Submission... What do you do with Paul's statements on the topic?

[FSSL]

I am interested in what people do with the passages on submission in Paul's writings.

I had a student in my SS class back in 1991 tell me that she marked through those verses because she didn't believe them.

Well, at least it was an honest, although despicable approach.

 

[Izdaari]

IIRC, that passage refers to married couples, and I think if read correctly it makes it clear that it's mutual. I don't do a thing with it because I'm not married.  I was once, but didn't worry about it because I wasn't a Christian then. 

 

[Izdaari]

If the OP had in mind Romans 13, I believe the correct translation doesn't refer to government, but to unspecified authorities, possibly family, community or church. I don't believe in making trouble without a very good reason. But if the authorities, whoever they may be, violate my rights, that becomes a different matter. If they do that, I don't believe that's what God wants, and I will take whatever action seens right, considering all the circumstances.

 

[lnf]

Cite specific verses/passages and I will answer specifically...

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I don't recall Paul going on any submissions.  I don't think they even had subs in those days.  He got shipwrecked, though. 

 

[NorrinRadd]

I am interested in what people do with the passages on submission in Paul's writings.

I had a student in my SS class back in 1991 tell me that she marked through those verses because she didn't believe them.

Well, at least it was an honest, although despicable approach.

Whether it is "despicable" depends on what she meant by "didn't believe them."

The controversy about "submission" or "subjection" usually arises in regard to the domestic codes, the idea that the "man" is "head of the house," and that the wife is to "submit" or "be subject" to him.  "Hupotasso" occurs over 30 times in the NT, but it is usually those 4 or so passages in Paul and one in First Peter where wives submitting to husbands is at issue that are the subject of dispute.

The short answer is "I dismiss them."

The longer answer is that I consider equality of husband and wife to be the norm as taught in the pattern of the original Creation, that the Fall damaged this, and that in Christ that ideal is to be restored.  Those passages that suggest otherwise are not universal, but are dealing with specific issues at specific places.

 

[FSSL]

Whether it is "despicable" depends on what she meant by "didn't believe them."

She "marked through them." So, for her, it was not a matter of how one interprets/applies the word "submission." She out-right rejected the legitimacy of the verses, in the first place.

The former would be an interpretation issue.
The second is truly a problem with submission, to God, altogether.

 

[brianb]

I am interested in what people do with the passages on submission in Paul's writings.

I had a student in my SS class back in 1991 tell me that she marked through those verses because she didn't believe them.

Well, at least it was an honest, although despicable approach.

1st.  We acknowledge that Christ is our example of submission. He submitted to the will of God.
2nd. Submission is only to his person or position in the relationship not to any demands that mean disobedience to Christ.
3rd. Be filled with Spirit and submission will be easier.

 

[Izdaari]

I tap out if someone has me in a good submission hold and I can't break it.
But I do that to others a lot more than they do it to me.

 

[T-Bone]

I believe this word "submit" speaks of properly relating to.  We submit to God as we properly relate to Him and who He is and who we are.  We submit to one another as Paul said, as we properly relate to one another as being part of the body of Christ.  For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband.

To just mark through or to avoid these altogether is to place one's self as the final authority as to what one will or will not accept from God's Word...to do such ultimately makes the whole thing null and void.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I believe this word "submit" speaks of properly relating to.  We submit to God as we properly relate to Him and who He is and who we are.  We submit to one another as Paul said, as we properly relate to one another as being part of the body of Christ.  For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband.

...

IMO, that hierarchical view of husband and wife is not consistent with the whole of Scripture.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Whether it is "despicable" depends on what she meant by "didn't believe them."

She "marked through them." So, for her, it was not a matter of how one interprets/applies the word "submission." She out-right rejected the legitimacy of the verses, in the first place.

The former would be an interpretation issue.
The second is truly a problem with submission, to God, altogether.

It could still be an issue with interpretation.  I take those domestic codes as applying primarily to the original recipients.  In terms of their universal and perpetual applicability, like the commands for slaves to obey their masters, I "don't believe them."

 

[T-Bone]

I believe this word "submit" speaks of properly relating to.  We submit to God as we properly relate to Him and who He is and who we are.  We submit to one another as Paul said, as we properly relate to one another as being part of the body of Christ.  For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband.

