Small Groups

[ItinerantPreacher]

FWIW In the church I attend they have small groups and a pastor of small groups. It is my understanding that for anyone to hold a leadership position (deacon, elder, small group leader) they are asked if they will submit to a year long training program to even be considered. I recently looked at the syllabus for this and they have got to read more books on doctrine than I read in four years of Bible college. Once they complete the program they may then be asked to lead a small group, etc.

By the way, the church runs about 2000 a weekend I would say. I don't know how long this program has been in existence or what they did in the earlier days but after writing this I am kind of curious.

I very much like the sounds of this. My concern with anyone teaching is what do they know or conversely what do fhey believe so I will know what they will teach.

 

[subllibrm]

FWIW In the church I attend they have small groups and a pastor of small groups. It is my understanding that for anyone to hold a leadership position (deacon, elder, small group leader) they are asked if they will submit to a year long training program to even be considered. I recently looked at the syllabus for this and they have got to read more books on doctrine than I read in four years of Bible college. Once they complete the program they may then be asked to lead a small group, etc.

By the way, the church runs about 2000 a weekend I would say. I don't know how long this program has been in existence or what they did in the earlier days but after writing this I am kind of curious.

This is how it is done correctly.

I suppose there could be some church that thinks "Hey! Let's have small groups" and jump in all willy-nilly and look silly. But none I have ever known of personally.

Training. Commitment. Oversight. Followup. Reporting. Additional training. And that is just the leaders.

I will just let the cat out of the bag so people don't have to make things up.

The training of the small group leader is the critical issue of success or failure. Leadership development is an underlying goal. Church growth though new contacts and conversions will require trained leadership. Small groups, properly designed and implemented, will generate both the new believers and the new leaders.

Discipleship of the group members is the primary responsibility of the group leader. The group leader answers to the elders so none of this is done in a vacuum.

Clearly biblical and clearly nonthreatening to a church not stuck on the single MOG model.

 

[subllibrm]

A "MOG" lives in the constant fear that ministry will not get done unless he does it.

We turned the whole ministry "activity" mindset on its head. It used to be that pastor would decide what needed to be done, decide who should do it and go tell them to get it done. Now we have a pastor and board that says "if God lays a burden on your heart,go get it done and come back and tell us what He did through you". Oh my, the people have responded in ways I could never have imagined.

No more losing good ideas in the endless morass of committee/board approval cycles. No more squashing a person's fire with endless policy hoops to jump through. No more pastors with so much on their plate that they can't handle one more thing.

Now before someone accuses us of anarchy, there are still committees and oversight. The good ideas still have to fit within the framework of our mission and purpose. There are still policies but the are designed to steer not strangle.

FWIW I'm not advocating that anyone else follow our model, just noting that it is being blessed by God and we are seeing Him work.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

A "MOG" lives in the constant fear that ministry will not get done unless he does it.

We turned the whole ministry "activity" mindset on its head. It used to be that pastor would decide what needed to be done, decide who should do it and go tell them to get it done. Now we have a pastor and board that says "if God lays a burden on your heart,go get it done and come back and tell us what He did through you". Oh my, the people have responded in ways I could never have imagined.

No more losing good ideas in the endless morass of committee/board approval cycles. No more squashing a person's fire with endless policy hoops to jump through. No more pastors with so much on their plate that they can't handle one more thing.

Now before someone accuses us of anarchy, there are still committees and oversight. The good ideas still have to fit within the framework of our mission and purpose. There are still policies but the are designed to steer not strangle.

FWIW I'm not advocating that anyone else follow our model, just noting that it is being blessed by God and we are seeing Him work.

I imagine there are cases where someone would have something very valuable to contribute in a "church service", too.  That's one reason why I like "29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge." 

Another reason is that preachers routinely get away with teaching error because nobody is allowed to contribute during the sermon.  If others were allowed to speak during the time allotted for a sermon, he'd have to deal with the possibility of being corrected. 

That could only be a good thing.  After all, "let the others judge."  Sort of like "we report, you decide."

 

[subllibrm]

We turned the whole ministry "activity" mindset on its head. ...

Some good thoughts! It would be interesting to look into history and see how this professional MOG developed.

Is it the fault of viewing Bible College graduates as the proper MOG?

I would say that it is an ongoing process with our pastor. He sees his role as mentoring leaders who will lead with him. He is very focused on the idea of raising up men from the body to plant churches that we would support. I referenced the idea of teaching one to teach others and so on. His desire/vision is to build a self replicating church. Not a bible college to make clones of himself but to use the church as the training ground to develop the next generation of church leaders. That is not to say that he is anti-bible school and that it is not part of the plan for these men (after all pastor is working on his own master's right now). But there is no bible college in scripture yet there are faithful men teaching faithful men to teach faithful men who will teach faithful men. That is a church function and responsibility.

