The Injustice of Christian Individualism

[The Rogue Tomato]

It's an interesting piece, IMO.  But he makes the classic mistake of naming capitalism as the source of wealth that drives political power.  Anybody who is wealthy wields a disproportionate amount of political clout, including union leaders, who get their wealth from the workers, through a system based on socialist concepts, not capitalism. 

While I question the concept of treating corporations as individuals, you can't treat unions as individuals and then NOT treat corporations as individuals.  That stacks the deck toward socialism. 

Then there are PACs, which represent various interests, not driven by wealthy capitalists.  And so on. 

I know that's not the point of the article.  It's just a pet peeve. 

 

[rsc2a]

And?

You haven't addressed the point, and that is that Jesus was specifically criticizing the Roman economic system, especially in the parable of the rich man and the barns.

Well... I thought I had. I was attempting to say what you posted has nothing to do with an economic system..... Maybe I failed in your eyes.... BUT... Its rather clear that Christ wasn't blasting the economic system itself...... but rather how the individual dealt with their condition with in that system.

Let's look at the parable. A rich man has plenty and decides he needs more, so he builds bigger barns to hold the stuff. He stores up treasure for himself while neglecting those around him. Let's look at the words of Jesus: "good news to the poor...liberty to the captives..."

Now let's consider the economic system at the time. Where, at one time, you had people farming on ancestral land that provided them a living, you now have people working more as tenant-farmers while agriculture was turned into an industry to feed a massive Roman army. The Romans are demanding greater and greater taxes (read: crops), and to enforce this, are building administrative and military strongholds in areas that have never seen them before, for instance just a few short miles from Nazareth.

In addition, the temple priests and administrators (read: Sadducees) are sending people around to make sure the temple is getting its fair share, leaving families with less and less. So much less that they are, in fact, destitute and forced to sell of their ancestral lands and live on them as tenant farmers. Of course, then crops fail or there still isn't enough or whatnot, so they borrow more money from the landowners. Then they owe more, cannot pay it, borrow more, and on and on, until they are deeply, deeply in debt to the landowners trying to pay a debt they will never be able to pay, especially with the Romans and the temple administrators taking 50% or more of what they are growing.

And Jubilee year? Are you kidding? The more influential priests (read: rich) assist in codifying laws that completely ignore any thoughts of Jubilee year. It gets so bad that one of the first things that happens when the temple is seized during one of the rebellions (I believe the Maccabean one, but I could be mistaken) is that the rebels destroy the records of loans, records that are kept at the temple itself. So Jesus starts talking about a rich man who builds bigger barns. He talks about setting captives free. He talks about good news for the poor.

Yes. It is absolutely a critique of the Roman economic system (along with virtually every other economic system that has ever existed), but then I'm assuming you knew all the history I just spelled out, no?

[quote author=christundivided]Are you saying it doesn't have anything to do with how the individual deals with his position in any economic system?

Said no first-century Jew ever.

See also: Gen., Exod, Deut., Isaiah, Jer, Amos, Hosea, Hab, Jonah, Zech, Zeph, Dan, Obad, Mal, Matt, Rom, 1 Pet, Rev, and a bunch of others.

Typical.... The first century "Jew"... Jesus Christ had plenty to say about personal responsibility. Why are you twisting His words?[/quote]

I'm saying I read things with the historical context in mind. I very highly doubt that a first-century Jew is going to even recognize the philosophical arguments you are espousing since those arguments won't rear their heads for another 1700 years. What they will recognize is their hope for a national restoration, a Messiah that will be for all the people, a restored Israel where God reigns from Zion. What they are looking for is the vindication of the faithful when God destroys their enemies. What they acknowledge is punishment by God (first from the Babylonians, folks like Antiochus, and later the Romans) for the sins of the nation as a whole. Or perhaps the Maccabean martyrs who explicitly stated that they were suffering for their country and being killed for the sins of the nation? Or Paul who asked, "Has God rejected His people?" All you have to due is flip through the Prophets in the OT. (I prefer Amos.)

The earliest understandings of the gospel and the Christian faith was first and foremost a corporate salvation for God's people. The church was recognized a called out people, a congregation, a body of believers. Were the individuals within that Body important? Absolutely! Were followers of Jesus called to individual holiness? Without a doubt! But, until very modern times, the focus of our faith has never been on the individual, but on the Body at large.

 

[christundivided]

Let's look at the parable. A rich man has plenty and decides he needs more, so he builds bigger barns to hold the stuff. He stores up treasure for himself while neglecting those around him. Let's look at the words of Jesus: "good news to the poor...liberty to the captives..."

You're being silly. The good news to the poor and liberty to the captive is the same message.....it's is freedom in Christ. It even applies to the rich man who will hear it. Paul was a rich man... it had nothing to do with a call to over throw a economic system.

