Schizophrenic

[Walt]

I've been reading Tom Brennan's book, and I thought it may be instructive to start a discussion about some of the issues that the book brings up.

As much as I wanted to dive into the "What's Wrong" section of the book (part 2), I forced myself to go through part 1.

I'll need to get the book to use as a reference for some issues, but there are two that spring to mind...

1) There is what seems to me to be an error in book 1 in which John the Baptist is called "John the Apostle".  I need to verify the section - wonder if anyone else has noted this?

2) I have been unhappy with the lack of naming names.  People who have their idols and heroes won't think that unfavorable traits could apply to their hero and make excuses for them.  I find it very helpful to have a face to go along with the errors.

 

[prophet]

I've been reading Tom Brennan's book, and I thought it may be instructive to start a discussion about some of the issues that the book brings up.

As much as I wanted to dive into the "What's Wrong" section of the book (part 2), I forced myself to go through part 1.

I'll need to get the book to use as a reference for some issues, but there are two that spring to mind...

1) There is what seems to me to be an error in book 1 in which John the Baptist is called "John the Apostle".  I need to verify the section - wonder if anyone else has noted this?

2) I have been unhappy with the lack of naming names.  People who have their idols and heroes won't think that unfavorable traits could apply to their hero and make excuses for them.  I find it very helpful to have a face to go along with the errors.

You start naming names, and the book goes nowhere.

You keep it about principles, and it will be much more readily accepted.

I'm speaking from experience here.

I was informed by a Prosecutor several weeks ago, that my patient continuance in teaching the Word eventually emboldened some witnesses to come forward with the truth.

Several of the witnesses told me that they were very angry at my teaching, at first, because it contradicted what they had heard.  But, they said that the overwhelming presence of Scripture in the presentation made it impossible to ignore.

I had to keep from naming names, at first.

Later on, though, I did, and was banned from preaching (at one church) to the very people who needed to see their idols torn down.

I'm posting this from the Prosecutor's office, as closing arguments are being heard.

Please pray that the truth triumphs.

earnestly contend

 

[Walt]

I've been reading Tom Brennan's book, and I thought it may be instructive to start a discussion about some of the issues that the book brings up.

As much as I wanted to dive into the "What's Wrong" section of the book (part 2), I forced myself to go through part 1.

I'll need to get the book to use as a reference for some issues, but there are two that spring to mind...

1) There is what seems to me to be an error in book 1 in which John the Baptist is called "John the Apostle".  I need to verify the section - wonder if anyone else has noted this?

2) I have been unhappy with the lack of naming names.  People who have their idols and heroes won't think that unfavorable traits could apply to their hero and make excuses for them.  I find it very helpful to have a face to go along with the errors.

You start naming names, and the book goes nowhere.

You keep it about principles, and it will be much more readily accepted.

I'm speaking from experience here.

I was informed by a Prosecutor several weeks ago, that my patient continuance in teaching the Word eventually emboldened some witnesses to come forward with the truth.

Several of the witnesses told me that they were very angry at my teaching, at first, because it contradicted what they had heard.  But, they said that the overwhelming presence of Scripture in the presentation made it impossible to ignore.

I had to keep from naming names, at first.

Later on, though, I did, and was banned from preaching (at one church) to the very people who needed to see their idols torn down.

I'm posting this from the Prosecutor's office, as closing arguments are being heard.

Please pray that the truth triumphs.

earnestly contend

Good points; I have two return points

1) Tom Brennan wasn't shy about naming names in his excellent message "39 Years an Independent Baptist and Grieved About It" (I understand that the target audience was different; the message was primarily preached to his congregation, whereas he is hoping that the book will have a much wider distribution).

The problem is that unless the Sword of the Lord or Revival Fires is named as overlooking sin, people will assume he was talking about some other publication, and that their favorite is entirely blameless.

Maybe it's just the way I learn - it's all well and good to talk general principles, but having a concrete example is so much more helpful.

2) If we are examining things by Scripture, and wanting to leave the result to God, then Paul and John named the names of those who were wrong.  Paul didn't get up and talk in generalities about some Jews who used to fellowship with Gentiles but then stopped when a delegation of Jews arrived from Jerusalem; he got up and named Peter in public.  If (and I say "if") the purpose for leaving out names is to be more accepted, isn't he falling prey to the very pragmatism he rails against in the book?

 

[Walt]

I've been reading Tom Brennan's book, and I thought it may be instructive to start a discussion about some of the issues that the book brings up.

As much as I wanted to dive into the "What's Wrong" section of the book (part 2), I forced myself to go through part 1.

I'll need to get the book to use as a reference for some issues, but there are two that spring to mind...

1) There is what seems to me to be an error in book 1 in which John the Baptist is called "John the Apostle".  I need to verify the section - wonder if anyone else has noted this?

2) I have been unhappy with the lack of naming names.  People who have their idols and heroes won't think that unfavorable traits could apply to their hero and make excuses for them.  I find it very helpful to have a face to go along with the errors.

