Should pastors live in poverty.

[sword]

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/april/major-money-problems-of-church-planters-vs-other-pastors.html

The Major Money Problems of Church Planters vs. Other Pastors
Why your pastors can't save themselves.

Article states 1/3 of pastors have no money in savings at all. Over 50% have $50,000 or less saved for retirement. Most have no pension plan and some do not even pay into S.S.

1 in 5 church planters make less than $35,000 a year.

Article says the numbers are much worse for church planters are even worse. Statistics say most sr. pastors do not work a secular job in addition to their pastoral career.

Should pastors live in near poverty and what is the answer? Should churches fund retirement plans for their staff members?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/april/major-money-problems-of-church-planters-vs-other-pastors.html

 

[FSSL]

Bingo! At the Independent Baptist Association in Illinois (late 1990s) a budget was presented to pay their church planters $50,000 a year (with all planting resources to come out of those funds and no health/retirement benefits) in the suburbs of Chicago.

In that same budget, a line item was designated to put a new roof on a building that no one was using. The roof was to cost $80,000.

There was no discussion. So when the verbal nays and yeas came, I said nay and found out I was alone. Boy, did I get the glares!!!

Sadly, IFB associations are mostly concerned about the properties they have acquired than their original purposes for planting churches.

My current SBC church provides all staff with benefits, retirement and well over $75k a year.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/april/major-money-problems-of-church-planters-vs-other-pastors.html

The Major Money Problems of Church Planters vs. Other Pastors
Why your pastors can't save themselves.

Article states 1/3 of pastors have no money in savings at all. Over 50% have $50,000 or less saved for retirement. Most have no pension plan and some do not even pay into S.S.

1 in 5 church planters make less than $35,000 a year.

Article says the numbers are much worse for church planters are even worse. Statistics say most sr. pastors do not work a secular job in addition to their pastoral career.

Should pastors live in near poverty and what is the answer? Should churches fund retirement plans for their staff members?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/april/major-money-problems-of-church-planters-vs-other-pastors.html

Many of these questions require context in order to answer.

Church planters, for instance. Once upon a time, I was a church planter and it was very hard financially. We sold some of our furniture on a couple of occasions to pay the rent. I worked a job, but had 2 small children so Mrs TH didn't work. But many church planters today have short term funding from any number of church planting networks.

The size of the church and the mentality of the church also plays into how a Pastor is paid. Many/most church's I'm personally familiar with offer some type retirement plan.....some aren't very good, but are in place.

The church I serve has 5 Pastors and we are compensated as well as the average church member, including money for health insurance and matching funds that go into a retirement account.

 

[FSSL]

... along with this, is the mothering church willing to part with some dedicated church members to help the church give a strong base?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I have spent nearly 20 years in ministry.  I have never made above poverty level wages.  When, after 7 years, I asked for a raise due to cost of living increases and pointed out that my salary did not cover my basic living expenses, the pastor told me to get on welfare and just pray more and God would provide.  The pastor then left the office in one of his seven vehicles to drive to his home with a boat and two RVs in the drive.

Occasionally, I need to remind myself that I did not entertain the concept of earning money and living luxuriously when I entered the ministry.  It has been my desire to help people discover the Gospel and develop a relationship with God.  This I have been able to do. 

 

[Izdaari]

No, they should make a decent but not lavish living.
Without mansions, Rolls-Royce's, private jets.

 

[Walt]

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/april/major-money-problems-of-church-planters-vs-other-pastors.html

The Major Money Problems of Church Planters vs. Other Pastors
Why your pastors can't save themselves.

Article states 1/3 of pastors have no money in savings at all. Over 50% have $50,000 or less saved for retirement. Most have no pension plan and some do not even pay into S.S.

1 in 5 church planters make less than $35,000 a year.

Article says the numbers are much worse for church planters are even worse. Statistics say most sr. pastors do not work a secular job in addition to their pastoral career.

Should pastors live in near poverty and what is the answer? Should churches fund retirement plans for their staff members?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/april/major-money-problems-of-church-planters-vs-other-pastors.html

The DEFINITIVE answer: It depends.

 

[Walt]

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/april/major-money-problems-of-church-planters-vs-other-pastors.html

The Major Money Problems of Church Planters vs. Other Pastors
Why your pastors can't save themselves.

Article states 1/3 of pastors have no money in savings at all. Over 50% have $50,000 or less saved for retirement. Most have no pension plan and some do not even pay into S.S.

1 in 5 church planters make less than $35,000 a year.

Article says the numbers are much worse for church planters are even worse. Statistics say most sr. pastors do not work a secular job in addition to their pastoral career.

