The Anti Creed lie of the IFB

[FSSL]

My former pastor would mock those who were educated thus promoting an anti-intellectualism that has permeated many IFB groups for decades.

All the while, he had Statement of Faith for his own church...

IFBs who deny creeds, deny reality. They all have creeds.

Those who say "no creed but Christ" are quoting the father of Liberalism in the 1900s-- Harry Emerson Fosdick.

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

Conservative politics.

Nope. Middle of the road classic liberalism.

Creationism.

Yes, with the understanding that Genesis tells us WHAT God did but does not tell us HOW or WHEN He did it.

Dispensationalism.

Nope. Historic Chilliast.

Single elder pastorate.

Nope. Multiple elders.

Tithing.

Nope. Grace giving.

Tee-totalism.

Nope. Moderation.

Anti-intellectualism.

Nope. Wouldn't even consider ordaining a man to the ministry until he had at least an M.Div.

Rejection of anything culturally newer than the 1950s.

Nope. Love the coffee house type service on Sunday Morning (especially the donuts).

Something between complementarianism and patriarchy.

Nope. Equal partnership.

I'm sure there is more that could be considered non-negotiable in IFB churches.

If you think that is what IFB is all about you have been in the wrong IFB churches your entire life! LOL!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Anti-intellectualism.

Nope. Wouldn't even consider ordaining a man to the ministry until he had at least an M.Div.

So, if the Apostles were alive today, they couldn't be involved in your ministry. 

 

[FSSL]

So, if the Apostles were alive today, they couldn't be involved in your ministry.

I am with Tom on this one.

A B.W.C. degree is much greater than a Ph.D. in any institution.



























BWC = Been with Christ

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

So, if the Apostles were alive today, they couldn't be involved in your ministry.

Paul was a "doctor of the law" earned at the Gamaliel School of Theology then spent 3 years in the seminary in the wilderness earning his M.Div. directly from the Master.

The others were taught by Jesus for 3.5 years. It takes 3 years to earn an M.Div.

Do you really think Jesus was an incompetent Teacher?

 

[Izdaari]

I'm not Baptist. We Episcopalians usually say the Nicene Creed every Sunday.

 

[Bob H]

IFBs of the last 40 years tend to be anti-intellectual......

You can't prove that. I tend not to find that to be true. One may find a few but there's a few in EVERY crowd.

 

[Bo]

Conservative politics.

Nope. Middle of the road classic liberalism.

Creationism.

Yes, with the understanding that Genesis tells us WHAT God did but does not tell us HOW or WHEN He did it.

Dispensationalism.

Nope. Historic Chilliast.

Single elder pastorate.

Nope. Multiple elders.

Tithing.

Nope. Grace giving.

Tee-totalism.

Nope. Moderation.

Anti-intellectualism.

Nope. Wouldn't even consider ordaining a man to the ministry until he had at least an M.Div.

Rejection of anything culturally newer than the 1950s.

Nope. Love the coffee house type service on Sunday Morning (especially the donuts).

Something between complementarianism and patriarchy.

Nope. Equal partnership.

I'm sure there is more that could be considered non-negotiable in IFB churches.

If you think that is what IFB is all about you have been in the wrong IFB churches your entire life! LOL!

I believe the bible is quite clear that Creation was done in 6 literal days....and the jewish calendar is roughly between 5 and 6 thousand years.....and it goes back to creation...(and the jews are very VERY exceptionally good at keeping up with their history)....and following what we know bout when people in the bible were living....and the timelines that are told in the bible....we know that it was just shy of 6000 years ago that God created the world...

 

[FSSL]

IFBs of the last 40 years tend to be anti-intellectual......

You can't prove that. I tend not to find that to be true. One may find a few but there's a few in EVERY crowd.

IFB seminaries struggle to exist. The profs, in those seminaries, typically get their education outside of IFBdom because there is a dearth of qualified academics within the IFB realm.

The latest IFB seminaries to spring up the last decade have MDIV and DMIN-level profs just to put together a program.

These seminaries struggle because students who graduate from IFB colleges usually end their education with a BS. The brightest among the IFBs seek their education from the Southern Baptists, Trinity International and Westminster.

