The Music of the Bible Revealed?

[Ekklesian]

I think she was onto something. I'm not sure one can say these are the 'original melodies,' but it seems to me she's deciphered the meaning of the symbols in the Masoretic Texts.

Your thoughts?

 

[Gringo]

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That's very interesting, indeed. And if the psalms and others were songs, perhaps there's some truth to this.
I once owned a book (whose name I have forgotten) that said that the words of the bible were mathematically coded.
I found that interesting as well.
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[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I once owned a book (whose name I have forgotten) that said that the words of the bible were mathematically coded.

I recall hearing this years ago in church, as a kid, I believe. I’d love for someone with more knowledge to shed some light on this subject. I always found that an interesting theory.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I recall hearing this years ago in church, as a kid, I believe. I’d love for someone with more knowledge to shed some light on this subject. I always found that an interesting theory.

“Also, we find no such things as a Bible code in the Bible itself. In fact, the Scripture condemns such secretive practices. Since God has consistently revealed Himself openly and clearly to humanity from the very beginning, we should not expect Him to hide His message in a code where only a few could discover it. Such a practice is contrary to what we know about God and the way in which He has revealed Himself to us.”
Link

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

“Also, we find no such things as a Bible code in the Bible itself. In fact, the Scripture condemns such secretive practices. Since God has consistently revealed Himself openly and clearly to humanity from the very beginning, we should not expect Him to hide His message in a code where only a few could discover it. Such a practice is contrary to what we know about God and the way in which He has revealed Himself to us.”
Link

Thank you for the link. I wish I could recall the context of the Biblical math code statement I heard. Gringo’s comment post triggered some ancient comment I heard. For some reason, I feel like it had something to do with Psalms, but I might be wrong—it’s been decades.

 

[Ransom]

I once owned a book (whose name I have forgotten) that said that the words of the bible were mathematically coded.

Was it this book?

I read it back in 1997 when it was first published. It was silly.

 

[abcaines]

From a Sunday School lesson when all that Bible code stuff was running rampant...

You can make a code out of anything you want.

Take Barney for example...

A CUTE PURPLE DINOSAUR

Change all Us to Vs..
A CVTE PVRPLE DINOSAVR

Eliminate letters that are not used as Roman numerals...
CV VL DIV

Convert...
100, 5, 5, 50, 500, 1,5

Add...
100+5+5+50+500+1+5=666

 

[abcaines]

I can convert my Social Security number into 6-6-6 with some very simple mathematical operands placed amongst the numbers of each section.

 

[Ransom]

From a Sunday School lesson when all that Bible code stuff was running rampant...

You can make a code out of anything you want.

At the time, I wrote a rather detailed review of The Bible Code for an online group I was part of. Both the group and the review are long extinct, unfortunately.

I'm trying to remember the gist of my review. I likened Drosnin's Bible codes either to horoscopes or pyramidology, in the sense that they were often general enough that they could be interpreted to mean anything.

I also noted that it's easy to claim that the Bible codes predict the future, when you already know the future. Drosnin never tried to use the Bible to predict his future; all the events he supposedly found in the Bible codes were in the past in 1997 when the book was published. That's not prediction. That's post hoc reasoning.

The Hebrew Old Testament has something like 1.2 million characters. When you turn that into the world's biggest word search, you're bound to find some pattern that appears to correspond with a historical event. The law of truly large numbers makes the implausible and the coincidental practically inevitable.

 

[Gringo]

I think she was onto something. I'm not sure one can say these are the 'original melodies,' but it seems to me she's deciphered the meaning of the symbols in the Masoretic Texts.

Your thoughts?

Was it this book?

I read it back in 1997 when it was first published. It was silly.

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I don't think so. By 1997, I had already done away with my biblical library (donated to a church) and I had moved away from the city in which I was in when I read the book. I'll see if I can research it and if I find it, I'll post it here.
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[Ekklesian]

What Haik-Vantoura did was nothing like "The Bible Code" and other various numerologies. I think you're getting hung up on the opening sentences in the video, which, in my view, puts forth an erroneous presupposition as fact. The Hebrew Scriptures were not written as songs, though they contain many.

But that they were all put to music in the schools and the synagogues, there is no question.

The point here is not looking for a code in the Hebrew text itself, but deciphering the Taamim, or 'accent marks' as they're called by some, symbols of undefined meaning above and below the standard Hebrew text .

The ancient names of the accent marks are musical, and their shapes can be easily duplicated in chironomy, musical direction with hand signals. And the Hebrew name, Teamim, can by amplification mean tune or melody.

Haik-Vantoura was a learned Jewess, and also a musicologist, not a mere a musician. I have the English translation of her book on my shelves, and in it she makes a good and sholarly case for her theories, and she had gained the admiration and caught the attention of some none-too-marginal rabbis. But, without a high degree of musical expertise, one would find the application of her music theory difficult to follow.

