The Age of Accountability

PappaBear

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The question comes to accountability. The Bible is filled with example of its doctrine. This truth is not limited to only David's statement about the deceased baby from his sinful union with Bathsheba where he said, "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." (2Sam 12:23)

There are many Biblical evidences of children not being held accountable for their wrong doing because they are not yet of age to understand their sin as sin.

1) The half-shekel atonement indicates this.

Exodus 30:
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs:) an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.
14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

It appears that Biblically, the atonement for the souls of men was required only for those 20 years old and above.

2) We also see this in the sin of Israel at Kadesh-Barnea.

The Lord sent them to wander in the wilderness until those 20 years old and up had died, except for Joshua and Caleb. Apparently, those under 20 were not held responsible for this sin.

Numbers 14:
26 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.
33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

3) Children are not held responsible for keeping the commandments of the Lord which they can not yet understand.

But the parents, who have seen God's working and can understand, are held accountable.

Deuteronomy 11:
1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.
2 And know ye this day: for I speak not with your children which have not known, and which have not seen the chastisement of the LORD your God, his greatness, his mighty hand, and his stretched out arm,

4) God reasons with Jonah regarding His sparing of Ninevah by citing the children. Should those so young that they cannot discern good from evil (knowing their right from their left) be destroyed without mercy?

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

God indicated to Jonah his compassion for the children of Ninevah.  He does not describe them as those under a certain age, but those who do not yet know their right hand from their left.  In other words, they were not yet old enough to discern one way from the other.  "Right hand from the left" has long been understood to represent those who cannot determine right from wrong.

5) Lastly, God does not condemn without law.

Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Can a child be held accountable for doing good or evil in which he does not even yet possess the capability of knowing good from evil? I trow not.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The wages of sin is death.  The reason we go to hell is because we are accountable for our sins.  Salvation is from sin's penalty.  That is why Christ was sacrificed on the cross.  He paid for our sins.

With children, there is no question that they are sinful, because they violate many of the "laws" of God.  The question is how accountable are they for those sins for which they have no knowledge? 

The scriptures tell us that while some are incapable of understanding right from wrong, they are not accountable for those sins, much like Adam and Eve in the Garden.  When in the Garden, they were aware of only one law to obey -- don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  That was the one thing for which they were accountable, regardless what other laws of later revelation they may have transgressed.  They were innocent because they were accountable for only the one command.

Romans 3:20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

We understand what sin is only when we have knowledge of the law. 

Romans 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Here, Paul contends that you cannot break a law that does not exist.  But when there is the presence of a law, violating it brings transgression.  Do 2 month olds comprehend the laws of God?  Not hardly. So then they can be considered as "without law" or at a place in their life where no law is.

The word "imputed" means to be recorded on account.  Romans 5:13 states plainly that there is no accounting of sin when there is no law.  Those who have not yet reached a stage where they can comprehend right from wrong literally have no "law."

Now, many will make a valid argument about God's laws being universally revealed from heaven, and being set in the hearts of all men, including the lost, so that we are all guilty, even the heathen.  This was Paul's argument in Romans 1-3.  But in the case of children or the mentally undeveloped, they in no way comprehend these principles.  This reasoning is not one of "ignorance of the law," because ignorance includes the idea of willfully ignoring some things ["ignore" is the root base of the word "ignorance"].  It is not a matter that these have ignored the law, they just have not yet reached a stage in growth where they can understand it so they can be held accountable for it.  It is therefore not a transgression and is not imputed to them.

 
I doubt the age of accountability, but that was one of the better arguments for it.

Even infants (or at least toddlers) know right from wrong, though, so there's a problem with your argument for age 20. 

 
Castor Muscular said:
I doubt the age of accountability, but that was one of the better arguments for it.

Even infants (or at least toddlers) know right from wrong, though, so there's a problem with your argument for age 20.

Do you believe young children, even babies go to hell?

 
Holy Mole said:
Castor Muscular said:
I doubt the age of accountability, but that was one of the better arguments for it.

Even infants (or at least toddlers) know right from wrong, though, so there's a problem with your argument for age 20.

Do you believe young children, even babies go to hell?