There is the proof...

 

[bgwilkinson]

Conservative politics.

Nope. Middle of the road classic liberalism.

Creationism.

Yes, with the understanding that Genesis tells us WHAT God did but does not tell us HOW or WHEN He did it.

Dispensationalism.

Nope. Historic Chilliast.

Single elder pastorate.

Nope. Multiple elders.

Tithing.

Nope. Grace giving.

Tee-totalism.

Nope. Moderation.

Anti-intellectualism.

Nope. Wouldn't even consider ordaining a man to the ministry until he had at least an M.Div.

Rejection of anything culturally newer than the 1950s.

Nope. Love the coffee house type service on Sunday Morning (especially the donuts).

Something between complementarianism and patriarchy.

Nope. Equal partnership.

I'm sure there is more that could be considered non-negotiable in IFB churches.

If you think that is what IFB is all about you have been in the wrong IFB churches your entire life! LOL!

I believe the bible is quite clear that Creation was done in 6 literal days....and the jewish calendar is roughly between 5 and 6 thousand years.....and it goes back to creation...(and the jews are very VERY exceptionally good at keeping up with their history)....and following what we know bout when people in the bible were living....and the timelines that are told in the bible....we know that it was just shy of 6000 years ago that God created the world...

Many have that view.

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

I believe the bible is quite clear that Creation was done in 6 literal days.

So do I.

...and the jewish calendar is roughly between 5 and 6 thousand years.....and it goes back to creation...(and the jews are very VERY exceptionally good at keeping up with their history)....and following what we know bout when people in the bible were living....and the timelines that are told in the bible....we know that it was just shy of 6000 years ago that God created the world...

And that creates a problem. The problem is that the genealogies found in the Old Testament are not a closed father > son relationship as both the Jews and Bishop Ussher assumed.

Matthew?s record of Christ?s genealogy is probably the most obvious. Matthew 1:8 states that Joram was the father of Uzziah, yet 1 Chronicles 3:11?14 reveals that Joram was actually the great-grandfather of Uzziah (a.k.a. Azariah).

That is the error Bishop Ussher made when he added up the ages of the genealogies and came up with creation in 4004 BC.

If we look at just the obvious example above we see not just 1 generation, but three generations represented by only one in the genealogies.

Bear in mind the "Table of Nations" found in Genesis 10 is not strictly a genealogy but an ethnography.

In Genesis 11:10-20, as is common in ancient genealogies, it is apparent that this genealogy contains gaps. If it were precisely sequential the events of chapters 9-11 would cover less than three centuries, all of Abraham?s ancestors would have been still living when he was born, and Shem would outlive Abraham by 14 years. The purpose of this genealogy is to record the advances of the messianic line (IE, as I said above, an ethnography not a genealogy) not to add up the years to "prove" the date of creation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I believe the bible is quite clear that Creation was done in 6 literal days.

So do I.

...and the jewish calendar is roughly between 5 and 6 thousand years.....and it goes back to creation...(and the jews are very VERY exceptionally good at keeping up with their history)....and following what we know bout when people in the bible were living....and the timelines that are told in the bible....we know that it was just shy of 6000 years ago that God created the world...

And that creates a problem. The problem is that the genealogies found in the Old Testament are not a closed father > son relationship as both the Jews and Bishop Ussher assumed.

Matthew?s record of Christ?s genealogy is probably the most obvious. Matthew 1:8 states that Joram was the father of Uzziah, yet 1 Chronicles 3:11?14 reveals that Joram was actually the great-grandfather of Uzziah (a.k.a. Azariah).

That is the error Bishop Ussher made when he added up the ages of the genealogies and came up with creation in 4004 BC.

If we look at just the obvious example above we see not just 1 generation, but three generations represented by only one in the genealogies.

Bear in mind the "Table of Nations" found in Genesis 10 is not strictly a genealogy but an ethnography.

