The Four Gospels mentioned in the New Testament

[Biblebeliever]

Was not Abraham's Bosom and Paradise the same place?

Well I used to think that it was the same place. But I am starting to believe that paradise is one compartment while Abraham's bosom is another compartment.

I say that because when Jesus Christ granted salvation to the repentant thief on the cross, he said to him that today he would be with Him in paradise. He did not mention Abraham's bosom. The repentant thief was a Gentile. Very interesting.

Notice also Matthew 27:51-53:


Matthew 27:51-53
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


The passage said that many bodies of the saints which slept arose. Notice that it does not say all the bodies of the saints.

Jesus went to Paradise. But the Bible does not indicate if he also went to Abraham's bosom or not.

Again, this is very interesting. Because when we consider this, this could possibly indicate that Old Testament saved Jews such as Abraham, David, Moses, etc. may still be in Abraham's bosom, and if this is so, which it is quite likely, then that would also mean that the Jews that are killed in the time of Jacob's trouble (tribulation period) will also go to Abraham's bosom. I am only beginning to study this particular subject of there being a distinction between Abraham's bosom and Paradise. And this particular study within the Dispensations and Covenants is incredible.

 

[christundivided]

Utter stupidity. The different between the OT and the NT is........A COVENANT.

Not a dispensation.

BB is a total buffoon. He's studied Ruckman. He hasn't studied the topic. If your primary source are bat dung crazy KJVOist....... then I don't see how you can believe "he's studied the topic".  He refuses to give an overall perspective of the his belief. He simply "divides"... :divides... and divides some more. When the buffoon finds something he can't explain.... its a "different dispensation". It doesn't matter that his "dispensation" over lap. It doesn't matter that his "dispensations" actually ignore the "Grace of God". NO. I'd say he hasn't studied it much at all.

You're obviously sympathetic to the teaching. Do you follow "Ruckman"? I'm pretty sure you're a KJVOist hack yourself.

First of all, you are a moron.  You can't discuss a topic without slandering and name calling.  Yes, I called you a moron, and yes, I realize that is name calling.  I do not follow Ruckman.  I will say that the way you respond to posts reminds me of the way Ruckman would respond.

Poor bitty little baby....... I am nothing like Ruckman. Call me a moron all you want. I can take it. I'll not cry about it and carry my itty bitty feelings on my shoulder...

Do you realize that some dispensationalist make the divisions at the different COVENANTS?  By that definition, you are a dispensationalist.  I do not know Biblebeliever.  I have read his thoughts on this topic with interest.  I am not in agreement with all of his thoughts, but I am taking a look at them.  While you are foaming at the mouth and saying nothing, he is using Scripture and reason (the way he feels they should be interpreted) to eat your lunch. 

You are really lost in this......He hasn't ate anyone's lunch. The only reason you are supporting him is because is a rabid KJVOist NUT JOB... like yourself. You're both bat dung crazy. Get it? Anyone... with any sense at all.... knows that BB is a total buffoon.

You want to hear what he has to say..... because you believe just like he believes. You're both buffoons. You want proof?

Here lets review something you just said..

Do you realize that some dispensationalist make the divisions at the different COVENANTS?  By that definition, you are a dispensationalist.

Have you ever heard the term "New Covenant Theology"? or Maybe "Covenant Theology"? Both present a systematic view of theology centered around explaining the various "covenants" in the Scriptures. Dispensationist do the same. The very fact you said....

"divisions at the different COVENANTS" makes anyone a "dispensationist"....... proves your total buffoonery. You have not a single ounce of understand about the subject. Not one. Grow up and the kids on the play ground won't call you names....

I would say that you find many more things in Scripture that you explain away to support your reasoning than Biblebeliever.  Again, I am asking questions to see both sides of the coin.

No you're not. We've had this discussion before and you walked away from it. You don't want to hear both sides. You never have. I don't believe your lies.

 

[RAIDER]

Was not Abraham's Bosom and Paradise the same place?

Well I used to think that it was the same place. But I am starting to believe that paradise is one compartment while Abraham's bosom is another compartment.

