Shiny Happy People - Duggar Family Secrets

I plan on watching with my wife since they were raised with many of the same rules as my wife was.

Jinger Duggar's book is a great read for anyone who grew up in that mess. Many people in that world either leave the faith or become Pharisees. Jinger escaped but kept her faith - she's married to a pastor and they serve together at Grace Community (pastored by MacArthur).
 
voicecrying said:
I plan on watching with my wife since they were raised with many of the same rules as my wife was.

Jinger Duggar's book is a great read for anyone who grew up in that mess. Many people in that world either leave the faith or become Pharisees. Jinger escaped but kept her faith - she's married to a pastor and they serve together at Grace Community (pastored by MacArthur).
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I heard Jinger tell her story on Alisa Childers' podcast and was quite impressed and glad she got out with her faith intact!

Now, here's the soundtrack for this thread:
 
What a can of worms...

I remember in the mid 80s being encouraged to attend a Bill Gothard seminar. I never did. I saw a set of his books. Just the sight of those books was intimidating. Fortunately, the urging to attend a seminar didn't last long and I never heard anymore about him till just now.

Jinger's video about her book (on her website) reminded me about Chuck Smith's book, Why Grace Changes Everything. I'm sure they're very different but the theme of coming out of legalism into a true relationship with Christ may be the common theme.

As for Josh, I'd like to know where he learned his sexual deviancy. To be only 14 or 15 and groping his younger sisters... I have a hard time believing someone that young developed that on their own. Someone exposed him to inappropriate material or behavior. Young kids who are so taught end up as sex offenders while their "mentors" get off scott free.

Then what really galls me is the way our society is going, Josh is serving time for what will someday be decriminalized... maybe by the time he gets out.
 
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abcaines said:
As for Josh, I'd like to know where he learned his sexual deviancy. To be only 14 or 15 and groping his younger sisters... I have a hard time believing someone that young developed that on their own. Someone exposed him to inappropriate material or behavior. Young kids who are so taught end up as sex offenders while their "mentors" get off scott free.
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Often people like Josh were victimized themselves, but not always. There are plenty of documented cases of people committing crimes of a sexual and/or violent nature who had a perfectly normal upbringing without incident. Some people are just evil or not “quite right in the head.”

If I had to take a guess about Josh, it would be a combination of strict legalism and a lack of normalcy in being around other kids his own age. In addition to his strict church and family, he was homeschooled and probably not given much of an outlet to express himself around girls in his age group. (Not that any of that explanation is an excuse, but maybe at least an understanding.)
 
This could be like the Toby Willis story. They were fundies to the core.
 
HukNduck said:
If I had to take a guess about Josh, it would be a combination of strict legalism and a lack of normalcy in being around other kids his own age. In addition to his strict church and family, he was homeschooled and probably not given much of an outlet to express himself around girls in his age group.
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That may definitely play into it. His "learning" may have come from "legitimate" sources. As the eldest of the children I can imagine that he was saddled with far more responsibilities in helping to care for his younger siblings than any adolescent boy should ever be. I speak from experience having lived with my sisters at that age. Being just a few years older than my nieces and nephews, I became a convenient babysitting service to them. I'm not saying this is the case but the potential is there.
 
abcaines said:
That may definitely play into it. His "learning" may have come from "legitimate" sources. As the eldest of the children I can imagine that he was saddled with far more responsibilities in helping to care for his younger siblings than any adolescent boy should ever be. I speak from experience having lived with my sisters at that age. Being just a few years older than my nieces and nephews, I became a convenient babysitting service to them. I'm not saying this is the case but the potential is there.
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As an addendum, I should say zero of what I said is an explanation (in my opinion) or excuse for the reason he’s in prison, but I can see it as an explanation for the allegations against against him for his actions as a teenager against his younger sisters.
 