Needless to say, I am loving what God is doing in our church these days!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

A "MOG" lives in the constant fear that ministry will not get done unless he does it.

We turned the whole ministry "activity" mindset on its head. It used to be that pastor would decide what needed to be done, decide who should do it and go tell them to get it done. Now we have a pastor and board that says "if God lays a burden on your heart,go get it done and come back and tell us what He did through you". Oh my, the people have responded in ways I could never have imagined.

No more losing good ideas in the endless morass of committee/board approval cycles. No more squashing a person's fire with endless policy hoops to jump through. No more pastors with so much on their plate that they can't handle one more thing.

Now before someone accuses us of anarchy, there are still committees and oversight. The good ideas still have to fit within the framework of our mission and purpose. There are still policies but the are designed to steer not strangle.

FWIW I'm not advocating that anyone else follow our model, just noting that it is being blessed by God and we are seeing Him work.

I imagine there are cases where someone would have something very valuable to contribute in a "church service", too.  That's one reason why I like "29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge." 

Another reason is that preachers routinely get away with teaching error because nobody is allowed to contribute during the sermon.  If others were allowed to speak during the time allotted for a sermon, he'd have to deal with the possibility of being corrected. 

That could only be a good thing.  After all, "let the others judge."  Sort of like "we report, you decide."

Sounds good....no Bible precedent....but sounds real good!
If only you'd been around in the first century church...

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

A "MOG" lives in the constant fear that ministry will not get done unless he does it.

We turned the whole ministry "activity" mindset on its head. It used to be that pastor would decide what needed to be done, decide who should do it and go tell them to get it done. Now we have a pastor and board that says "if God lays a burden on your heart,go get it done and come back and tell us what He did through you". Oh my, the people have responded in ways I could never have imagined.

No more losing good ideas in the endless morass of committee/board approval cycles. No more squashing a person's fire with endless policy hoops to jump through. No more pastors with so much on their plate that they can't handle one more thing.

Now before someone accuses us of anarchy, there are still committees and oversight. The good ideas still have to fit within the framework of our mission and purpose. There are still policies but the are designed to steer not strangle.

FWIW I'm not advocating that anyone else follow our model, just noting that it is being blessed by God and we are seeing Him work.

I imagine there are cases where someone would have something very valuable to contribute in a "church service", too.  That's one reason why I like "29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge." 

Another reason is that preachers routinely get away with teaching error because nobody is allowed to contribute during the sermon.  If others were allowed to speak during the time allotted for a sermon, he'd have to deal with the possibility of being corrected. 

That could only be a good thing.  After all, "let the others judge."  Sort of like "we report, you decide."

So you would have no problem with me halting you mid service/teaching/preaching and interjecting what I thought or my interpretation of the passage you were teaching out of?

 

[christundivided]

A "MOG" lives in the constant fear that ministry will not get done unless he does it.

We turned the whole ministry "activity" mindset on its head. It used to be that pastor would decide what needed to be done, decide who should do it and go tell them to get it done. Now we have a pastor and board that says "if God lays a burden on your heart,go get it done and come back and tell us what He did through you". Oh my, the people have responded in ways I could never have imagined.

No more losing good ideas in the endless morass of committee/board approval cycles. No more squashing a person's fire with endless policy hoops to jump through. No more pastors with so much on their plate that they can't handle one more thing.

Now before someone accuses us of anarchy, there are still committees and oversight. The good ideas still have to fit within the framework of our mission and purpose. There are still policies but the are designed to steer not strangle.

FWIW I'm not advocating that anyone else follow our model, just noting that it is being blessed by God and we are seeing Him work.

I imagine there are cases where someone would have something very valuable to contribute in a "church service", too.  That's one reason why I like "29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge." 

Another reason is that preachers routinely get away with teaching error because nobody is allowed to contribute during the sermon.  If others were allowed to speak during the time allotted for a sermon, he'd have to deal with the possibility of being corrected. 

That could only be a good thing.  After all, "let the others judge."  Sort of like "we report, you decide."

So you would have no problem with me halting you mid service/teaching/preaching and interjecting what I thought or my interpretation of the passage you were teaching out of?

Someone needs to halt that mess your pulling.....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

A "MOG" lives in the constant fear that ministry will not get done unless he does it.

We turned the whole ministry "activity" mindset on its head. It used to be that pastor would decide what needed to be done, decide who should do it and go tell them to get it done. Now we have a pastor and board that says "if God lays a burden on your heart,go get it done and come back and tell us what He did through you". Oh my, the people have responded in ways I could never have imagined.

No more losing good ideas in the endless morass of committee/board approval cycles. No more squashing a person's fire with endless policy hoops to jump through. No more pastors with so much on their plate that they can't handle one more thing.