As typical with you.... you pervert the Gospel.

In addition, the temple priests and administrators (read: Sadducees) are sending people around to make sure the temple is getting its fair share, leaving families with less and less. So much less that they are, in fact, destitute and forced to sell of their ancestral lands and live on them as tenant farmers. Of course, then crops fail or there still isn't enough or whatnot, so they borrow more money from the landowners. Then they owe more, cannot pay it, borrow more, and on and on, until they are deeply, deeply in debt to the landowners trying to pay a debt they will never be able to pay, especially with the Romans and the temple administrators taking 50% or more of what they are growing.

Fair enough. I can't deny that people had it bad during the time of Christ.... Yet, Christ said you have the poor with you always.... Why don't you believe what He said? Take it as prophecy... a promise.

And Jubilee year? Are you kidding? The more influential priests (read: rich) assist in codifying laws that completely ignore any thoughts of Jubilee year. It gets so bad that one of the first things that happens when the temple is seized during one of the rebellions (I believe the Maccabean one, but I could be mistaken) is that the rebels destroy the records of loans, records that are kept at the temple itself. So Jesus starts talking about a rich man who builds bigger barns. He talks about setting captives free. He talks about good news for the poor.

Looks like you've decided to recently read a few history books and it's got you to thinking. Well.... it is a good thing to study... but a bad thing to misapply what you've read.

Again. You pervert the Gospel. You're trying to call for a massive action of people to over throw an particular economic system. You're doing this by perverting the message of the Gospel. You've fallen into the trap of the "social gospel".

By the way.... I was a poor man who was rescued by Christ. I dare say I now make somewhat more than you.... and this has happened under our current economic system. God has always done this at times. His work continues regardless of the economic system.

Yes. It is absolutely a critique of the Roman economic system (along with virtually every other economic system that has ever existed), but then I'm assuming you knew all the history I just spelled out, no?

Well.... some of what you've written is embellished.

The earliest understandings of the gospel and the Christian faith was first and foremost a corporate salvation for God's people. The church was recognized a called out people, a congregation, a body of believers. Were the individuals within that Body important? Absolutely! Were followers of Jesus called to individual holiness? Without a doubt! But, until very modern times, the focus of our faith has never been on the individual, but on the Body at large.

Nonsense. It is impossible not the recognize that the early corporal church.... FAILED. The church itself became corrupt and ended up in apostasy. An apostasy that saw the fracturing of truth and the fellowship of saints.

God has always dealt with the individual and sometimes.... individuals can get along..... but most time. They can't. The strong always end up taking advantage of the weak. It happens in the corporal church too....

 

[rsc2a]

Let's look at the parable. A rich man has plenty and decides he needs more, so he builds bigger barns to hold the stuff. He stores up treasure for himself while neglecting those around him. Let's look at the words of Jesus: "good news to the poor...liberty to the captives..."

You're being silly. The good news to the poor and liberty to the captive is the same message.....it's is freedom in Christ. It even applies to the rich man who will hear it. Paul was a rich man... it had nothing to do with a call to over throw a economic system.

As typical with you.... you pervert the Gospel.

Paul was a rich man? Must be news to the man who had to make tents for a living. As for perverting the gospel, I'd say someone who limits God's redemption to individuals and not to a restored creation, including economic systems, might want to reconsider such an accusation.

[quote author=christundivided]Fair enough. I can't deny that people had it bad during the time of Christ.... Yet, Christ said you have the poor with you always.... Why don't you believe what He said? Take it as prophecy... a promise. [/quote]

You honestly think there will be poor after the Parousia?

[quote author=christundivided]Looks like you've decided to recently read a few history books and it's got you to thinking. Well.... it is a good thing to study... but a bad thing to misapply what you've read. [/quote]

I generally read non-fiction over fiction. My preferences are books that describe cultures and times other than our own, which probably explains why I prefer historical fiction when I do read fiction. So my "study" was nothing more than normal practice.

So, yes, it's a good thing to study. It's a bad thing to completely ignore the historical context when reading ancient texts.

[quote author=christundivided]Again. You pervert the Gospel. You're trying to call for a massive action of people to over throw an particular economic system. You're doing this by perverting the message of the Gospel. You've fallen into the trap of the "social gospel". [/quote]

You appear to have a very limited understanding of "the restoration of all things". (Acts 3:21, Romans 8:21, Eph 1:10, Col 1:20, lots and lots of others) I'll worship the God who heals the sick, feeds the hungry and frees the slave. What is so sad is that you are echoing the very words of people who advocated for slavery, those who actively opposed the church leaders pushing for abolition...and you don't even seem to realize it.

