Restored Fallen Pastors

Huk said:
This is similar to what I posted about a couple weeks ago in an exchange with Joe.
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Oh, it was here. That exchange was what I was reminded of by this one, but I couldn't find the thread. In the end I figured it had to be somewhere else. I was just thinking of the wrong tort.
 
Ransom said:
There is an old tort, no longer on the books (except, I think, in North Carolina) called "criminal conversation," which was exactly this: the right of a husband to sue a man who had committed adultery with his wife. Adultery isn't illegal, and arguably shouldn't be, but I see no reason why tort laws like this shouldn't still exist. Expand them, though, so they cut both ways. Wives are neither property nor guiltless.
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This is true...but suing for adultery (or even alienation of affection, which my aunt did back in the 90s when her husband was cheating on her) isn't something new. It's not practiced very often now, but, it's still around. My cousin, who lived in NC had her now ex-husband taken to court for that.
In the case of Johnny Hunt and this woman...the woman may well be guilty, but, given the practice of "pastors" these days, it wouldn't surprise me if she was assaulted. I agree that wives are far from guiltless.
 
illinoisguy said:
Hey, EKKK, check this out:


churchleaders.com

2 Churches Promoting Disgraced Pastor Johnny Hunt Face Prospect of Removal From SBC

The inquiry of the two churches centers on their affiliation with and promotion of disgraced pastor and former SBC president Johnny Hunt, who has been credibly accused of sexual abuse.
churchleaders.com churchleaders.com


"Two Southern Baptist churches are the subject of an inquiry by the denomination’s Credentials Committee into whether they should be removed from friendly cooperation with the Southern Baptist Convention. The inquiry of the two churches—Hiland Park Baptist Church in Panama City, Florida, and New Season Church in Hiram, Georgia—centers on their affiliation with and promotion of disgraced pastor and former SBC president Johnny Hunt, who has been credibly accused of sexual abuse. . . .

"To the understanding of most Southern Baptists, the credible allegations against Hunt constitute a permanent disqualification from pastoral leadership, in accordance with a resolution passed by the Convention in 2021. . . . In response to the bombshell announcement, SBC president Bart Barber said that he 'would permanently "defrock" Johnny Hunt' if he had the power to do so, declaring that the four pastors who cleared Hunt’s return to ministry 'do not speak for the Southern Baptist Convention.'

"While SBC polity dictates that local churches are autonomously governed and no denominational authority structures can compel their decisions, the SBC does have recourse to disfellowship a church that is deemed to no longer be in 'friendly cooperation' with the Convention. The Credentials Committee is set to launch an inquiry into both churches that hosted Hunt in their pulpits to make such a determination and recommend a course of action to the Executive Committee."

The allegations against Johnny Hunt are so serious, and so credible, that the SBC is considering the possibility of expelling the two churches that are allowing Hunt in their pulpit. Are these SBC leaders guilty of "repeating gossip and glorying in the fall of another minister," one of their own, a former SBC president?
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So? My point is, why hasn't Silly Woma...er, um, I mean...'Survivor' gone to law, and pressed charges?
 
AverageJoe said:
Seems more and more like you're being dismissive. Sad. Truly sad. Whether she's an SBC preacher's wife or just a regular member, it makes no difference.
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I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to, but regarding the preacher’s wife, I’m comparing the fact that she’s a grown adult. I know child victims often don’t come forward, and that’s an understandable response and a different situation entirely. Whether she was a victim or not, none of us know, but there’s a legal avenue for dealing with this. Unfortunately, in my line of work, I have dealt with a lot of people who have been falsely accused of acts they didn’t commit. This Johnny Hunt fellow sounds like he should never be behind a pulpit again, but tossing him in jail is a very different situation. Everyone deserves due process of law.
 
Ransom said:
Oh, it was here. That exchange was what I was reminded of by this one, but I couldn't find the thread. In the end I figured it had to be somewhere else. I was just thinking of the wrong tort.
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OK, I was slightly confused because I was beginning to wonder if there was some ancient case law precedent specifically relating to the rape of wife!
 
Ekklesian said:
So? My point is, why hasn't Silly Woma...er, um, I mean...'Survivor' gone to law, and pressed charges?
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Probably because of the same kind of attitude you're showing and HAVE SHOWN on these forums. What a loser!
 
Huk said:
I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to, but regarding the preacher’s wife, I’m comparing the fact that she’s a grown adult. I know child victims often don’t come forward, and that’s an understandable response and a different situation entirely. Whether she was a victim or not, none of us know, but there’s a legal avenue for dealing with this. Unfortunately, in my line of work, I have dealt with a lot of people who have been falsely accused of acts they didn’t commit. This Johnny Hunt fellow sounds like he should never be behind a pulpit again, but tossing him in jail is a very different situation. Everyone deserves due process of law.
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Adult women can be as easily misled as a child....in many cases. And you stated it yourself, whether she was truly a victim or not isn't and won't be truly known by any of us..so what is the use in supposing? It' a fruitless venture, and the Scriptures warn us of being involved in such discussions.
 