In Genesis 11:10-20, as is common in ancient genealogies, it is apparent that this genealogy contains gaps. If it were precisely sequential the events of chapters 9-11 would cover less than three centuries, all of Abraham?s ancestors would have been still living when he was born, and Shem would outlive Abraham by 14 years. The purpose of this genealogy is to record the advances of the messianic line (IE, as I said above, an ethnography not a genealogy) not to add up the years to "prove" the date of creation.

The LXX deals with some of this. Which makes it a rather indispensable biblical text.

There is very little doubt that some of the genealogical lists found in the Scriptures are problematic. Misusing these issues so as to expanding them to include 1000s of years previously undetermined in the timeline of the Scriptures is rather difficult to do and keep a "straight face".

 

[Bo]

I believe the bible is quite clear that Creation was done in 6 literal days.

So do I.

...and the jewish calendar is roughly between 5 and 6 thousand years.....and it goes back to creation...(and the jews are very VERY exceptionally good at keeping up with their history)....and following what we know bout when people in the bible were living....and the timelines that are told in the bible....we know that it was just shy of 6000 years ago that God created the world...

And that creates a problem. The problem is that the genealogies found in the Old Testament are not a closed father > son relationship as both the Jews and Bishop Ussher assumed.

Matthew?s record of Christ?s genealogy is probably the most obvious. Matthew 1:8 states that Joram was the father of Uzziah, yet 1 Chronicles 3:11?14 reveals that Joram was actually the great-grandfather of Uzziah (a.k.a. Azariah).

That is the error Bishop Ussher made when he added up the ages of the genealogies and came up with creation in 4004 BC.

If we look at just the obvious example above we see not just 1 generation, but three generations represented by only one in the genealogies.

Bear in mind the "Table of Nations" found in Genesis 10 is not strictly a genealogy but an ethnography.

In Genesis 11:10-20, as is common in ancient genealogies, it is apparent that this genealogy contains gaps. If it were precisely sequential the events of chapters 9-11 would cover less than three centuries, all of Abraham?s ancestors would have been still living when he was born, and Shem would outlive Abraham by 14 years. The purpose of this genealogy is to record the advances of the messianic line (IE, as I said above, an ethnography not a genealogy) not to add up the years to "prove" the date of creation.

The LXX deals with some of this. Which makes it a rather indispensable biblical text.

There is very little doubt that some of the genealogical lists found in the Scriptures are problematic. Misusing these issues so as to expanding them to include 1000s of years previously undetermined in the timeline of the Scriptures is rather difficult to do and keep a "straight face".

with the timelines being taken as sound that are in Genesis.....then it would put Noahs dad being alive at the same time as Adam.  And biblically I don't see a problem with that being the number of years people were living at this time.  If there are any generations missing (which I don't personally believe to be true because I believe God would give us a 100% complete bible....but I admit I cannot PROVE 100% that im correct) I highly doubt it would give way to the "millions of years" propaganda that we see bein shoved at people today....maybe a few hundred or so given the age that people lived in those days....

not trying to say AT ALL that you support the "millions of years" idea...you never said you did

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Bo]...which I don't personally believe to be true because I believe God would give us a 100% complete bible...[/quote]

He didn't give one to the Hebrew people...

 

[Bo]

[quote author=Bo]...which I don't personally believe to be true because I believe God would give us a 100% complete bible...

He didn't give one to the Hebrew people...
[/quote]
beyond the "do not add to or take away"  I believe it is complete now :-D

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Bo]...which I don't personally believe to be true because I believe God would give us a 100% complete bible...

He didn't give one to the Hebrew people...

beyond the "do not add to or take away"  I believe it is complete now :-D
[/quote]

Do you mean Deuteronomy 4:2?

You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I believe the bible is quite clear that Creation was done in 6 literal days.

So do I.

...and the jewish calendar is roughly between 5 and 6 thousand years.....and it goes back to creation...(and the jews are very VERY exceptionally good at keeping up with their history)....and following what we know bout when people in the bible were living....and the timelines that are told in the bible....we know that it was just shy of 6000 years ago that God created the world...

And that creates a problem. The problem is that the genealogies found in the Old Testament are not a closed father > son relationship as both the Jews and Bishop Ussher assumed.