Now before someone accuses us of anarchy, there are still committees and oversight. The good ideas still have to fit within the framework of our mission and purpose. There are still policies but the are designed to steer not strangle.

FWIW I'm not advocating that anyone else follow our model, just noting that it is being blessed by God and we are seeing Him work.

I imagine there are cases where someone would have something very valuable to contribute in a "church service", too.  That's one reason why I like "29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge." 

Another reason is that preachers routinely get away with teaching error because nobody is allowed to contribute during the sermon.  If others were allowed to speak during the time allotted for a sermon, he'd have to deal with the possibility of being corrected. 

That could only be a good thing.  After all, "let the others judge."  Sort of like "we report, you decide."

So you would have no problem with me halting you mid service/teaching/preaching and interjecting what I thought or my interpretation of the passage you were teaching out of?

I don't teach/preach, so the answer is only academic.  But that's what it says, doesn't it?  "30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent."  So if I'm teaching error and the truth of the matter is revealed to you, I should keep silent and let you speak.

Not all revelations are about errors, but that's the context of your question, I think.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

A "MOG" lives in the constant fear that ministry will not get done unless he does it.

We turned the whole ministry "activity" mindset on its head. It used to be that pastor would decide what needed to be done, decide who should do it and go tell them to get it done. Now we have a pastor and board that says "if God lays a burden on your heart,go get it done and come back and tell us what He did through you". Oh my, the people have responded in ways I could never have imagined.

No more losing good ideas in the endless morass of committee/board approval cycles. No more squashing a person's fire with endless policy hoops to jump through. No more pastors with so much on their plate that they can't handle one more thing.

Now before someone accuses us of anarchy, there are still committees and oversight. The good ideas still have to fit within the framework of our mission and purpose. There are still policies but the are designed to steer not strangle.

FWIW I'm not advocating that anyone else follow our model, just noting that it is being blessed by God and we are seeing Him work.

I imagine there are cases where someone would have something very valuable to contribute in a "church service", too.  That's one reason why I like "29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge." 

Another reason is that preachers routinely get away with teaching error because nobody is allowed to contribute during the sermon.  If others were allowed to speak during the time allotted for a sermon, he'd have to deal with the possibility of being corrected. 

That could only be a good thing.  After all, "let the others judge."  Sort of like "we report, you decide."

So you would have no problem with me halting you mid service/teaching/preaching and interjecting what I thought or my interpretation of the passage you were teaching out of?

1. I don't teach/preach, so the answer is only academic. But that's what it says, doesn't it?  "30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent."  2. So if I'm teaching error and the truth of the matter is revealed to you, I should keep silent and let you speak.

Not all revelations are about errors, but that's the context of your question, I think.

1. It would not be academic if you were the one teaching.
2. Define error. I am a cessationist, and so is the emebership. We have a non-cessationist attending. I am currently teaching a SS series on signs gifts wonders and miracles. He and I see the topic differently. Should we have open public dialogue, or talk about it privately?

 

[subllibrm]

<snip>Should we have open public dialogue, or talk about it privately?

Absolutely!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

2. Define error. I am a cessationist, and so is the emebership. We have a non-cessationist attending. I am currently teaching a SS series on signs gifts wonders and miracles. He and I see the topic differently. Should we have open public dialogue, or talk about it privately?

You raise many questions, not the least of which would be, "How many emebers do you have? Are they anything lie amoebas?"

Are you a total cessationist?  Because then you'd believe you couldn't have the gift of teaching. 

You don't allow any interaction in your Sunday School classes, either?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

2. Define error. I am a cessationist, and so is the emebership. We have a non-cessationist attending. I am currently teaching a SS series on signs gifts wonders and miracles. He and I see the topic differently. Should we have open public dialogue, or talk about it privately?

You raise many questions, not the least of which would be, "How many emebers do you have? Are they anything lie amoebas?"

Are you a total cessationist?  Because then you'd believe you couldn't have the gift of teaching. 

You don't allow any interaction in your Sunday School classes, either?

There was interaction around our kitchen table tonight, I asked my wife to pass the green beans....

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

2. Define error. I am a cessationist, and so is the emebership. We have a non-cessationist attending. I am currently teaching a SS series on signs gifts wonders and miracles. He and I see the topic differently. Should we have open public dialogue, or talk about it privately?

You raise many questions, not the least of which would be, "How many emebers do you have? Are they anything lie amoebas?"

Are you a total cessationist?  Because then you'd believe you couldn't have the gift of teaching. 

You don't allow any interaction in your Sunday School classes, either?

I suspect the clarification I am offering is pointless. I am referring to those gifts commonly referred to as sign gifts. Tongues, the gift of healing (differing from God healing in accordance to prayer), prophecies, (foretelling not forthtelling) drinking deadly things (no one practices this BTW) the taking up of serpents etc. There is a set of gifts still in use today, teaching is one of them.