[quote author=christundivided]By the way.... I was a poor man who was rescued by Christ. I dare say I now make somewhat more than you.... and this has happened under our current economic system. God has always done this at times. His work continues regardless of the economic system. [/quote]

To put it quite bluntly, how in the world what my income is? And, again I am amazed: your arrogance knows no limits.

[quote author=christundivided]

Yes. It is absolutely a critique of the Roman economic system (along with virtually every other economic system that has ever existed), but then I'm assuming you knew all the history I just spelled out, no?

Well.... some of what you've written is embellished. [/quote]

Of which you provided no examples...

[quote author=christundivided]

The earliest understandings of the gospel and the Christian faith was first and foremost a corporate salvation for God's people. The church was recognized a called out people, a congregation, a body of believers. Were the individuals within that Body important? Absolutely! Were followers of Jesus called to individual holiness? Without a doubt! But, until very modern times, the focus of our faith has never been on the individual, but on the Body at large.

Nonsense. It is impossible not the recognize that the early corporal church.... FAILED. The church itself became corrupt and ended up in apostasy. An apostasy that saw the fracturing of truth and the fellowship of saints.

God has always dealt with the individual and sometimes.... individuals can get along..... but most time. They can't. The strong always end up taking advantage of the weak. It happens in the corporal church too....[/quote]

And yet you haven't even remotely engaged the Scriptural texts. I listed about two dozen or so that quite explicitly call out for a national punishment and restoration for Israel (along with a host of other nations).

 

[ddgently]

C'mon, rsc2a, stop being such a fourth grader and add some of your own thoughts instead of making me so your book report for you, you typical emergent.

Take care,

FakeRansom

 

[christundivided]

Paul was a rich man? Must be news to the man who had to make tents for a living. As for perverting the gospel, I'd say someone who limits God's redemption to individuals and not to a restored creation, including economic systems, might want to reconsider such an accusation.

You know... I grow tired once again of putting up with your incompetence....

Paul was a no doubt a rather well off Pharisee before his conversion....and the apostles.... AT TIMES.... did not suffer...... and prospered among their new found congregation. This is BASIC 101 church history.

No. I don't believe Christ died to redeem a broken economic system. Sorry if you feel that is somehow a perversion of the Gospel message. Its too bad you're is such a small company...

You honestly think there will be poor after the Parousia?

I'm sure this would depends on what you mean by "the arrival". I have no earthly idea what you believe about the return of Christ.

IF... you believe in an earthly return and physical rule of Christ upon the earth... Then yes. I think your view demands the poor still exists. Maybe you would like to pay attention to the fact such beliefs teach that Satan will be loosed and go forth to deceive those that dwell on the earth... at the end of the "millennial reign."..... So much for an "utopian view" of the Millennial.

You appear to have a very limited understanding of "the restoration of all things". (Acts 3:21, Romans 8:21, Eph 1:10, Col 1:20, lots and lots of others) I'll worship the God who heals the sick, feeds the hungry and frees the slave. What is so sad is that you are echoing the very words of people who advocated for slavery, those who actively opposed the church leaders pushing for abolition...and you don't even seem to realize it.

Dishonest hack. I've done no such thing. You know you're preaching the "Social Gospel".

I expect God Himself to restore all things. I don't expect you to have ANYTHING to do with it. God doesn't need your help. Stop interrupting the process.... and thinking you actually doing any good. You're not. You're just spinning your wheels....

I suspect it does make you feel better. Maybe its your "penitence".... you way of "prove yourself" by being "unique" and "special"......

To put it quite bluntly, how in the world what my income is? And, again I am amazed: your arrogance knows no limits.

I've been blessed in this life...... I'm not trying to brag.... just telling you the truth. This economic system didn't hinder me nor stop the work of God in my life. You're the one claiming such nonsense.

Of which you provided no examples...

No need to. Most anyone can tell it was nothing more than an embellished history to benefit your argument.

I will remind you that you provided no evidence yourself. Just your embellished summary.

And yet you haven't even remotely engaged the Scriptural texts. I listed about two dozen or so that quite explicitly call out for a national punishment and restoration for Israel (along with a host of other nations).

I haven't seen one reference that actually deals directly with any economic system. Not one.

It really is funny how you expect someone to actually deal with your "imaginations".

 

[christundivided]

C'mon, rsc2a, stop being such a fourth grader and add some of your own thoughts instead of making me so your book report for you, you typical emergent.

Take care,

FakeRansom

I see something emerging......

Turds beget turds...

 

[ddgently]

C'mon, rsc2a, stop being such a fourth grader and add some of your own thoughts instead of making me so your book report for you, you typical emergent.

Take care,

FakeRansom

I see something emerging......

Turds beget turds...

Did I address you? Oh, that's right, I didn't.

Carry on.