I say that because when Jesus Christ granted salvation to the repentant thief on the cross, he said to him that today he would be with Him in paradise. He did not mention Abraham's bosom. The repentant thief was a Gentile. Very interesting.

Notice also Matthew 27:51-53:


Matthew 27:51-53
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


The passage said that many bodies of the saints which slept arose. Notice that it does not say all the bodies of the saints.

Jesus went to Paradise. But the Bible does not indicate if he also went to Abraham's bosom or not.

Again, this is very interesting. Because when we consider this, this could possibly indicate that Old Testament saved Jews such as Abraham, David, Moses, etc. may still be in Abraham's bosom, and if this is so, which it is quite likely, then that would also mean that the Jews that are killed in the time of Jacob's trouble (tribulation period) will also go to Abraham's bosom. I am only beginning to study this particular subject of there being a distinction between Abraham's bosom and Paradise. And this particular study within the Dispensations and Covenants is incredible.

I have always considered "Abraham's bosom" and "Paradise" to be synonymous.  After Christ's death some were allowed to rise and go into Jerusalem while all were taken to Heaven.  After all, they were in this temporary holding place waiting for the ultimate sacrifice to be paid so they could go to Heaven. 

BTW, just a thought.  If there is no merit in any dispensational thought pattern, why did the OT saints not go directly to Heaven?

 

[christundivided]

The passage said that many bodies of the saints which slept arose. Notice that it does not say all the bodies of the saints.

Jesus went to Paradise. But the Bible does not indicate if he also went to Abraham's bosom or not.

Again, this is very interesting. Because when we consider this, this could possibly indicate that Old Testament saved Jews such as Abraham, David, Moses, etc. may still be in Abraham's bosom, and if this is so, which it is quite likely, then that would also mean that the Jews that are killed in the time of Jacob's trouble (tribulation period) will also go to Abraham's bosom. I am only beginning to study this particular subject of there being a distinction between Abraham's bosom and Paradise. And this particular study within the Dispensations and Covenants is incredible.

You've crapped yourself. You have a laid a giant turd and sit right down in it.

You are honestly saying.... that the OT saints are still confined in "Abraham's bosom.....

Pray tell.... Just where is Jesus in all of this? Is He with the saints waiting for Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, and everyone else to find their way out to Him? Is this a game of hiding seek where the Master shows Himself to one group of people that he really likes more than the other group of people?

 

[prophet]

The passage said that many bodies of the saints which slept arose. Notice that it does not say all the bodies of the saints.

Jesus went to Paradise. But the Bible does not indicate if he also went to Abraham's bosom or not.

Again, this is very interesting. Because when we consider this, this could possibly indicate that Old Testament saved Jews such as Abraham, David, Moses, etc. may still be in Abraham's bosom, and if this is so, which it is quite likely, then that would also mean that the Jews that are killed in the time of Jacob's trouble (tribulation period) will also go to Abraham's bosom. I am only beginning to study this particular subject of there being a distinction between Abraham's bosom and Paradise. And this particular study within the Dispensations and Covenants is incredible.

You've crapped yourself. You have a laid a giant turd and sit right down in it.

You are honestly saying.... that the OT saints are still confined in "Abraham's bosom.....

Pray tell.... Just where is Jesus in all of this? Is He with the saints waiting for Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, and everyone else to find their way out to Him? Is this a game of hiding seek where the Master shows Himself to one group of people that he really likes more than the other group of people?

This was way over the top, but that's what wrongly dividing, Darby style, begets.
Next BB will start a new cult , like Heaven's Gate. 
They can all put on sandals and robes, and wait for the cRapture, where they will stuff themselves while  Jacob's Trouble drags on for the poor Jews who are now saved, but abiding under the Wrath of God.
Eventually,  Abraham, who is the father of the faithful Gentiles, but is uninvited to his kids' wedding, will be let out to inherit the newly burnt Earth.

Anishinaabe

 

[BALAAM]

This is exactly why men do not like to ask for directions. I would hate to have to ask bb if I should turn left to Chicago and right to Indy. I would probably end up in Fresno. BB, Personally I think that you are a sincere Christian who loves the Lord. But personally, I also think you are a nut.

