Should Independent Fundamental Baptists be Considered Stupid?

About this debate, I believe...

  • Christundivided won

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • Green Beret won

    Votes: 11 55.0%
  • Neither... too hard to follow

    Votes: 5 25.0%
  • Christundivided had the best defense

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Green Beret had the best defense

    Votes: 2 10.0%

  • Total voters
    20

FSSL

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I think the premise "IFBs are stupid" was ill-conceived and certainly does not promote any kind of healthy discussion. Worse... it does not recognize the biblical teaching of belief and sanctification that surely follows.

With that said, I have some thoughts... Making a claim that a group of people are "stupid," certainly needs to have some parameters defined. I don't see CU defining those parameters effectively. Here is why. Let's break this down:

1) We know that there are abusive/stupid IFB churches. I know United Methodist, Catholic and Presbyterian churches that are also abusive/stupid. Are we to generalize all of these groups as "stupid?"

2) Does remaining in an abusive church mean that a person is "stupid," or is she/he blind in a particular area of thinking? It usually takes many years to recognize abuse and to get the mental courage and strength to finally admit that leaving that situation is necessary. This does not mean they are "stupid." It means that sanctification is progressive.

3) We have the luxury of 20/20 sanctified vision of the past. Sometimes, I feel rather stupid for buying into many ideas that I learned from former pastors and profs. Does that mean I was stupid? Or, does that mean I was just a young person learning and testing?

4) Not all IFB churches are stupid. In fact, going through an IFB college, some of my friends chose to go to a different seminary because, in their words, "the seminary I was going to attend was known to be difficult." Those kids were stupid.

Calling a particular group "stupid," fails to recognize the logical fallacy of "hasty generalization."

Sanctification is a progress. Not every believer will progress out of an abusive/stupid situation. However every believer is spiritually born into a wisdom that is LEAGUES above the "wisdom" found in this world.

Therefore, I submit that NO genuine believer is stupid.
 

Thomas Cassidy

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Green Beret said:
Ultimately, that's why posters like CU are not taken seriously. People are smart enough (yes, even IFBs) to see them for who they are and classify them as ineffectual, chronic whiners that want to ride their hobby horse and rage at the world passing them by. Most of the time, even they recognize the colossal waste of time they cause and move on.
It is not uncommon for spiritually immature people to come on forums such as these with the intent of "straightening all those people out." Unfortunately, as you said, he had a lot of accumulated baggage that made almost all of his postings irrelevant. He couldn't see past his own spiritual injuries well enough to see that many of us are not injured, and are healthy and happy disciples and servants of Christ.

My prayer for CU is that he find a spiritual counselor who can help him get over his disdain for other believers and help him to find his contentment in Christ and restore his love for the brethren.  :)
 

Green Beret

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FSSL said:
I think the premise "IFBs are stupid" was ill-conceived and certainly does not promote any kind of healthy discussion. Worse... it does not recognize the biblical teaching of belief and sanctification that surely follows.

With that said, I have some thoughts... Making a claim that a group of people are "stupid," certainly needs to have some parameters defined. I don't see CU defining those parameters effectively. Here is why. Let's break this down:

1) We know that there are abusive/stupid IFB churches. I know United Methodist, Catholic and Presbyterian churches that are also abusive/stupid. Are we to generalize all of these groups as "stupid?"

2) Does remaining in an abusive church mean that a person is "stupid," or is she/he blind in a particular area of thinking? It usually takes many years to recognize abuse and to get the mental courage and strength to finally admit that leaving that situation is necessary. This does not mean they are "stupid." It means that sanctification is progressive.

3) We have the luxury of 20/20 sanctified vision of the past. Sometimes, I feel rather stupid for buying into many ideas that I learned from former pastors and profs. Does that mean I was stupid? Or, does that mean I was just a young person learning and testing?

4) Not all IFB churches are stupid. In fact, going through an IFB college, some of my friends chose to go to a different seminary because, in their words, "the seminary I was going to attend was known to be difficult." Those kids were stupid.

Calling a particular group "stupid," fails to recognize the logical fallacy of "hasty generalization."

Sanctification is a progress. Not every believer will progress out of an abusive/stupid situation. However every believer is spiritually born into a wisdom that is LEAGUES above the "wisdom" found in this world.

Therefore, I submit that NO genuine believer is stupid.
^^^^Objective, concise and well said.
 

cubanito

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This was a simple debate to win for the premise.

Yes, IFBs should be considered stupid.