Ransom said:
I'm all for the restoration of fallen pastors.

Receive their repentance, extend forgiveness, and then let them sit quietly in the pews for the rest of their lives hearing the Gospel.

The Bible describes restoration as a return to fellowship, healing the rift caused by sin (Galatians 6:1). It doesn't entitle the pastor to a pulpit.
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Not sure I'm correct in what I'm saying but I wouldn't hold they should be sitting quietly in their pews the rest of their lives. They receive forgiveness and restoration it needs to be understood they're not to be just an observer but rather one likens all Christian soldiers doing everything to impart LIFE (God's eternal life) to all sinners in this world. That is a work of ministry for ALL of us. You probably might even agree with my statement.

I will say though....if that happened to me I wouldn't be looking to be a leader of a church as some main pastor. I'd consider what's best and causes the least controversy for the Kingdom. If the saints are always seeking to justify me I'd consider that counter productive to advancing the Kingdom. I'm more of a pragmatist. What works well to advance the Kingdom and what actually can be a hinderance. Wouldn't mean God couldn't use me though.

I think even the world can accept OK that minister fell but such doesn't mean he can't be a good Christian henceforth and be an encouragement to others even reading devotionals in a home and doing a little preaching just kind of in a low key way. Just have the sense to know it's counter productive to be in the lime light and understand it's really not that important to be in that type of position anyway.
 
Huk said:
I totally forgot about the Haggard media drama from years ago. I was just re-reading about him. I’m not excusing his behavior at all, but the fact that he claims to have been molested at 7 years old does help explain his behavior and issues later in life. The guy’s in his 60s now, so I’m sure it was swept under the rug and he probably never got any counseling for it.
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He identifies with his rapist.
All you need to know.
 
ALAYMAN said:
I listened to that yesterday and enjoyed it. I did wonder (though it was just a podcast and not intended for deep apologetic discourse) when he cited Romans 11:29a (For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance) I questioned the reasoning behind that rationale. If those gifts/callings are without repentance then why did Paul speak about disqualification and making faith shiprwreck? That aside, I think Ransom's answer (post #6) reflected most people's thinking on the subject, that restoration to fellowship is possible, but not necessarily restoration to the office. Though from a pragmatic stance I agree with this and probably would choose not to place myself under such leadership, on a theological scale of justification of my beliefs I can't bring myself to say that the Bible is clear that a particular sin is always and automatically permanently disqualifying.

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I have a 6- part series on the Gifts, Calling, and Offices of the NT Church.
Offices are not awarded by God, or: "without repentance".
We have one "calling" (singular) to all Saints.
The Gifts are only given through the Saints.
No one's gift/s qualifies them to Eldership, or Bishoprick.
So we have lists of quals, to use as a guide.
 
Huk said:
It does seem somewhat hypocritical that a pastor can (biblically) cheat on his wife and continue to pastor after asking forgiveness, but be unable to serve as pastor after a divorce, which might not even be related to a moral issue.

I do know as a teenager that my all-time favorite Sunday school teacher was divorced. All of us 9th/10th grade boys were all in shock when Mr. H told us. We’d known him our whole lives and had no clue. He even had an adult daughter we’d never heard of. We only knew of his current wife and two daughters. He went on to explain that his first marriage ended in divorce before he was even saved. Anyway, Mr. H was one of the godliest men I ever knew and, sadly, he passed away from cancer about seven or eight years ago in his mid-60s. I still miss him even after thirty years removed from sitting in his class on Sunday mornings.
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God commanded Death for Adultery.
No Adulterer can be trusted.
David was spared, but his family, and greater Israel, was lost, so....don't bring him up.
 
Another P.O.V. :

I was proof, to Hyles, anyway, that men can be restored.
But I was restored a decade before I was ordained.
I spent years being scrutinized, and rightly so.
30 years have past, since I humbled myself, showed up to the Deacons and Elders, and asked for restoration.
I have not wavered.
I am still amazed that God let me live.
But I came back, a free man.
And no bondage holds any allure to me.

Apparently, God intended for me to go to war with pedo pastors, since that has kept me busy for the last 2 decades, and we have successfully seen several removed.
I met with leadership to discuss Schaap, back in '07. Pointed out the lascivious doctrine, and told them that his personal life would follow.
I looked like a mad man and a fool at the time.
But I knew The Spirit leads me, and never doubted.
So I have a very Alt P.O.V. I know Restoration, and I know Reprobates.
I refer you to Jude:

Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

These are not sheep to be restored, but wolves to be cast out.
 
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