To me, the fact that her key, being consistently applied to the symbols (not to the text) in the order as they appear in the standard Hebrew text without having to add or take away even one, yields these very natural sounding melodies is the best evidence by far that she is on to something. This certainly couldn't have been duplicated by any kind of creative math.



I said all that just to say, this is nothing like the Bible Code or numerology or finding the Beast of Revelation in a purple dinosaur or other such superstitious freakdom. It's just musicology.

 

[Gringo]

What Haik-Vantoura did was nothing like "The Bible Code" and other various numerologies. I think you're getting hung up on the opening sentences in the video, which, in my view, puts forth an erroneous presupposition as fact. The Hebrew Scriptures were not written as songs, though they contain many.

But that they were all put to music in the schools and the synagogues, there is no question.

The point here is not looking for a code in the Hebrew text itself, but deciphering the Taamim, or 'accent marks' as they're called by some, symbols of undefined meaning above and below the standard Hebrew text .

The ancient names of the accent marks are musical, and their shapes can be easily duplicated in chironomy, musical direction with hand signals. And the Hebrew name, Teamim, can by amplification mean tune or melody.

Haik-Vantoura was a learned Jewess, and also a musicologist, not a mere a musician. I have the English translation of her book on my shelves, and in it she makes a good and sholarly case for her theories, and she had gained the admiration and caught the attention of some none-too-marginal rabbis. But, without a high degree of musical expertise, one would find the application of her music theory difficult to follow.

To me, the fact that her key, being consistently applied to the symbols (not to the text) in the order as they appear in the standard Hebrew text without having to add or take away even one, yields these very natural sounding melodies is the best evidence by far that she is on to something. This certainly couldn't have been duplicated by any kind of creative math.



I said all that just to say, this is nothing like the Bible Code or numerology or finding the Beast of Revelation in a purple dinosaur or other such superstitious freakdom. It's just musicology.

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You've misunderstood my post.

I wasn't tying the music in with the codes. I was simply mentioning two different things (the music and biblical numerology ) that I found interesting. I didn't say I agreed with either supposition. Certainly not. I was just saying that I found that video interesting as I did the idea put forth in that book I read. If I don't believe in biblical inerrancy, surely, surely you must know that I don't accept the idea of a biblical code throughout the bible.
No, I was just saying that I found those two different suppostions - interesting. Although the music idea (accent marks) could have some truth. I wouldn't know.
I wasn't saying - at all - that the subject in the music video had anything to do with a code.
I'm not "hung up" on any of it, I assure you.
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[Ekklesian]

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You've misunderstood my post.

I wasn't tying the music in with the codes. I was simply mentioning two different things (the music and biblical numerology ) that I found interesting. I didn't say I agreed with either supposition. Certainly not. I was just saying that I found that video interesting as I did the idea put forth in that book I read. If I don't believe in biblical inerrancy, surely, surely you must know that I don't accept the idea of a biblical code throughout the bible.
No, I was just saying that I found those two different suppostions - interesting. Although the music idea (accent marks) could have some truth. I wouldn't know.
I wasn't saying - at all - that the subject in the music video had anything to do with a code.
I'm not "hung up" on any of it, I assure you.
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Understood. And my "You" was collective.

I just wanted to emphasize the difference in the two "schools" as it were. It's like the difference between astronomy and astrology. One is science, the other is superstition. (Actually the difference is wider than that, because even astrologers can accurately predict the positions of the sun, moon and stars in the sky for any given time.)

The teamim are there. They meant something, but no one can say with any authority exactly what. And Haik-Vantoura is not the first to approach them with the presumption that they are an ancient notation.

That doesn't mean I accept all of Haik-Vantoura's premises. She believes, and not without reason, that the tradition the Masoretes, who gave the Old Testament it's final form and inserted the teamim as they now appear in the standard text, received and preserved the traditions from the First Temple on. She thinks she may have the original melodies.

I don't think there is any real evidence of that. And without a sort of paper trail containing the accent marks to the Second Temple, no one can say with iron-clad certainty that this is even that tradition.

However the Masoretes didn't suddenly appear in 500 AD with no history, tradition or heritage. It is widely accepted that they preserved the actual pronunciation of ancient biblical Hebrew with their insertion of vowel points into the text and other such textual criticism. The consensus of conservative biblical scholarship is that the Masoretes have handed down to us "a form of the Hebrew text which in all essentials duplicates the recension which was considered authoritative in the days of Christ and the apostles, if not a century earlier..."*


*A Survey of Old Testament Introduction. Gleason L. Archer. 1994

 

[Ekklesian]

Psalm 150

The dynamics, harmonies and instrumentation are, of course, inferred. It is only the melodies preserved, if the marks are a notation.

 

[coverbd]

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That's very interesting, indeed. And if the psalms and others were songs, perhaps there's some truth to this.
I once owned a book (whose name I have forgotten) that said that the words of the bible were mathematically coded.
I found that interesting as well.
.

The Hebrew alphabet is alpha numeric. Each Hebrew letter has a distinct numerical value assigned to it. There are mathematically coded.
Shabbat shalom