...

IMO, that hierarchical view of husband and wife is not consistent with the whole of Scripture.

Would you like to show in my statement where I mentioned such a view?

 

[NorrinRadd]

I believe this word "submit" speaks of properly relating to.  We submit to God as we properly relate to Him and who He is and who we are.  We submit to one another as Paul said, as we properly relate to one another as being part of the body of Christ.  For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband.

...

IMO, that hierarchical view of husband and wife is not consistent with the whole of Scripture.

Would you like to show in my statement where I mentioned such a view?

I don't know how else to interpret this:  "For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband."

 

[T-Bone]

I believe this word "submit" speaks of properly relating to.  We submit to God as we properly relate to Him and who He is and who we are.  We submit to one another as Paul said, as we properly relate to one another as being part of the body of Christ.  For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband.

...

IMO, that hierarchical view of husband and wife is not consistent with the whole of Scripture.

Would you like to show in my statement where I mentioned such a view?

I don't know how else to interpret this:  "For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband."

Who else is she supposed to properly relate to as her husband...you clearly are reading your bias into my statement where it's not there.

I said Paul told us to submit, properly related to one another as believers ...do you automatically see a hierarchical system in that statement?

 

[Walt]

I am interested in what people do with the passages on submission in Paul's writings.

I had a student in my SS class back in 1991 tell me that she marked through those verses because she didn't believe them.

Well, at least it was an honest, although despicable approach.

I agree with the reply that requested specific verses; there are verses about submitting to those that rule over you in church (church leaders), verses about submitting to the ordinances of man for the Lord's sake, about husbands submitting to wives, about wives submitting to husbands, and all of us are to submit to Christ.

Regarding women and men:

- There is NOTHING in Scripture that says women are to submit to men, or implies in any way that women are inferior to men. (In fact, Christianity exalts the place of women; look at the place women have in Islamic culture; and then look at how much freer women are in countries that are, or were, Christian:  UK and US to name a few.... side issue).

- The Scripture does NOT say that all wives are to be submissive to all husbands; it DOES say that a wife is to "submit" or "reverence" her OWN husband.

... and so on.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I believe this word "submit" speaks of properly relating to.  We submit to God as we properly relate to Him and who He is and who we are.  We submit to one another as Paul said, as we properly relate to one another as being part of the body of Christ.  For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband.

...

IMO, that hierarchical view of husband and wife is not consistent with the whole of Scripture.

Would you like to show in my statement where I mentioned such a view?

I don't know how else to interpret this:  "For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband."

Just mark thru it and move on until you find something more agreeable!

 

[T-Bone]

I believe this word "submit" speaks of properly relating to.  We submit to God as we properly relate to Him and who He is and who we are.  We submit to one another as Paul said, as we properly relate to one another as being part of the body of Christ.  For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband.

...

IMO, that hierarchical view of husband and wife is not consistent with the whole of Scripture.

Would you like to show in my statement where I mentioned such a view?

I don't know how else to interpret this:  "For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband."

Just mark thru it and move on until you find something more agreeable!

Seems to be the "mode of operation" by so many here lately on this forum...I guess believing the Bible is passe.

 

[FSSL]

Of course they will cry out, "It depends on what you mean by 'Bible.'"

 

[NorrinRadd]

I believe this word "submit" speaks of properly relating to.  We submit to God as we properly relate to Him and who He is and who we are.  We submit to one another as Paul said, as we properly relate to one another as being part of the body of Christ.  For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband.

...

IMO, that hierarchical view of husband and wife is not consistent with the whole of Scripture.

Would you like to show in my statement where I mentioned such a view?

I don't know how else to interpret this:  "For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband."

Who else is she supposed to properly relate to as her husband...you clearly are reading your bias into my statement where it's not there.

No, you are clearly dissembling.  The normal way to understand your phrasing is that "submitting" is the proper way a wife "relates" to her husband.  That is hierarchy, specifically patriarchy.

I said Paul told us to submit, properly related to one another as believers ...do you automatically see a hierarchical system in that statement?

No, because it is inherently mutual and equal.  If you had said, "For the wife to submit is to properly relate to her husband, as her husband; and for the husband, to submit is to properly relate to his wife, as his wife," I would have had no objection.