That reminds me of another area: Pragmatism

It was a great section about the dangers of pragmatism; we should be obedient, and leave the results to God.

However, when in pragmatism going too far?  What about using incentives (candy, money, other things) to get children to ride a bus?  Can we go too far?  Is it completely wrong, or just OK in moderation?  Where does the line get drawn?

One lady at work says that she dislikes very much the music her church now performs, but, she says, "At least my kids are in church".  This is the kind of thing the book is against.  I admit that I first starting attending youth events because they were "fun" things.  As a pretty carnal young Christian, I don't think I would have attended a youth event that was going to go witnessing at the local mall, or going to a nursing home.  Should all youth events be "fun"?

I'm sure there are other areas in which pragmatism shows up, but I didn't get a clear idea from the book where, if anywhere, he thought the line should be drawn.

 

[prophet]

I've been reading Tom Brennan's book, and I thought it may be instructive to start a discussion about some of the issues that the book brings up.

As much as I wanted to dive into the "What's Wrong" section of the book (part 2), I forced myself to go through part 1.

I'll need to get the book to use as a reference for some issues, but there are two that spring to mind...

1) There is what seems to me to be an error in book 1 in which John the Baptist is called "John the Apostle".  I need to verify the section - wonder if anyone else has noted this?

2) I have been unhappy with the lack of naming names.  People who have their idols and heroes won't think that unfavorable traits could apply to their hero and make excuses for them.  I find it very helpful to have a face to go along with the errors.

You start naming names, and the book goes nowhere.

You keep it about principles, and it will be much more readily accepted.

I'm speaking from experience here.

I was informed by a Prosecutor several weeks ago, that my patient continuance in teaching the Word eventually emboldened some witnesses to come forward with the truth.

Several of the witnesses told me that they were very angry at my teaching, at first, because it contradicted what they had heard.  But, they said that the overwhelming presence of Scripture in the presentation made it impossible to ignore.

I had to keep from naming names, at first.

Later on, though, I did, and was banned from preaching (at one church) to the very people who needed to see their idols torn down.

I'm posting this from the Prosecutor's office, as closing arguments are being heard.

Please pray that the truth triumphs.

earnestly contend

Good points; I have two return points

1) Tom Brennan wasn't shy about naming names in his excellent message "39 Years an Independent Baptist and Grieved About It" (I understand that the target audience was different; the message was primarily preached to his congregation, whereas he is hoping that the book will have a much wider distribution).

The problem is that unless the Sword of the Lord or Revival Fires is named as overlooking sin, people will assume he was talking about some other publication, and that their favorite is entirely blameless.

Maybe it's just the way I learn - it's all well and good to talk general principles, but having a concrete example is so much more helpful.

2) If we are examining things by Scripture, and wanting to leave the result to God, then Paul and John named the names of those who were wrong.  Paul didn't get up and talk in generalities about some Jews who used to fellowship with Gentiles but then stopped when a delegation of Jews arrived from Jerusalem; he got up and named Peter in public.  If (and I say "if") the purpose for leaving out names is to be more accepted, isn't he falling prey to the very pragmatism he rails against in the book?

The purpose for leaving out names, may be to get the book into the hands of the very people who would be told by those named that it is slanderous.

Be wise as serpents, harmless as doves.

Did no one ever smuggle a Bible behind the Iron Curtain?

Tom will have to say whether this was his motivation or not, but I see wisdom in keeping it about principles.

earnestly contend

 

[Bruh]

If I remember correctly, he said in the book he didn't want to name names because he wanted the book to apply to all and different generations.

We/I know he was talking about Hyles and Schaap camp for the most part.


I'm sure he was definitely talking about Hyles camp that's who he runs with....the side of the IFB I'm from the churches for the most part don't even know who Hyles is and the pastors don't even mention these men behind their pulpits on purpose.

If a mature person hears Hyles type preaching that attends one of these churches that have nothing to do with Hyles type, would immediately know that there is something wrong with the preaching, IMO.

Hyles preaching and Hamblin preaching, does anyone know the difference?

 

[Walt]

If I remember correctly, he said in the book he didn't want to name names because he wanted the book to apply to all and different generations.

We/I know he was talking about Hyles and Schaap camp for the most part.


I'm sure he was definitely talking about Hyles camp that's who he runs with....the side of the IFB I'm from the churches for the most part don't even know who Hyles is and the pastors don't even mention these men behind their pulpits on purpose.

If a mature person hears Hyles type preaching that attends one of these churches that have nothing to do with Hyles type, would immediately know that there is something wrong with the preaching, IMO.

Hyles preaching and Hamblin preaching, does anyone know the difference?

1) Hamblin's pre-message prayers are carbon-copies of each other

2) All of Hamblin's messages have double-alliterated main points, and one point will have double-alliterated sub-points; for example:

- The Suffering of the Savior
- The Saving of the Sinners
- The Shouting of the Saints
-- The Hallelujahs to God
-- The Heaviness that is Gone
-- The Happiness of Goodness

(stuff like that)