 

[Biblebeliever]

I have always considered "Abraham's bosom" and "Paradise" to be synonymous.

So did I Raider. But I am starting to look into this particular subject and to see if that is the case or not.

After Christ's death some were allowed to rise and go into Jerusalem while all were taken to Heaven. 

Well keep in mind Raider that the text does not say that all bodies of the saints arose, it just says that many bodies of the saints which slept arose.

After all, they were in this temporary holding place waiting for the ultimate sacrifice to be paid so they could go to Heaven. 

Indeed, very true.

Now again, this particular issue of a possible distinction between paradise and Abraham's bosom is not something I am going to be too adamant about since I am only beginning to study this particular issue.

BTW, just a thought.  If there is no merit in any dispensational thought pattern, why did the OT saints not go directly to Heaven?

Good question Raider. I believe from what the Bible teaches, that the Old Testament saints did not yet go to Heaven because while they had received remission and forgiveness for their sins, they still had not yet received redemption for them. The redemption for their sins would only come by the precious blood atonement of Christ at Calvary later on (See Rom. 3:25).

And so since back then their sins had not yet been taken away, they also had not yet been cleared from their guilt. Again; while they were forgiven, they were not yet redeemed or justified. And I believe that it was for this reason that the Old Testament saints did not go to Heaven at their death. 

 

[Biblebeliever]

You are honestly saying.... that the OT saints are still confined in "Abraham's bosom.....

Pray tell.... Just where is Jesus in all of this? Is He with the saints waiting for Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, and everyone else to find their way out to Him? Is this a game of hiding seek where the Master shows Himself to one group of people that he really likes more than the other group of people?

All I am saying is that Jesus told the repentant theif that he was going to be in Paradise with him. He did not say Abraham's bosom. Now what I used to do was I would just assume that Abraham's bosom and Paradise were the same place. But now I am just choosing to take it as though they were and are two different compartments. Why? Well because they are spelled differently.

In the account of the Rich man and Lazarus, Jesus does not say that the angels carried him (Lazarus) to paradise. But that they carried him to Abraham's bosom.

Now could Paradise and Abraham's bosom be the exact same place? Possibly. I am not yet ruling that out as a possibility. At least not yet. I am still looking further into this matter.

 

[Biblebeliever]

They can all put on sandals and robes, and wait for the cRapture,

The Rapture is going to happen. The King James Holy Bible teaches a Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.

where they will stuff themselves while  Jacob's Trouble drags on for the poor Jews who are now saved, but abiding under the Wrath of God.

Anishinaabe, a Jew who is saved today is a born again Christian (Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11). IN the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

Also, if a Jew is saved today, he is not abiding under the wrath of God. You should know this already. A person who is saved (Jew or Gentile) has passed from death unto life (John 5:24 & 1 John 3:14). That person is not abiding under the wrath of God since he is in Christ. He has not been appointed to God's wrath (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9).

The time of Jacob's trouble is for unbelieving Israel. It is to bring them as a Nation into correction (See Jer. 30:11).

 

[prophet]

They can all put on sandals and robes, and wait for the cRapture,

The Rapture is going to happen. The King James Holy Bible teaches a Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.

where they will stuff themselves while  Jacob's Trouble drags on for the poor Jews who are now saved, but abiding under the Wrath of God.

Anishinaabe, a Jew who is saved today is a born again Christian (Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11). IN the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

Also, if a Jew is saved today, he is not abiding under the wrath of God. You should know this already. A person who is saved (Jew or Gentile) has passed from death unto life (John 5:24 & 1 John 3:14). That person is not abiding under the wrath of God since he is in Christ. He has not been appointed to God's wrath (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9).

The time of Jacob's trouble is for unbelieving Israel. It is to bring them as a Nation into correction (See Jer. 30:11).

Not one single soul will be brought into Correction, at this time.

Rev 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Dan 7:21
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Rev 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The Saints are put through tribulation, then the unbelievers face God's Wrath.

Only 144,000 Virgin men of the Jews will be set apart by God.

From them, He will restore Israel...in the Millennium.

Anishinaabe

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The Four Gospels mentioned in the New Testament

I know this one.  It's Matthew, Manny, Moe and Jack, right?