Should pastors live in near poverty and what is the answer? Should churches fund retirement plans for their staff members?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/april/major-money-problems-of-church-planters-vs-other-pastors.html

Pastors are not along in this lack of savings... Americans approaching retirement have an average of $15,000 saved.  That is appalling!

Large business have been dropping pension plans over the last decade or so, so it's not surprising to find more and more people, pastors included, with no pension plan.

It has only been recently that it is now recommended that pastors do NOT opt-out of social security -- when I was a new graduate, the move was to get pastors off of social security, and I suspect waves of pastors did so.  I only wish I could have opted out -- I've paid them a LOT of money over my working career, and I doubt I'll ever get it back.

A church planter is a pastor; however, a pastor is not a church planter.  We were talking about pastors, savings, and retirement, and then a church planter salary is brought up.

When a church is started from scratch, there is no way that they can afford to pay a pastor; the church planter must either be independently wealthy, or be supported by the sending church, or else take a secular job.

A work is no  longer a "church plant" when they can pay their pastor sufficiently that he is not dependent upon outside income.  After that, I think the goal should be to pay the pastor around what the average member with a regular job earns per year. They should do all that they can that is legal to reduce the tax burden (in America, this usually results in "allowances" for home, car, gas, utilities - such things used to not be taxable).

On the plus side, the pastor of a small church (no staff, or family helping out) has NO ONE checking that he is at the church studying or otherwise working on "church business".  Another bonus: Most pastors take every Monday off, whereas most of the congregation works seven days a week: Mon-Fri or Sat at their secular job, and then they "work" at church on Sunday, teaching classes, etc.

On the negative side, a pastor can be called any time of the day or night with member emergencies.  A visiting child may misquote something from a Sunday School lesson/teacher, and the parent is all over the pastor about the church being a cult or else the teacher teaching heresy.  Like it or not, he is the  face of the church, with all the negatives that can bring.

A small church will not be able to pay what a larger church can.

Tom Brennan had a great series of articles about pastoral pay; specifically, the problems a church can run into when the pastor cannot pastor because of age: if he has no retirement, and the church tries to support him in retirement, they may not be able to afford a new pastor.

 

[Walt]

I have spent nearly 20 years in ministry.  I have never made above poverty level wages.  When, after 7 years, I asked for a raise due to cost of living increases and pointed out that my salary did not cover my basic living expenses, the pastor told me to get on welfare and just pray more and God would provide.  The pastor then left the office in one of his seven vehicles to drive to his home with a boat and two RVs in the drive.

This "pastor" is unworthy of the name and is being a jerk.  No one should have to go on welfare just because they are in the ministry, and that goes TRIPLE for a staff member in a church where the pastor lives so well.

Occasionally, I need to remind myself that I did not entertain the concept of earning money and living luxuriously when I entered the ministry.  It has been my desire to help people discover the Gospel and develop a relationship with God.  This I have been able to do.

Well... not much to say, but may God bless you!

 

[Bruh]

I believe a pastor should at the least make what their average church member makes annually.

 

[PaulLee]

This is a multi faceted response:

In small churches, pastors may not make a decent salary and may need to consider working a secular job.  Paul did such so there is Biblical precedent.  Additionally, in many countries, the only way to get a missionary in is to have the missionary come in with a job and then proselytize others.

In a larger church, finances should be such that taking care of their pastor or pastors is never in question.  There is no excuse.  Specific circumstances may occur when this principle cannot be applied, but generally it is on the mark.  The church is failing in their part.  If a pastor has a secular job and is content to work that job but is still effective in their roll as a pastor (or staffer) then no harm done.

Having a staffer on government assistance is generally wrong.  God will bless the individual for the work they are doing but God will hold the pastors and other leaders accountable for not taking care of their leaders.

Don't be surprised if the government makes a rule that receiving benefits from the government may create a situation where they may be able to exert some level of authority over that church.  It is far better to ensure the pastoral staff can make a decent living and have a retirement (whether funded directly or provided for in the salary).

And for the record: No pastor should in any way shame their flock into gifts for them or the staff (birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, etc.).  If it does not come from the people's hearts, it is extortion and not a gift.

Just a layman's point of view. 

 

[FSSL]

Paul... Excellent first post and welcome to the forum!!!

 

[bgwilkinson]

When I first saw this my answer was an emphatic, "NO, no one should live in poverty, get a job and earn some money, funny how that works."

In the 40s and 50s my dad was a church planting missionary working a corridor from Minneapolis to McAllen, TX. He was totally self funding and we never lived in poverty. He paid our way like Paul the Apostle, by working.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

When I first saw this my answer was an emphatic, "NO, no one should live in poverty, get a job and earn some money, funny how that works."