It appears that there has been a lot of publicity given to "Shiny Happy People" in various publications, including the New York Times, having the effect of placing the IFB movement, and fundamentalism in general, in a bad light. It might be wise for IFBs to attempt to publicly distance themselves not only from Bill Gothard, but also from the authoritarian, dictatorial style of spiritual leadership (Chain of Command) that Gothard promotes.

David Cloud has been doing that, in such articles as "Seek Good Counsel." He published this in July 2017 but just published it again in the May 2023 issue of "O Timothy."

"To obtain counsel from a variety of biblically wise people protects the believer from becoming a slave to the will of one person. This is the mistake that was made in the 1970s by the Pentecostal Shepherding Movement. They taught that each believer should submit to a 'shepherd' who was someone appointed by the church. No decision was to be made without consulting this 'shepherd.' The result was widespread abuse. Pastors and teachers and disciplers are important helpers, but the believer is to have only one Master, which is Christ. . . .

"It is idolatry to put one’s trust in man rather than God (Jer. 17:5-8) or to submit to a man blindly as if he were God. God gives human authorities and teachers to help us, and they are very important. But ultimately our confidence must be in God and we must get wisdom directly from Him. The Bill Gothard 'chain of authority' approach is to obey the authority no matter what, but the Bible doesn’t support that. Jesus said that if we love even mother or father more than Him we are not worthy to be His disciples (Mat. 10:37). Obviously, then, there is a time when we must go against what our authority figures demand. And when is that? It is when they are leading us contrary to God’s will as supported by His Word. The apostles taught that we must obey God rather than man (Acts 5:29)."

Seek Good Counsel

Seek Good Counsel, report by David W. Cloud
www.wayoflife.org

[Note: this post is not intended as an endorsement of all teachings of David Cloud or of the veracity of all his statements. All I am saying is "Here is a person who has some influence, and here is what he has to say on this subject - take it or leave it."]
 
I was exposed to Gothard's teaching from my senior pastor. Back in 1988, I was his youth pastor.

He wanted me to go to seminars. I read a few sections of his books using animals as illustrations ("Character Sketches). His animal biology was wrong on nearly every article... so, funnily I rejected the Gothardism, initially, because of that.

I saw how this heresy permeated Menomonee Falls Baptist Church and Loves Park in Rockford, Illinois.
 
illinoisguy said:
It appears that there has been a lot of publicity given to "Shiny Happy People" in various publications, including the New York Times, having the effect of placing the IFB movement, and fundamentalism in general, in a bad light. It might be wise for IFBs to attempt to publicly distance themselves not only from Bill Gothard, but also from the authoritarian, dictatorial style of spiritual leadership (Chain of Command) that Gothard promotes.

David Cloud has been doing that, in such articles as "Seek Good Counsel." He published this in July 2017 but just published it again in the May 2023 issue of "O Timothy."

"To obtain counsel from a variety of biblically wise people protects the believer from becoming a slave to the will of one person. This is the mistake that was made in the 1970s by the Pentecostal Shepherding Movement. They taught that each believer should submit to a 'shepherd' who was someone appointed by the church. No decision was to be made without consulting this 'shepherd.' The result was widespread abuse. Pastors and teachers and disciplers are important helpers, but the believer is to have only one Master, which is Christ. . . .

"It is idolatry to put one’s trust in man rather than God (Jer. 17:5-8) or to submit to a man blindly as if he were God. God gives human authorities and teachers to help us, and they are very important. But ultimately our confidence must be in God and we must get wisdom directly from Him. The Bill Gothard 'chain of authority' approach is to obey the authority no matter what, but the Bible doesn’t support that. Jesus said that if we love even mother or father more than Him we are not worthy to be His disciples (Mat. 10:37). Obviously, then, there is a time when we must go against what our authority figures demand. And when is that? It is when they are leading us contrary to God’s will as supported by His Word. The apostles taught that we must obey God rather than man (Acts 5:29)."