WE ARE ALL STUPID! And the stupidest is the one who calls his brother "Raca" (fool) while claiming to be a Christian

There, Green Beret would have lost the debate, and christundivided would have walked away with a Pyrrhic victory.
 

praise_yeshua

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cubanito said:
This was a simple debate to win for the premise.

Yes, IFBs should be considered stupid.

WE ARE ALL STUPID! And the stupidest is the one who calls his brother "Raca" (fool) while claiming to be a Christian

There, Green Beret would have lost the debate, and christundivided would have walked away with a Pyrrhic victory.
I don't readily call people "fools". In fact, I don't know the last time I used the word. I did make a mistake in taking part in this debate. I tried to get the subject changes but neither the admin or GB would change their minds.

I was wrong in my attitude toward IFBs. I do believe they are highly misinformed and willingly ignorant of the truth. However, those in Christ have their own Master to answer to.

I do still stand behind my statements at the beginning of the debate. IFBdom doesn't have Christ at the center of their theology. It shows. Its evident in so many different places. They are not alone. Most organized religion is part of the same.
 

cubanito

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OK, we are ALL misinformed and stupid when judged by God.

The wonderful thing is God decided to judge Christ in my stead so that, with a LOT of help from the Spirit, I might learn a few tiny things.

AFTER first acknowleging that, then we can have us a debate and behave like the bratty brothers and sisters that we are. Maybe even learn something from one another.

JR
 

praise_yeshua

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cubanito said:
OK, we are ALL misinformed and stupid when judged by God.

The wonderful thing is God decided to judge Christ in my stead so that, with a LOT of help from the Spirit, I might learn a few tiny things.

AFTER first acknowleging that, then we can have us a debate and behave like the bratty brothers and sisters that we are. Maybe even learn something from one another.

JR
Are learning from IFBs or the Spirit? Don't tell me they are one in the same thing!
 

cubanito

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All Truth comes from God. If you learn how to count on your fingers from a Hindu, you have learned a Truth that comes from the God of the Bible. So in one sense, anything True that we learn we do so from God. I learned how to properly count on my fingers in my late 30's, but that's another story.

Now, a human who is truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit can offer us much, much more important Truth. While the human is not the same as God, which would be a Hindu error, it can be said that any Truth I learn from a human I also learn from God, for the human is the intermediary chosen by God for that purpose.

So no, I am not advancing a Hindu error that "we are God" or something like that. However, anything I learn from anything, even if I learn something by studying a rock, I ultimately learn from God through some created agent.
JR
 

praise_yeshua

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cubanito said:
All Truth comes from God. If you learn how to count on your fingers from a Hindu, you have learned a Truth that comes from the God of the Bible. So in one sense, anything True that we learn we do so from God. I learned how to properly count on my fingers in my late 30's, but that's another story.

Now, a human who is truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit can offer us much, much more important Truth. While the human is not the same as God, which would be a Hindu error, it can be said that any Truth I learn from a human I also learn from God, for the human is the intermediary chosen by God for that purpose.

So no, I am not advancing a Hindu error that "we are God" or something like that. However, anything I learn from anything, even if I learn something by studying a rock, I ultimately learn from God through some created agent.
JR
That was interesting. However, you starte talking abiut Truth and then ended up saying that everything you learn is ultimately from God.

I have to disagree. No lie is of the Truth. God can not lie. So when you learn a lie it's not coming from God. In fact, Jesus said that the father of lies is Satan.

I know you're trying to be intellectual.... but maybe you should stop. Its common to over analysis something to the point you miss the obvious. Happens to me all the time.
 

cubanito

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I'm trying to be intellectual... that's interesting. We are not all the same, and in no way being designed by God in a certain way makes me "better" than someone else (the eye says to the toe analogy). Also, intelligence is highly overated. Because I am in the top 0.001% of the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Quotient as normalized to the USA population does NOT make me any better than the mentally retarded teenager who led me to Christ.

But for me to try and NOT be intellectual would be like trying not to breathe.

If that seems arrogant, well, then it is arrogant. It is also true.

OK, I guess this next one is going to bummer you:

Lies do not exist. A lie is the abscense of Truth in the same way that cold is the absence of heat. One can learn to lie, but one can not learn a lie.

God is Truth. The opposite of God is nothing. A lie is a statement of something which is not Truth. As such, it is an empty statement. Whenever someone says something which is not True, they are speaking emptyness. You can not learn a lie because whatever you learn which is not True is nothingness.

But none of that matters.