No, but I have no scripture for that.  Just God's mercy. 
 
David spoke of his dead son conceived in and of sin with Bathsheba

:2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Something gave David assurance that his son was in heaven or David himself planned on going to hell.
 
Holy Mole said:
David spoke of his dead son conceived in sin with Bathsheba

:2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Something gave David assurance that his son was in heaven of or David himself planned on going to hell.

On what scripture did David base his assumption? 

I think his baby went to heaven and that's where David met him.  But I don't know if this account about David and his son is a guarantee for all babies.  I sure hope so, especially the aborted unborn.  It seems right to me, and we have a righteous and merciful God. 
 
Castor Muscular said:
Holy Mole said:
Castor Muscular said:
I doubt the age of accountability, but that was one of the better arguments for it.

Even infants (or at least toddlers) know right from wrong, though, so there's a problem with your argument for age 20.

Do you believe young children, even babies go to hell?

No, but I have no scripture for that.  Just God's mercy.

This. 
Holy Mole said:
David spoke of his dead son conceived in and of sin with Bathsheba

:2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Something gave David assurance that his son was in heaven or David himself planned on going to hell.

Or David was talking about death.
 
Castor Muscular said:
Holy Mole said:
David spoke of his dead son conceived in sin with Bathsheba

:2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Something gave David assurance that his son was in heaven of or David himself planned on going to hell.

On what scripture did David base his assumption? 

I think his baby went to heaven and that's where David met him.  But I don't know if this account about David and his son is a guarantee for all babies.  I sure hope so, especially the aborted unborn.  It seems right to me, and we have a righteous and merciful God.

I do not believe David needed a scripture for the assumption as the Spirit moved David to speak the words that were to become scripture.
 
Papabear,
Thanks for posting this.  It's thorough, fair and biblical.  I may save it and use it some day.
 
rsc2a said:
Castor Muscular said:
Holy Mole said:
Castor Muscular said:
I doubt the age of accountability, but that was one of the better arguments for it.

Even infants (or at least toddlers) know right from wrong, though, so there's a problem with your argument for age 20.

Do you believe young children, even babies go to hell?

No, but I have no scripture for that.  Just God's mercy.

This. 
Holy Mole said:
David spoke of his dead son conceived in and of sin with Bathsheba

:2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Something gave David assurance that his son was in heaven or David himself planned on going to hell.

Or David was talking about death.

Generally, those who hold to death without afterlife usually don't think in terms of meeting other souls even with the concept of soul sleep. Those who do believe in after life
are back to the assumptions of heaven or hell, unless they hold to the concept of additional places but then we are really departing from the sound use of scripture.
 
Holy Mole said:
Castor Muscular said:
Holy Mole said:
David spoke of his dead son conceived in sin with Bathsheba

:2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Something gave David assurance that his son was in heaven of or David himself planned on going to hell.

On what scripture did David base his assumption? 

I think his baby went to heaven and that's where David met him.  But I don't know if this account about David and his son is a guarantee for all babies.  I sure hope so, especially the aborted unborn.  It seems right to me, and we have a righteous and merciful God.

I do not believe David needed a scripture for the assumption as the Spirit moved David to speak the words that were to become scripture.

True, but it's a specific account of David and his son.  It's not referencing all babies.  Maybe David knew it applied to all babies, and that's why he said what he did.  But he didn't put it that way. 

Like I said, I believe it, I just don't see solid Scriptural evidence for it.  But then I also believe God saves whomever he wants to save, and they are the elect.  It doesn't depend upon us.  Hence the age of accountability would not factor into salvation anyway, according to my view.  When a baby dies, I believe it is because that baby was among the elect, and God planned it that way. 

This isn't exactly saying what I'm saying, but it does show that God takes people home early in order to protect them from evil. 

Isaiah 57 The righteous perishes,
And no man takes it to heart;
Merciful men are taken away,
While no one considers
That the righteous is taken away from evil.
2 He shall enter into peace;
They shall rest in their beds,
Each one walking in his uprightness.


 
Just a side-thought:  Can you imagine being a baby and growing up in the presence of the Lord in heaven (if it happens that way) instead of the mess here on earth? 
 
