The "house of God"

[praise_yeshua]

I follow a IFB preachers on facebook. In the last few years, he has went "rogue" by IFB standards . He's well known in the south and has many followers. I've personally known him for over 20 years. In my opinion, he hasn't gone "rogue" enough. He's really just on the edge. He tends to post some rather good "nuggets" of truth on his facebook page. At times they generate some heated discussions. One of them recently involved talk of the "house of God". A certain fellow IFB "pastor" didn't take kindly to what he said. The preacher I followed appealed to the Greek text of 1 Timothy 3:15  to explain Paul's use of the "house of God". You know a King Jimmie bible thumper didn't take kindly to the reference.

I thought I might start and interesting fight here.....

Just what does the term "house of God" mean/teach in the Scriptures?

So facts from the King Jimmie.....

The phrase is only found 90 times in the KJV in 87 verses. The first mention is found in Genesis 28. The story of "Jacob's ladder". Jacob's dream causes him to call the place "Bethel". Which, by the way, is the reason some like to call their church "Bethel" this and "Bethel" that. When I was a kid. I remember hearing this song about "Jacob's ladder".

[youtube]1cW6Be6yPzo[/youtube]

What do you believe the phrase "house of God" means/teaches"? Let the fighting begin!!!!

 

[rsc2a]

Depends on context.


Fighting averted.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Depends on context.


Fighting averted.

So you voted for both or are you just being obtuse again?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

rsc2a is correct. Paul meant it as a local assembly. Jesus used it ("Father's House") as an eternal destination. He also used it ("Father's House) to mean the local temple at the time.

 

[praise_yeshua]

rsc2a is correct. Paul meant it as a local assembly. Jesus used it ("Father's House") as an eternal destination. He also used it ("Father's House) to mean the local temple at the time.

Are you answering "local assembly"?

Paul was talking about the gathering of the family of God. He wasn't talking about a "local building".

Even the "Temple" was an allusion to the true "house of God" revealed in the NT. God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands. Do you remember those words from anywhere?

 

[rsc2a]

PY: What does this phrase mean?

Me: Depends on the context.

PY: Nuh uh!

 

[praise_yeshua]

PY: What does this phrase mean?

Me: Depends on the context.

PY: Nuh uh!

Yep. Obtuse.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Are you answering "local assembly"?

Paul was talking about the gathering of the family of God. He wasn't talking about a "local building".

Didn't say that Paul mentioned a 'local building' in that passage.

Even the "Temple" was an allusion to the true "house of God" revealed in the NT. God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands. Do you remember those words from anywhere?

Yep. I remember those words. In Acts 17, PAUL mentions it. Jesus called the temple His 'Father's house'. You know, the building that was occupied by among others, "Scribes and Pharisees" - the ones Jesus referred to as the 'sons of hell'. So there you go (again?), believing Paul over Jesus.

With your high esteem of all things Paul, I'm still trying to figure out of you are a Gnostic or a Marcionite. I'm leaning toward the latter.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you answering "local assembly"?

Paul was talking about the gathering of the family of God. He wasn't talking about a "local building".

Didn't say that Paul mentioned a 'local building' in that passage.

Even the "Temple" was an allusion to the true "house of God" revealed in the NT. God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands. Do you remember those words from anywhere?

Yep. I remember those words. In Acts 17, PAUL mentions it. Jesus called the temple His 'Father's house'. You know, the building that was occupied by among others, "Scribes and Pharisees" - the ones Jesus referred to as the 'sons of hell'. So there you go (again?), believing Paul over Jesus.

With your high esteem of all things Paul, I'm still trying to figure out of you are a Gnostic or a Marcionite. I'm leaning toward the latter.

You really have such a hatred for Paul that you ignore the fact that Paul is simply quoting the writings of Isaiah. Have you read Isaiah chapter 66? Paul didn't get what he said out of "thin air".

Jesus did use the phrase "Father's House" when it came to the Temple. Jesus also used the phrase to reference a place externally to anything made with hands. A place Eternal. Jesus referenced the temple in such a manner because this is what the people that heard him could recognize.

Do you believe that Jehovah actually lived in the Temple? Did God, Himself.... abide in the Temple?

God allowed many things to happen that He wasn't particularly fond of....