In the 40s and 50s my dad was a church planting missionary working a corridor from Minneapolis to McAllen, TX. He was totally self funding and we never lived in poverty. He paid our way like Paul the Apostle, by working.

Sounds nice, but I was told by the pastor, mog, who just celebrated his 25th anniversary at the church, that I was not allowed to get a part time job without vacating my position.  I needed to be available for the church functions and the church visitation and if I had all that extra time to consider getting a side job, I probably hadn't really earned a raise anyhow.  Hence, I was left with a decision to either quit ministry or get a job.  It took me another three years before I finally quit his ministry.

 

[Bruh]

When I first saw this my answer was an emphatic, "NO, no one should live in poverty, get a job and earn some money, funny how that works."

In the 40s and 50s my dad was a church planting missionary working a corridor from Minneapolis to McAllen, TX. He was totally self funding and we never lived in poverty. He paid our way like Paul the Apostle, by working.

Sounds nice, but I was told by the pastor, mog, who just celebrated his 25th anniversary at the church, that I was not allowed to get a part time job without vacating my position.  I needed to be available for the church functions and the church visitation and if I had all that extra time to consider getting a side job, I probably hadn't really earned a raise anyhow.  Hence, I was left with a decision to either quit ministry or get a job.  It took me another three years before I finally quit his ministry.

Good for you BC!!

I was a member of one church and the pastor wanted me to quit my job and get a job another one that paid as much as his, in order for me to spend more time the church, he worked a secular job as pastor and the church paid him a small salary.

Poor fella would tell me, trust the Lord he will take care of you. I would tell him, I understand and He is taking care of me now.

This guy had serious control issues. I finally told him to back off or we would have some serious issues if he didn't.

He wanted me to move in a 16 x 80 trailer down the street from his.

Dude was crazy!

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

No, they should make a decent but not lavish living.
Without mansions, Rolls-Royce's, private jets.

Oh oh. Does my Lincoln Towncar and Mercedes SL convertible pass muster?

 

[prophet]

As a church planter, I depend on God to provide work/funds for those early unfunded days.

We've been fine.

As far as established works...yes, Scripturally, they should provide double a living wage....

But, we don't want to hear that.

We like our slaves humble...

earnestly contend

 

[sword]

No, they should make a decent but not lavish living.
Without mansions, Rolls-Royce's, private jets.

Oh oh. Does my Lincoln Towncar and Mercedes SL convertible pass muster?

A Lincoln is a great pastors car. Big & classy.
The SL might be a little flashy.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5L5i_m9NckU/Vkx9I76WTVI/AAAAAAAACzU/aZQ1Z92fzOk/s1600/2016-Mercedes-Benz-SL-00.jpg

Rented one in LA one year when I stayed over the weekend on business. Last I checked a new one was $80,000 plus sales tax.

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

No, they should make a decent but not lavish living.
Without mansions, Rolls-Royce's, private jets.

Oh oh. Does my Lincoln Towncar and Mercedes SL convertible pass muster?

A Lincoln is a great pastors car. Big & classy.
The SL might be a little flashy.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5L5i_m9NckU/Vkx9I76WTVI/AAAAAAAACzU/aZQ1Z92fzOk/s1600/2016-Mercedes-Benz-SL-00.jpg

Rented one in LA one year when I stayed over the weekend on business. Last I checked a new one was $80,000 plus sales tax.

Mine is a little older. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=100283329987829&set=a.100283109987851.514.100000184861551&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=100284013321094&set=a.100283109987851.514.100000184861551&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=100284016654427&set=a.100283109987851.514.100000184861551&type=3&theater

 

[brianb]

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/april/major-money-problems-of-church-planters-vs-other-pastors.html

The Major Money Problems of Church Planters vs. Other Pastors
Why your pastors can't save themselves.

Article states 1/3 of pastors have no money in savings at all. Over 50% have $50,000 or less saved for retirement. Most have no pension plan and some do not even pay into S.S.

1 in 5 church planters make less than $35,000 a year.

Article says the numbers are much worse for church planters are even worse. Statistics say most sr. pastors do not work a secular job in addition to their pastoral career.

Should pastors live in near poverty and what is the answer? Should churches fund retirement plans for their staff members?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/april/major-money-problems-of-church-planters-vs-other-pastors.html

He should get more than a living wage - maybe double but it should be enough for him and his wife (and children although they might get child allowance or tax credit any ways from the feds).  In my church we also paid for housing and give him extra like a book allowance.