Seek Good Counsel

Seek Good Counsel, report by David W. Cloud
www.wayoflife.org

[Note: this post is not intended as an endorsement of all teachings of David Cloud or of the veracity of all his statements. All I am saying is "Here is a person who has some influence, and here is what he has to say on this subject - take it or leave it."]
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Cloud was right in his approach to this issue (ie, follow me as I follow Christ 1 Cor 11:1).
 
Shake anyone's family tree, and a perv will fall out. Amnon was a son of David. Was Judaism the cause of his sin?
 
abcaines said:
What a can of worms...

I remember in the mid 80s being encouraged to attend a Bill Gothard seminar. I never did. I saw a set of his books. Just the sight of those books was intimidating. Fortunately, the urging to attend a seminar didn't last long and I never heard anymore about him till just now.

Jinger's video about her book (on her website) reminded me about Chuck Smith's book, Why Grace Changes Everything. I'm sure they're very different but the theme of coming out of legalism into a true relationship with Christ may be the common theme.

As for Josh, I'd like to know where he learned his sexual deviancy. To be only 14 or 15 and groping his younger sisters... I have a hard time believing someone that young developed that on their own. Someone exposed him to inappropriate material or behavior. Young kids who are so taught end up as sex offenders while their "mentors" get off scott free.

Then what really galls me is the way our society is going, Josh is serving time for what will someday be decriminalized... maybe by the time he gets out.
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Southside Baptist Church in Millington, TN was heavy into Bill Gothard and many were talking about attending the next Bill Gothard seminar. Aside from that, I know very little of Gothard. Another interesting note is that Michael Pearl ("Quiver Full" and "To Train up a Child") was former pastor of this Church! Aside from this, I had no further exposure to Gothard (or Pearl) until later when the internet came into existence. I was exposed to the legalism which was prevalent in pretty much every IFB Church I attended. I am also mindful of the fact that I came to faith in Christ BEFORE ever getting involved in this mess and was likely the reason I was able to get out myself with my faith intact!
Ekklesian said:
Shake anyone's family tree, and a perv will fall out. Amnon was a son of David. Was Judaism the cause of his sin?
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There is some truth here for certain! For some reason, it is much more prevalent in excessively legalistic settings. Most famous is the Roman Catholic Church which stigmatizes all sexual urges, elevates "Celibacy," and regards marriage and the family only as a means to make more priests and nuns!
 
Gothard...hmmm. I went to an IBLP seminar in about 1990 or so. They talked me into doing some things that I later saw as totally stupid. Threw away some trinkets my Dad has gotten in the service in 1952. Man, I got sucked in. But not much longer after, at home, I started reading more and saw how it was just totally legalism to the core.
 
Bill Gothard was no more a fundamentist than the man on the moon was


just saying......
 
Bob H said:
Bill Gothard was no more a fundamentist than the man on the moon was


just saying......
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He was a whack job. Total. I went to one meeting and was blown away by the legalism and the nodding heads. I thought, "Are these people really that dumb?" He said a few biblical things, but most of it was things he put into practice to make everyone big old Pharisees.
 
abcaines said:
What a can of worms...

I remember in the mid 80s being encouraged to attend a Bill Gothard seminar. I never did. I saw a set of his books. Just the sight of those books was intimidating. Fortunately, the urging to attend a seminar didn't last long and I never heard anymore about him till just now.

Jinger's video about her book (on her website) reminded me about Chuck Smith's book, Why Grace Changes Everything. I'm sure they're very different but the theme of coming out of legalism into a true relationship with Christ may be the common theme.

As for Josh, I'd like to know where he learned his sexual deviancy. To be only 14 or 15 and groping his younger sisters... I have a hard time believing someone that young developed that on their own. Someone exposed him to inappropriate material or behavior. Young kids who are so taught end up as sex offenders while their "mentors" get off scott free.

Then what really galls me is the way our society is going, Josh is serving time for what will someday be decriminalized... maybe by the time he gets out.
Click to expand...
Bill Gothard was a con man, predator, and a crook/fraudster.
 
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