 

[IFB X-Files]

Do you believe that Jehovah actually lived in the Temple? Did God, Himself.... abide in the Temple?

No, but He sho did visit there from time-to-time.  Sorta like having a cabin down by the lake.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do you believe that Jehovah actually lived in the Temple? Did God, Himself.... abide in the Temple?

No, but He sho did visit there from time-to-time.  Sorta like having a cabin down by the lake.

When did He visit? Do you have His Schedule? Is that what is meant by the phrase "House of God". A place where God sometimes visits?

 

[IFB X-Files]

Do you believe that Jehovah actually lived in the Temple? Did God, Himself.... abide in the Temple?

No, but He sho did visit there from time-to-time.  Sorta like having a cabin down by the lake.

When did He visit? Do you have His Schedule? Is that what is meant by the phrase "House of God". A place where God sometimes visits?

Nope, no schedule.  David believed His glory abode there.  That's good enough for me.  Ps 26:8 LORD, I have loved the habitation of thy house, and the place where thine honour dwelleth.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Do you believe that Jehovah actually lived in the Temple? Did God, Himself.... abide in the Temple?

Yes, I do believe He dwelled in the temple at that time. I believe He also indwelled Jesus.

The presence of God left the temple when it was destroyed by Titus.

II Baruch 8:1-2 about the destruction of the temple:

Now the angels did as he had commanded them, and when they had broken up the corners of the walls, a voice was heard from the interior of the temple, after the wall had fall saying:  'Enter, you enemies,  And come, you adversaries;  For he who kept the house has forsaken (it).'

Tacitus records this:

Contending hosts were seen meeting in the skies, arms flashed, and suddenly the temple was illumined with fire from the clouds. Of a sudden the doors of the shrine opened and a superhuman voice cried: ?The gods are departing?: at the same moment the mighty stir of their going was heard. 2 Few interpreted these omens as fearful; the majority firmly believed that their ancient priestly writings contained the prophecy that this was the very time when the East should grow strong and that men starting from Judea should possess the world. This mysterious prophecy had in reality pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, as is the way of human ambition, interpreted these great destinies in their own favor, and could not be turned to the truth even by adversity. 3 We have heard that the total number of the besieged of every age and both sexes was six hundred thousand: there were arms for all who could use them, and the number ready to fight was larger than could have been anticipated from the total population. Both men and women showed the same determination; and if they were to be forced to change their home, they feared life more than death.

Source

Josephus mentions the Shekinah light within the temple right before its destruction:

Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.

Source

Eusebius said that Christians return to Jerusalem to worship

...at the mount of Olives opposite the city wither the glory [i.e., the Shekinah glory] of the Lord [Yahweh] migrated when it left the former city.

Source

This all fits in because Paul's Gentile companion, Trophimus desecrated the Temple by going where he was not allowed. His desecration (abomination of desolation?) would have caused the temple to be destroyed upon which the physical presence of God had then abandoned. Hence, Jesus' mention of His Father's house would have been literal and not metaphorical.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do you believe that Jehovah actually lived in the Temple? Did God, Himself.... abide in the Temple?

No, but He sho did visit there from time-to-time.  Sorta like having a cabin down by the lake.

When did He visit? Do you have His Schedule? Is that what is meant by the phrase "House of God". A place where God sometimes visits?

Nope, no schedule.  David believed His glory abode there.  That's good enough for me.  Ps 26:8 LORD, I have loved the habitation of thy house, and the place where thine honour dwelleth.

David said a lot of things. I think you greatly miss understood what David said. Lets narrow this down.....

So God's glory "abode" there? Humm....

1. Is that what you're trying to get out of building little temples everywhere?

2. I hope you realize the Temple that Solomon built has long been destroyed. Did God lose his dwelling place?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Did God lose his dwelling place?

"Lose", no. "Left", He did leave one of the places He dwelt (perhaps even more if one thinks of the Ark of the Covenant.)

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do you believe that Jehovah actually lived in the Temple? Did God, Himself.... abide in the Temple?

Yes, I do believe He dwelled in the temple at that time. I believe He also indwelled Jesus.

The presence of God left the temple when it was destroyed by Titus.