Castor Muscular said:
But then I also believe God saves whomever he wants to save, and they are the elect.  It doesn't depend upon us. 

Do you believe a person must have a conversion experience?

Castor Muscular said:
This isn't exactly saying what I'm saying, but it does show that God takes people home early in order to protect them from evil. 

Isaiah 57 The righteous perishes,
And no man takes it to heart;
Merciful men are taken away,
While no one considers
That the righteous is taken away from evil.
2 He shall enter into peace;
They shall rest in their beds,
Each one walking in his uprightness.

King James has "the righteous is taken away from the evil to come."  That is a better reading, indicating that the prophet is not speaking of moral evil, as you appear to be using it.  It is talking of the calamity to come, the "evil" of the coming Babylonian invasion.
 
PappaBear said:
King James has "the righteous is taken away from the evil to come."  That is a better reading, indicating that the prophet is not speaking of moral evil, as you appear to be using it.  It is talking of the calamity to come, the "evil" of the coming Babylonian invasion.

No, "calamity to come" is just how I understood it. 
 
What if any did David know about the afterlife? I don't think folks should be reading a Christian view of the afterlife into a Jewish view of the afterlife...

So my question is what Revelation did the Jews at that time have about the afterlife?
 
You don't want to go overboard with this view, either.  If all babies go to heaven, then that puts a nice spin on abortion.  "I'm not killing my child, I'm saving him the trouble of life and just sending him on an express train to heaven."

Um, no, murder is still wrong. 
 
I never reached the age of accountability.  I can't even balance my checkbook. 
 
PappaBear said:
5) Lastly, God does not condemn without law.

Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Can a child be held accountable for doing good or evil in which he does not even yet possess the capability of knowing good from evil? I trow not.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I have never seen a clear cut case made for there being some "age of accountability". Most cases made are circumstantial at best. Then there's your case.

What you've done is silly and immature. Its really down right childish.

You can not take Romans 5:13 and make of it what you want. If you've studied anything in the book of Romans..... You KNOW Paul talked about Gentiles that "had not the law".... DYING... just like the Jew that had the law. They received the judgement of sin without ever knowing one thing about God's law. Ignorance is not an excuse.... and it doesn't forbear the ultimate judgement of sin.

Also, if you're a student of the Bible, you are well aware that Paul also talked about the Gentiles have NO HOPE and being WITHOUT GOD. Condemnation exists without any knowledge of the law of God.

Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

I assume you have no problem believing that untold billions of Gentiles died without HOPE in God before Christ's death on the cross. BILLIONS. People who never knew one thing about Jehovah.

There is somewhat of a case to be made for the law of conscience. Yet, that law does not set forth the truth of the God of Israel. The law of conscience goes a long way in explaining the various teachings of "God" throughout history. I assume you know our true God is a jealous God. He doesn't accept offerings meant for another.

Then there is the this...

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.


I can honestly say I would love to claim an "age of accountability" to be taught in the Scriptures.... but I can't find it.... In fact, if it wasn't for the teaching of the Scriptures.... I'd be a Universalist.

I agree with CM. We just have to fall back on the mercy of God.  Empathy demands compassion for of all of mankind.



 
Amazing over the years of FFF-dom what gets hashed, re-hashed, and then hashed some more.  This theme is so old it is likely new again.

After all the rhetoric is presented there are only one or two valid conclusions.

What we know: salvation is by grace through faithRom. 3 makes it absolutely clear that all are justified (saved) by faith--there is not another way.

It all comes down to the meaning of original sin--is sin an action or a state of being?  So either:
(1) the pre-born; babies, the young, the mentally handicapped are all doomed to hell because justification is by grace through faith alone;
(2) Or original sin is not what we purport it to be in the greater, general sense of the term.

There really are no other options.
 
Vandal said:
What if any did David know about the afterlife? I don't think folks should be reading a Christian view of the afterlife into a Jewish view of the afterlife...

So my question is what Revelation did the Jews at that time have about the afterlife?


Job 19:Then Job answered and said..................................25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.




PS: Hebrews 11





 
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