The new auditorium

[RAIDER]

Here is a "what if" question.  This question would probably be best answered by those who were attending FBCH at the time.

What if the new auditorium had not been built?  What if the old auditorium and other buildings had been remodeled instead?  I know Schaap said the new auditorium was needed to handle the crowds.  Was that really true?  What would FBCH's finances look like today if not for the new auditorium?   

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Better yet. What if the old auditorium had never been built? Would we know what a "K Beam" is?

 

[RAIDER]

Better yet. What if the old auditorium had never been built? Would we know what a "K Beam" is?

Or 42-7 43

 

[Fresh Air]

Here is a "what if" question.  This question would probably be best answered by those who were attending FBCH at the time.

What if the new auditorium had not been built?  What if the old auditorium and other buildings had been remodeled instead?  I know Schaap said the new auditorium was needed to handle the crowds.  Was that really true?  What would FBCH's finances look like today if not for the new auditorium? 

IMHO, JS bought into the church growth consultants concept that a new building/auditorium leads to an immediate and drastic increase in "giving units" i.e. middle class families. What growth there was as a result of that was not as great as initially hoped, and what there was didn't stay over the medium term let alone the long term.

...of course, in hindsight it is easy to say this was a mistake, especially pastoring a much smaller church on the other side of Chicago. At the very least it is a cautionary tale for every pastor whose dreams and faith are pushing him to extremes.

 

[RAIDER]

IMHO, JS bought into the church growth consultants concept that a new building/auditorium leads to an immediate and drastic increase in "giving units" i.e. middle class families. What growth there was as a result of that was not as great as initially hoped, and what there was didn't stay over the medium term let alone the long term.

...of course, in hindsight it is easy to say this was a mistake, especially pastoring a much smaller church on the other side of Chicago. At the very least it is a cautionary tale for every pastor whose dreams and faith are pushing him to extremes.

I think we found out that Schaap was getting a lot of his church building philosophies from the mega church thought pattern.

 

[Ex-Fundy]

Here is a "what if" question.  This question would probably be best answered by those who were attending FBCH at the time.

What if the new auditorium had not been built?  What if the old auditorium and other buildings had been remodeled instead?  I know Schaap said the new auditorium was needed to handle the crowds.  Was that really true?  What would FBCH's finances look like today if not for the new auditorium? 

I say it wasn't necessary but was just the outworking of Schaap's unbridled narcissism. He thought he was too good for the stinky old building at 523 and wanted his palace. Just my opinion.

 

[Bravo]

In the time after Bro Hyles death the old church was packed. Not just full but packed. Anybody that was there then can attest to that fact. A newer bigger place was not really narcissism,... But whoever gave the report that families started leaving after we were in the new place is also accurate.

 

[RAIDER]

In the time after Bro Hyles death the old church was packed. Not just full but packed. Anybody that was there then can attest to that fact. A newer bigger place was not really narcissism,... But whoever gave the report that families started leaving after we were in the new place is also accurate.

I appreciate your input.  If I am hearing you correctly you are saying that a new auditorium was definitely needed at the time.  Why did families start leaving after moving into the new auditorium?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

In the time after Bro Hyles death the old church was packed. Not just full but packed. Anybody that was there then can attest to that fact. A newer bigger place was not really narcissism,... But whoever gave the report that families started leaving after we were in the new place is also accurate.

I appreciate your input.  If I am hearing you correctly you are saying that a new auditorium was definitely needed at the time.  Why did families start leaving after moving into the new auditorium?

Admittedly, I am an outsider to all things Hyle's, although I did attend a pastors school or 2...in the 80's.
But, rather than build a multi-million $ building, why not start multiple services, which have proven to work almost everywhere they have been implemented?

Was that option ever discussed as a legitimate 'option', I wonder aloud.

 

[RAIDER]

In the time after Bro Hyles death the old church was packed. Not just full but packed. Anybody that was there then can attest to that fact. A newer bigger place was not really narcissism,... But whoever gave the report that families started leaving after we were in the new place is also accurate.

I appreciate your input.  If I am hearing you correctly you are saying that a new auditorium was definitely needed at the time.  Why did families start leaving after moving into the new auditorium?

Admittedly, I am an outsider to all things Hyle's, although I did attend a pastors school or 2...in the 80's.
But, rather than build a multi-million $ building, why not start multiple services, which have proven to work almost everywhere they have been implemented?

Was that option ever discussed as a legitimate 'option', I wonder aloud.

Great question.

 

[Bravo]

In the time after Bro Hyles death the old church was packed. Not just full but packed. Anybody that was there then can attest to that fact. A newer bigger place was not really narcissism,... But whoever gave the report that families started leaving after we were in the new place is also accurate.

I appreciate your input.  If I am hearing you correctly you are saying that a new auditorium was definitely needed at the time.  Why did families start leaving after moving into the new auditorium?

Admittedly, I am an outsider to all things Hyle's, although I did attend a pastors school or 2...in the 80's.
But, rather than build a multi-million $ building, why not start multiple services, which have proven to work almost everywhere they have been implemented?

Was that option ever discussed as a legitimate 'option', I wonder aloud.

There were in a sense multiple services. There were A,B,C & D schedules. One main church service of course but that auditorium was used after that for B Junior Church.

You don't remember that Raider?

 

[Bravo]

In the time after Bro Hyles death the old church was packed. Not just full but packed. Anybody that was there then can attest to that fact. A newer bigger place was not really narcissism,... But whoever gave the report that families started leaving after we were in the new place is also accurate.

I appreciate your input.  If I am hearing you correctly you are saying that a new auditorium was definitely needed at the time.  Why did families start leaving after moving into the new auditorium?