II Baruch 8:1-2 about the destruction of the temple:

Now the angels did as he had commanded them, and when they had broken up the corners of the walls, a voice was heard from the interior of the temple, after the wall had fall saying:  'Enter, you enemies,  And come, you adversaries;  For he who kept the house has forsaken (it).'

Well. I've never meet too many people that actually accepted "Baruch" in the canon.

1. Did God lose his dwelling place? Looks like God would have been mad about someone destroying His Dwelling place.

Josephus mentions the Shekinah light within the temple right before its destruction:

The Bible records the "Shekinah" in the Tabernacle. A tent. Does this tell you anything?

This all fits in because Paul's Gentile companion, Trophimus desecrated the Temple by going where he was not allowed. His desecration (abomination of desolation?) would have caused the temple to be destroyed upon which the physical presence of God had then abandoned. Hence, Jesus' mention of His Father's house would have been literal and not metaphorical.

Well that rather odd.... but I'll deal with that later....

Why are you ignoring my reference to Isaiah 66? I know why. Isaiah said that God doesn't dwell in such things. This the very verse mentioned by Stephen in Acts 7

Act 7:48  Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49  Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50  Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51  Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52  Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53  Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Will you also have a problem with Stephen? I've never heard you bash Stephen. I imagine you'll add him to your list????

The prophet Isiash said very clearly that God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands. He didn't dwell in the Temple of Solomon.... nor the other two that stood until their destruction. ( Maybe you didn't know there were three).

God dwells with the heart of His own. The family of God. The House of God. Which is exactly the purposed "allusion" expressed in the phrase "house of God".

 

[praise_yeshua]

Did God lose his dwelling place?

"Lose", no. "Left", He did leave one of the places He dwelt (perhaps even more if one thinks of the Ark of the Covenant.)

Left....

How about "abandoned". Would that be a better description? Surely God didn't get driven from His own house?

Do you believe in the phrase "God with us"? Do you believe in the phrase.... "I will never leave you"?

Do you even realize what you're saying? If such things aren't an "allusion" to what is really intended..... then you have a pretty poor excuse for a god!!!

 

[rsc2a]

Another topic PY knows everything about and anyone who disagrees is just a moron!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Another topic PY knows everything about and anyone who disagrees is just a moron!

False accuser!!!!

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Well. I've never meet too many people that actually accepted "Baruch" in the canon.

Since when does something have to be in biblical canon to be historically accurate?

1. Did God lose his dwelling place? Looks like God would have been mad about someone destroying His Dwelling place.

Well, it had already been prophesied so I doubt He was a bit surprised, much less 'mad'...

The Bible records the "Shekinah" in the Tabernacle. A tent. Does this tell you anything?

In the past:

Now when Solomon had finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the temple. And the priests could not enter the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD?S house (2 Chronicles 7:1-2).

In the future:

Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From his place he shall branch out, and he shall build the temple of the Lord [YEHOVAH]. He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule on his throne; so he shall be a priest on his throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both [YEHOVAH God AND the Messiah] (Zechariah 6:12-13).

Why are you ignoring my reference to Isaiah 66? I know why. Isaiah said that God doesn't dwell in such things. 

Why do you list the chapter and not the verse? Because it isn't there.

This the very verse mentioned by Stephen in Acts 7

Act 7:48  Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49  Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50  Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51  Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52  Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53  Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 

He made a comment then quoted the prophet. His statement about not dwelling in temples was NOT a part of the prophet's quotation.

Will you  also have a problem with Stephen? I've never heard you bash Stephen. I imagine you'll add him to your list????

List of what? People I disagree with? It would be easier to list the people I do agree with: none. Sometimes I even contradict myself.

If I recall correctly, you disagree with Peter's decision to make Mathias the 12th Apostle and claimed he took Scripture out of context to do so. So you disagree with a Jesus-appointed Apostle whereas I disagree with a martyr. Seems we both make relative practice in judgements.

  The prophet Isiash said very clearly that God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands. He didn't dwell in the Temple of Solomon.... nor the other two that stood until their destruction. ( Maybe you didn't know there were three). 

You have yet to prove that from Isaiah's own words.

God dwells with the heart of His own. The family of God. The House of God.

No argument from me. He indwelt Jesus while on earth and the Temple at the same time. He is pretty good at being in more than one place at a time.

Which is exactly the purposed "allusion" expressed in the phrase "house of God".

Again, depends on the context.