What matters is that we recognize we are dust before the eyes of God and as such, we are ALL stupid before Him. If there is any worthwhile thoughts from any of us, it is because the Holy Spirit allow it, either through the common Grace of a Hindu or the regenerative power of the indwelling.

Statistically, you need to go through more than 10,000 people before you find someone more intelligent than.

If I say I am stupid, that is because I have learned a little better how little I know than the average person. As I said, despite my college minor in mathematics (straight A's of course) it was not until my late 30s that I learned how to correctly count on my fingers. It was not until 52 yo that I finally learned how much was 1+1 although.... somebody is going to give me a book on theoretical math that supposedly I'm not quite there yet.

JR feeling very, very stupid when I consider my Creator. But He Loves me anyway, and sees only Christ when He looks at me.
 

praise_yeshua

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cubanito said:
I'm trying to be intellectual... that's interesting. We are not all the same, and in no way being designed by God in a certain way makes me "better" than someone else (the eye says to the toe analogy). Also, intelligence is highly overated. Because I am in the top 0.001% of the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Quotient as normalized to the USA population does NOT make me any better than the mentally retarded teenager who led me to Christ.

But for me to try and NOT be intellectual would be like trying not to breathe.

If that seems arrogant, well, then it is arrogant. It is also true.

OK, I guess this next one is going to bummer you:

Lies do not exist. A lie is the abscense of Truth in the same way that cold is the absence of heat. One can learn to lie, but one can not learn a lie.
If a lie is the "absence" of Truth, then can a lie be considered "nothing"? If so, the how does no nothing seek to influence the truth? Lies are more than this. A "lie" can be based on the truth, Mixed with the Truth, and even Acknowledge the Truth. Often a "lie" is more about motive, than the substance of its remark.
God is Truth. The opposite of God is nothing. A lie is a statement of something which is not Truth. As such, it is an empty statement. Whenever someone says something which is not True, they are speaking emptyness. You can not learn a lie because whatever you learn which is not True is nothingness.
You're getting into the "zero" argument. "Zero" means more than "nothing".

But none of that matters.
It obviously matters. You took time to deal with it. If it didn't matter to you, you would have ignored it. Which, is a failing of "top 0.001% of the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Quotient as normalized to the USA population"!

Don't miss the obvious.

What matters is that we recognize we are dust before the eyes of God and as such, we are ALL stupid before Him. If there is any worthwhile thoughts from any of us, it is because the Holy Spirit allow it, either through the common Grace of a Hindu or the regenerative power of the indwelling.

Statistically, you need to go through more than 10,000 people before you find someone more intelligent than.
Intelligence doesn't often = feigned humility.

If I say I am stupid, that is because I have learned a little better how little I know than the average person. As I said, despite my college minor in mathematics (straight A's of course) it was not until my late 30s that I learned how to correctly count on my fingers. It was not until 52 yo that I finally learned how much was 1+1 although.... somebody is going to give me a book on theoretical math that supposedly I'm not quite there yet.
You know, that you don't know. That it in of itself is knowledge. Which defeats the idea that the "something" can be the "absence of something". Reality is often more than the distinctions use to describe them.

JR feeling very, very stupid when I consider my Creator. But He Loves me anyway, and sees only Christ when He looks at me.
Intelligence, often equals.... silence. I know this, but I'm not smart enough to practice it. I think we are both in the same "boat".... so to speak.
 

FreeToBeMe

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Cubanito, are you going to invite Jack Koons from christianforums.com over to our lovely little playground?
 

cubanito

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Funny story about Koonzy. Me and the Great Koonz like each other. We do not agree on the perfection of manuscript preservation, but other than that we are much in agreement. Plus unlike a lot of Fuindys, he like me, enjoy a joke.

So I am banned from life from the site, the only site to do that, for trolling and being nasty to Da Koonz! Even though the policy is a first offense does not get one banned for life, as usual I am in a special category. I chose not to contest it, and I have NEVER created a fake account to circumvent the rules. I believe in obeying authority except when they clearly countermand God. So that's that.

Funny thing is I think Koonzy was not offended. I think it was a misunderstanding on the part of the moderators. Nonetheless I think the moderator acted properly in banning me. The way I was carrying on with Koonzy (and some others) could be misunderstood by others as acceptable to do to anyone. I try only to "insult" and troll my friends, after they understand that I am just playing. 

Anyway, if someone else would invite Da Great Koon it would be nice. I do not know how to get in touch with him.

If however I did truly insult Jack Koonz, then I would like to apologize. It was never my intent to do so. This is a risk I take when I roughouse with my brothers.

JR
 
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