Oh, for the benefit of Ransom, that's "Matthieu, Manet, Meaux et Jacques", eh?

 

[RAIDER]

I believe from what the Bible teaches, that the Old Testament saints did not yet go to Heaven because while they had received remission and forgiveness for their sins, they still had not yet received redemption for them. The redemption for their sins would only come by the precious blood atonement of Christ at Calvary later on (See Rom. 3:25).

And so since back then their sins had not yet been taken away, they also had not yet been cleared from their guilt. Again; while they were forgiven, they were not yet redeemed or justified. And I believe that it was for this reason that the Old Testament saints did not go to Heaven at their death.

Your post is the very reason that I believe Paradise and Abraham's Bosom to be the same place.  When Christ died on Calvary the redemption was paid with the blood atonement.  There would be no need for another "compartment" where people had to wait for another event.  The price had been paid.

 

[prophet]

I believe from what the Bible teaches, that the Old Testament saints did not yet go to Heaven because while they had received remission and forgiveness for their sins, they still had not yet received redemption for them. The redemption for their sins would only come by the precious blood atonement of Christ at Calvary later on (See Rom. 3:25).

And so since back then their sins had not yet been taken away, they also had not yet been cleared from their guilt. Again; while they were forgiven, they were not yet redeemed or justified. And I believe that it was for this reason that the Old Testament saints did not go to Heaven at their death.

Your post is the very reason that I believe Paradise and Abraham's Bosom to be the same place.  When Christ died on Calvary the redemption was paid with the blood atonement.  There would be no need for another "compartment" where people had to wait for another event.  The price had been paid.

Very good.  Next step is to realize that all the redeemed will rise in the same resurrection.

Anishinaabe

 

[RAIDER]

Very good.  Next step is to realize that all the redeemed will rise in the same resurrection.

Anishinaabe
[/quote]

I'm already there!

 

[prophet]

Raider:

"I'm already there!"


prophet:

Kinda goes along with the perspective.

If you have a proper one towards Soteriology, Eschatology should follow.



Anishinaabe

 

[RAIDER]

Raider:

"I'm already there!"


prophet:

Kinda goes along with the perspective.

If you have a proper one towards Soteriology, Eschatology should follow.



Anishinaabe

And now back to our dispensational conversation..........

 

[Biblebeliever]

Not one single soul will be brought into Correction, at this time.

Israel as a Nation will be brought into correction at this time.

Your statement contradicts what is clearly said in Jeremiah 30:11. I suggest you start to believe what the word of God (King James Holy Bible) says.

Rev 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Amen. And this passage here (Rev. 14:9-11) is connected with the everlasting Gospel (Rev. 14:6).

Dan 7:21
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Rev 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The Saints are put through tribulation, then the unbelievers face God's Wrath.

Well the tribulation saints are the ones who are enudring unto the end through all the turmoil and devastation.

Only 144,000 Virgin men of the Jews will be set apart by God.

Only the 144,000 Jews are eternally secure in the time of Jacob's trouble. Everyone else must endure unto the end to be saved (Matt. 24:13-14; Heb. 3:6, 14).

From them, He will restore Israel...in the Millennium.

Anishinaabe

Well all Israel (as a Nation) will be saved  and converted at the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 11:26-27; Jer. 31:31-34; Zech. 12:10-14; Heb. 8:8-13).

 

[Biblebeliever]

Your post is the very reason that I believe Paradise and Abraham's Bosom to be the same place.  When Christ died on Calvary the redemption was paid with the blood atonement.  There would be no need for another "compartment" where people had to wait for another event.  The price had been paid.

You make a good and interesting point there Raider. Thanks for your input, I will consider it as I continue to study into this matter.

 

[BALAAM]

So tell me is this dispensation thing and different plans of salvation something like daylight savings? One day it is this and next day that? Yesterday you were saved by the law and faith but today that is out? Oh sorry dude, salvation by grace through faith expired yesterday! Today it is something different. Inquiring minds want to know. (not really, but my smart aleck comments are just as foolish as these different plans) Kind of reminds me of shopping for health insurance.