The Doctrine of Complete Dispensationalism (Refining it Down)

Twisted

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No, Catholics have traditionally believed in Perseverance of the Saints. I would know, my Dad is Catholic and I grew up attending mass
on some Sundays and Protestant services on others (my Mom is Protestant). I've a keen understanding of both systems since childhood,
whereas most only have an understanding of one and an incomplete interpretation of the other that they learned from their biased
denominational defense apologetics.

Catholics even recite this many times during mass: "We believe in the Perseverance of the Saints".

Calvin simply took Perseverance of the Saints and redefined it using the hasty generalization system of axioms that I just described
in post #19, to imply that all saints will persevere to the end. Catholics have always believed that saints must persevere to the end,
however there are many writings and debates where Catholics have clearly stated God will not force them to, and the apostasy of
a believer is possible.

Catholics certainly believe perseverance to the end is necessary, and this is an obvious component of their works salvation doctrine,
as scripture clearly calls perseverance a work; laboring.

Calvin took this concept and combined it with justification by faith, meaning he had to force all who were justified to also persevere
as an act predestined and controlled by God otherwise this would obviously be works salvation (which it is: Calvin just did backflips
on fallacies to reinforce his axioms). Since Non-Catholics have historically believed that works salvation is heresy, Calvin got around
this by dividing salvation into 2 parts:
justification and his once again hasty generalization interpretation of God-controlled sanctification
(which sanctification is actually 3 parts, 2 parts God, 1 part man, but Calvin lazily conglomerated it all into 1: See UGC Bible Study #2 on
Sanctification).

This is how "Reformers" get around being labeled works salvationists; they say "Oh, justification is by faith alone... but perseverance
and "sanctification" (their conglomerated interpretation of sanctification) are the absolute byproduct whereby works will follow to the end
of your final salvation, but God will force this perseverance in works to happen once you get justified." Such is a quagmire of fallacies.
Any logician who wasn't brainwashed and indoctrinated into this system will concur: this is works salvation.
I've never heard this term used by Catholics, but admit I've never looked for it in Catholic teachings.

I do know that no Catholic can claim to know where he is going when he dies, as that is the "sin of presumption".

So they might quote the words, but I have a hard time believing they understand it as we would understand it.

I'll have to look more into it. (where's my catechism?)
 

Twisted

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No, Catholics have traditionally believed in Perseverance of the Saints.
I've looked in both of my editions of the Catechism and the word "Perseverance" does not appear in either.
 

Ransom

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No, Catholics have traditionally believed in Perseverance of the Saints. I would know, my Dad is Catholic
Well, there it is.

On the topic of the Catholic doctrine of perseverence, I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church--an official document of the church, recommended by the then-Pope, John Paul II, in an apostolic constitution (the most important kind of papal pronunciation) , as "a sure norm for teaching the faith." Both documents, the Catechism and Fidei depositum, are readable on the Vatican's Web site.

Published by the church, approved and promoted by the Pope, and published on the church's official Web site. One would think you can't get more authoritative than that.

But no.

See, one of the UGC Wonder Twins has a dad. Who is Catholic.

No doubt he knows better than some stupid catechism. In fact, I'll bet, right this very minute, the UGC Wonder Dad is rarin to "straighten out" the Magisterium, the Pope, the Catechism, and all that other papal bull.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why the UGC Wonder Twins (and their "dad") are a load of barking moonbats.
 

Twisted

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I've looked in both of my editions of the Catechism and the word "Perseverance" does not appear in either.
Ah! Perseverance pays off! I found the word used in my copy of "The New St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism", printed 1969.

Under Lesson 477 (page 226) entitled: How Should We Pray?

Point # 5 is: "with perseverance". The index defines it as, "continuous performance of a good act despite great difficulty".
 

Twisted

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Well, there it is.

On the topic of the Catholic doctrine of perseverence, I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church--an official document of the church, recommended by the then-Pope, John Paul II,
Where? It's not listed in the index. Give me the subject/page # where it's at.
 

Ransom

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Where? It's not listed in the index. Give me the subject/page # where it's at.
There are multiple entries under "Perseverance" in the index of the online edition. The relevant one is paragraph 2016 (part of a larger section beginning with paragraph 1987):

The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus. Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Source, emphasis in original)​
 
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Ransom

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Here, this analogy will clear it up:
Thank you for the reminder that you are too moronic to tell the difference between a word that Calvin didn't invent, and a theological system that Calvin didn't invent.
 

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Augustine before Calvin, and the Catholic Council of Trent:

"The first extensive discussion of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is found in Augustine's Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance, written in A.D. 428 or 429 in the context of the controversies with Pelagius on the issues of grace, original sin, and predestination. [1] At the very outset Augustine affirms the grace of God as the ultimate basis for the believer's final perseverance...

...It is clear for Augustine, based on his understanding of the Pauline texts in Romans, that God's elect will certainly persevere to the end and attain eternal salvation.

Unlike Calvin and those in the later Reformed tradition, however, Augustine does not believe that the Christian can in this life know with infallible certitude
that he is in fact among the elect and that he will finally persevere. According to Augustine "it is uncertain whether anyone has received this gift so long as he is still alive." ...Augustine's understanding of perseverance, then, reflects his understanding of the eternal predestination of God, the warning passages addressed to believers in the NT, and his sacramental theology of grace and baptismal regeneration. He held that God's elect will certainly persevere but that one's election could not be infallibly known in this life -- and that in fact one's justification and baptismal regeneration could be rejected and lost through sin and unbelief. Augustine's understanding set the parameters for Aquinas, for the Council of Trent, and for the Roman Catholic tradition generally down to the present day."


-The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine by John Jefferson Davis
Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society [JETS] 34/2 (June 1991) p. 213-228

Source:
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/a133.htm
 

Ransom

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Augustine before Calvin, and the Catholic Council of Trent:
"And that's why Calvin invented the TULIP acronym." - UGC's dad, probably
 

Twisted

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There are multiple entries under "Perseverance" in the index of the online edition. The relevant one is paragraph 2016 (part of a larger section beginning with paragraph 1987):

The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus. Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Source, emphasis in original)​
Thanks. Of course, the keyword is "final", and only if there are "good works". Typical Roman word play.
 
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