So, dispense with the wordsmithing and grammar policing and simply answer the question.

 

[ALAYMAN]

So, dispense with the wordsmithing and grammar policing and simply answer the question.

lol

good luck with that one.

 

[prophet]

A "MOG" lives in the constant fear that ministry will not get done unless he does it.

We turned the whole ministry "activity" mindset on its head. It used to be that pastor would decide what needed to be done, decide who should do it and go tell them to get it done. Now we have a pastor and board that says "if God lays a burden on your heart,go get it done and come back and tell us what He did through you". Oh my, the people have responded in ways I could never have imagined.

No more losing good ideas in the endless morass of committee/board approval cycles. No more squashing a person's fire with endless policy hoops to jump through. No more pastors with so much on their plate that they can't handle one more thing.

Now before someone accuses us of anarchy, there are still committees and oversight. The good ideas still have to fit within the framework of our mission and purpose. There are still policies but the are designed to steer not strangle.

FWIW I'm not advocating that anyone else follow our model, just noting that it is being blessed by God and we are seeing Him work.

I imagine there are cases where someone would have something very valuable to contribute in a "church service", too.  That's one reason why I like "29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge." 

Another reason is that preachers routinely get away with teaching error because nobody is allowed to contribute during the sermon.  If others were allowed to speak during the time allotted for a sermon, he'd have to deal with the possibility of being corrected. 

That could only be a good thing.  After all, "let the others judge."  Sort of like "we report, you decide."

So you would have no problem with me halting you mid service/teaching/preaching and interjecting what I thought or my interpretation of the passage you were teaching out of?

You'd have to wait til your turn, but, no.

If God has already revealed sonething to you, concerning the passage being taugh, and especially if you know I am  mistaken,  then when it is your turn, you will  have an opportunity to expound.

 

[prophet]

2. Define error. I am a cessationist, and so is the emebership. We have a non-cessationist attending. I am currently teaching a SS series on signs gifts wonders and miracles. He and I see the topic differently. Should we have open public dialogue, or talk about it privately?

You raise many questions, not the least of which would be, "How many emebers do you have? Are they anything lie amoebas?"

Are you a total cessationist?  Because then you'd believe you couldn't have the gift of teaching. 

You don't allow any interaction in your Sunday School classes, either?

I suspect the clarification I am offering is pointless. I am referring to those gifts commonly referred to as sign gifts. Tongues, the gift of healing (differing from God healing in accordance to prayer), prophecies, (foretelling not forthtelling) drinking deadly things (no one practices this BTW) the taking up of serpents etc. There is a set of gifts still in use today, teaching is one of them.

So, dispense with the wordsmithing and grammar policing and simply answer the question.

I Corinthians wasn't written to a church full of Apostles, and ch. 14 ends like this:

1Co 14:37
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


So to confess that prophecy has ceased, is to confess that you are not spiritual.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

2. Define error. I am a cessationist, and so is the emebership. We have a non-cessationist attending. I am currently teaching a SS series on signs gifts wonders and miracles. He and I see the topic differently. Should we have open public dialogue, or talk about it privately?

You raise many questions, not the least of which would be, "How many emebers do you have? Are they anything lie amoebas?"

Are you a total cessationist?  Because then you'd believe you couldn't have the gift of teaching. 

You don't allow any interaction in your Sunday School classes, either?

I suspect the clarification I am offering is pointless. I am referring to those gifts commonly referred to as sign gifts. Tongues, the gift of healing (differing from God healing in accordance to prayer), prophecies, (foretelling not forthtelling) drinking deadly things (no one practices this BTW) the taking up of serpents etc. There is a set of gifts still in use today, teaching is one of them.

So, dispense with the wordsmithing and grammar policing and simply answer the question.

I Corinthians wasn't written to a church full of Apostles, and ch. 14 ends like this:

1Co 14:37
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


So to confess that prophecy has ceased, is to confess that you are not spiritual.

Please give your definition of prophecy. I did.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I Corinthians wasn't written to a church full of Apostles, and ch. 14 ends like this:

1Co 14:37
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


So to confess that prophecy has ceased, is to confess that you are not spiritual.

He obviously doesn't think any of those instructions (including "29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.") are the commandments of God.  He thinks people who agree with this scripture are just people who want the spotlight.  That's why he believes preaching means only one person should be the center of attention. 

Oh, the irony. 

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Obfuscate, evade, ignore, play with words. As I suspected.

What I suspect is that this is exactly how you are in church. Which is of course a miserable, pitiful example of Christianity, but a wonderful example of self serving, self righteous carnality.

You are simply confirming what I already suspected, that there is not a spiritual bone in you. Either that, or you are adolescent, in which case you should go tell momma you are playing on the internet past your bedtime again.