;s all about making yourself heard and forcing people to notice you ......  and every time i have seen so called christian rap artists perform they were doing the same things and moving around in the same way....

i explained that in other posts in 2 different threads already....... and i also explained that many people find those kinds of thing offensive regardless of the message in the words ... and they consider it injurious to both themselves and to their children who become influenced by it.... but they don;t get half as offended as the person playing or performing that kind of music gets when told to turn it down.... or even as upset as you did when prophet said he sometimes closes his eyes to listen to special music being performed in church.........  when a genre of music or performance reaches that point .. whether it be rap... ccm.. bach.. mozart or whatever........ it is no longer about giving glory to God.... (if it ever was in the first place)... it;s all about glamorizing and drawing attention to the performer..... why else would they would be so offended at someone who refused to watch or listen to it?.... .....
.

 

[ALAYMAN]

What is the point of the bump?

There's been a recent (and repetitive, as the cyclical nature of this place lends itself to) discussion of CCM and Christian Rock.  The content of the thread I bumped is considerably more fertile than the ones in recent days.  I was enjoying reviewing that older thread, and thought some who are new to the forum would appreciate it.  Do I have to have a reason, or give a reason, to bump old threads?

 

[ALAYMAN]

You don't need a reason.

Okay, cool.  I generally like the way aleshanee thinks, and thought that many of her points in that thread were spot on regarding corporate worship.  Those who lead worship should consider the entirety of their congregation, and how their choices/styles will impact those newborn babes in their congregation.  I heard Alistair Begg admit as much recently when he cited himself as an example of somebody who can be too edgy in his references to pop culture (and 60s folk music particularly).  That was just concerning music that he referenced in sermons, not actually playing the Mamas and the Pappas for worship music. 

The continuum of freedom/liberty versus doctrinal purity/appropriateness has been a dividing line in Christianity for decades.  I, and ale, are clearly more traditional in our approach to worship.  I give other people leeway in many of these "culture wars" battles to worship as they see fit, but I think the coddling of culture is often just a crutch to justify worldliness.  It may just be my opinion, and you may call it subjective, but I stand in good company with contemporary theologians and preachers, as well as good men of the past as well.

I was just interested in knowing if there some lingering point that needed to be answered.

I'm sure that disagreement will continue long after even you and I have passed off the scene, so in that respect, the lingering point is still unanswered and remains to be seen.  I don't see the Evangelical world as having a dramatic effect on the population of America due to this shift towards accommodating the culture in the church.

 

[Bob H]

As far a music goes in the "worship service", I'd personally be for corporate singing only. I'd sack the choir & solo's if it were up to me. But that's just me.

 

[Bob H]

What is the point of the bump?

I didn't notice it. Al got one on me.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Not that it has anything to do with the topic because he is an R&B artist, but John Legend (and his French Bulldog) rode in my van yesterday before and after his concert!

My wife does "running" for the Performing Arts theatres in Charlotte and periodically she has to pick up artists from the airport or hotel rooms. Last night she chauferred Legend.

Doesn't really mean anything, just a little name-dropping.

 

[prophet]

As far a music goes in the "worship service", I'd personally be for corporate singing only. I'd sack the choir & solo's if it were up to me. But that's just me.

Ditto.

Anishinaabe

 

[prophet]

Not that it has anything to do with the topic because he is an R&B artist, but John Legend (and his French Bulldog) rode in my van yesterday before and after his concert!

My wife does "running" for the Performing Arts theatres in Charlotte and periodically she has to pick up artists from the airport or hotel rooms. Last night she chauferred Legend.

Doesn't really mean anything, just a little name-dropping.

Try dropping a name that anyone besides an Indian who listens to Country would care about.

Anishinaabe

 

[subllibrm]

What is the point of the bump?

He saw an unstirred pot.  ;D