Matthew?s record of Christ?s genealogy is probably the most obvious. Matthew 1:8 states that Joram was the father of Uzziah, yet 1 Chronicles 3:11?14 reveals that Joram was actually the great-grandfather of Uzziah (a.k.a. Azariah).

That is the error Bishop Ussher made when he added up the ages of the genealogies and came up with creation in 4004 BC.

If we look at just the obvious example above we see not just 1 generation, but three generations represented by only one in the genealogies.

Bear in mind the "Table of Nations" found in Genesis 10 is not strictly a genealogy but an ethnography.

In Genesis 11:10-20, as is common in ancient genealogies, it is apparent that this genealogy contains gaps. If it were precisely sequential the events of chapters 9-11 would cover less than three centuries, all of Abraham?s ancestors would have been still living when he was born, and Shem would outlive Abraham by 14 years. The purpose of this genealogy is to record the advances of the messianic line (IE, as I said above, an ethnography not a genealogy) not to add up the years to "prove" the date of creation.

The LXX deals with some of this. Which makes it a rather indispensable biblical text.

There is very little doubt that some of the genealogical lists found in the Scriptures are problematic. Misusing these issues so as to expanding them to include 1000s of years previously undetermined in the timeline of the Scriptures is rather difficult to do and keep a "straight face".

with the timelines being taken as sound that are in Genesis.....then it would put Noahs dad being alive at the same time as Adam.  And biblically I don't see a problem with that being the number of years people were living at this time.  If there are any generations missing (which I don't personally believe to be true because I believe God would give us a 100% complete bible....but I admit I cannot PROVE 100% that im correct) I highly doubt it would give way to the "millions of years" propaganda that we see bein shoved at people today....maybe a few hundred or so given the age that people lived in those days....

not trying to say AT ALL that you support the "millions of years" idea...you never said you did

Yes. Adam lived during the time of Enoch. One of the reasons you find Enoch being a light in the midst of a dark and fallen world. A Godly heritage still remembered through Adam. The very man that experienced the "breath of God".

No. I do not buy into "millions of years" in creation. I have my own version of the "gap theory". Though it really isn't based on a gap between verse 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. I simply believe Genesis 1:1 doesn't deal with the original creation of the earth but rather "in the beginning" deals with God's creative action in bring about the rule of mankind upon the Earth....or the original creation of man.

 

[Izdaari]

[quote author=Bo]...which I don't personally believe to be true because I believe God would give us a 100% complete bible...

He didn't give one to the Hebrew people...
[/quote]

No indeed. I believe the Bible is complete in that it has everything in it that God intended to be in it.
But it doesn't contain everything that God knows, or even everything that we need to know.
It seems clear that He intended us to figure some things out for ourselves.
Like a good parent, if you think about it. We don't just tell our kids all the answers. We leave a lot for them to work out.

 

[Bo]

[quote author=Bo]...which I don't personally believe to be true because I believe God would give us a 100% complete bible...

He didn't give one to the Hebrew people...

No indeed. I believe the Bible is complete in that it has everything in it that God intended to be in it.
But it doesn't contain everything that God knows, or even everything that we need to know.
It seems clear that He intended us to figure some things out for ourselves.
Like a good parent, if you think about it. We don't just tell our kids all the answers. We leave a lot for them to work out.
[/quote]

^^^^  I like this

 

[PappaBear]

So, you believe the man who said "Sola Scriptura" was an IFB?!?

I kind of place you in the "Solum Patres" camp.  Those who seem to consistently elevate their creeds and patristic writings far above the Word of God.

Baptist history has long been filled with teaching the priesthood of the believer and the freedom of conscience.  That is not a uniquely IFB thing.  But creedalism lies in direct opposition to both of those Baptist distinctives by attempting to force and demand adherence to certain humanist teachings.

We don't need the Calvinists to ram their forced interpretations down our throats or burn us at the stake for disagreeing a' la' Michael Servetus (His ashes still cry out!).  According to the word of God, we still have God to guide us.

John 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Somehow, going over the Westminster shorter catechism or the London Baptist Confession is what our Lord had in mind with that.