Raider I really don't know. I don't know if things happened behind the scenes? It was just that after a while church people who were once "featured" or "prominent" for music specials or whatever were just no longer there. It seemed to be a gradual thing,... In a regular church it would have been more obvious of course. At FBC there is/was a larger group of people so it was not unusual to not see someone for a while that wasn't on your particular circle of friends.

 

[groupie]

The new auditorium was a waste and Jack Hyles would have flipped if he knew Schaap was going to do that. I was told by a staff member told me that Jack Hyles told him Schaap could never take over FBC as he was too flighty, bad with finances and started many things and never finished them.

I still want my name on that Alumni room I was promised to get for that $500 gave!!

 

[Ex-Fundy]

In the time after Bro Hyles death the old church was packed. Not just full but packed. Anybody that was there then can attest to that fact. A newer bigger place was not really narcissism,... But whoever gave the report that families started leaving after we were in the new place is also accurate.

Brav,

Sorry but there's no way to spin this to justify that project and expense. There are other options that FBCH had other than guilting men, women, and children there to do fundraisers to help get that thing built. Why didn't they strongly consider planting a church with existing members to free space and slow the megachurch monster down? Schaap was/is a narcissist of the worst sort.

 

[prophet]

A new auditorium was necessarry.
The one we were pitched was only 16 mil.
We voted as a church to borrow no money.
El and JS went on a spree, spending like drunken sailors.
They came back to us hat-in-hand mid project, and asked to borrow 28mil. more.
They blew through that.

It was supposed to be able to handle the conferences, but that over-flow area was supposed to be invisible the rest of the time.
Instead, we created a place with the feel that it was so big, that no one would miss you if you left.

Our real growth took place in the R.U. program and small groups (additional adult SS classes).
Many of these didn't come to the Old Aud. for any assembly.
They assembled with their departments, and then left.
Still we were busting at the seams.

Had we actually built what we originally thought we were, before We decided we had to keep up with the Joneses (Hybels), we could have done well with little debt.

Also, we suddenly decided that the building had to be done by Pastor's School, forcing millions in over-time hours and change-orders.
That was fool-hardy.

 

[Ex-Fundy]

Proph

Why was it necessary? Could not the church have just planted another church (albeit unhealthy) elsewhere and convince enough people to cut the apron strings with Jack?

 

[bgwilkinson]

Here is a "what if" question.  This question would probably be best answered by those who were attending FBCH at the time.

What if the new auditorium had not been built?  What if the old auditorium and other buildings had been remodeled instead?  I know Schaap said the new auditorium was needed to handle the crowds.  Was that really true?  What would FBCH's finances look like today if not for the new auditorium? 

FBCH has a long history of building larger auditoriums.

In the 60s we were known as the church with the dome. I don't recall the seating capacity of the building at that time, I'm guessing less than 600. That building was very dark and the dome was it's most prominent feature, kinda like a mosque. It was filling to overflowing for both Sunday services, so the decision was made to build the first half of the old auditorium. Seating was around 2,000 in a 100' x 100' building. It quickly became uncomfortably small and cramped.

The church continued to grow as the schools were started. FBCH was an exciting place, we were busting out at the seams everywhere. So the decision was made to build an even larger building to the west and join it to the 2,000 seat building increasing the capacity to about 4,000. This was the third auditorium in less than 20 years. We could not remain in the 2,000 seat building while the double sized auditorium was created so we rented the Hammond Civic Center until the construction was completed.

I believe it was 76 when we finally left the Civic Center to return to the church property. If you count the Civic Center it would make 4 auditoriums in less than 20 years.

Now the 80s continued the rapid growth, We should have been building our next auditorium around 85.

The next step in size would have been 6,000 seats which is the size of our present auditorium.

It was not possible to get a seat after SS classes. A family member was required to save seats for the family.
Needless to say a multitude of people would go home rather than fighting for a seat in a hopelessly cramped auditorium. Growth was effectively stalled.

Then the scandals started to hit and a new auditorium was no longer needed or desired. It was a continual shifting and rearranging chairs to make a non full room look full. All bench seats behind the K beams were removed. The six front rows of the east and west balcony front were removed, mezzanine closed and all extra chairs were removed. Smoke and mirrors.

It fooled many people but not everyone.

When Schaap came we started to grow again. Both English and Spanish. Building P was packing out for the Spanish and the old auditorium was packing out for the English.

It had been 30 years since we had built an auditorium, and we should have built it in the 80s but did not due to the scandals. So it was not to soon to build it. Both the Spanish and English were locked in and did not continue to grow. People are not going to keep coming when they can not find seats.

As for the others buildings, all of them were remodeled and are now in use every Sunday.

As for planting other churches.

We started them in South Holland, Portage, Crown Point, and St John. That did drain off a several hundred people.

This is how I saw it.

 

[RebeccasRants]

The new auditorium was a waste and Jack Hyles would have flipped if he knew Schaap was going to do that. I was told by a staff member told me that Jack Hyles told him Schaap could never take over FBC as he was too flighty, bad with finances and started many things and never finished them.

I still want my name on that Alumni room I was promised to get for that $500 gave!!

I thought it was Bro. Hyles' own idea for the church to build another auditorium after he was no longer pastor.  I thought he said he didn't want people holding on to their memories of him in the old auditorium--that it wouldn't be fair to the new pastor. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I assume that, for whatever reason, adding another service, was not considered to be a viable option.
A second Sunday morning service, with identical music and message, could double the seating capacity with no new building or additional debt.
Churches of all traditions and sizes do it every weekend. 

 

[bgwilkinson]

I assume that, for whatever reason, adding another service, was not considered to be a viable option.
A second Sunday morning service, with identical music and message, could double the seating capacity with no new building or additional debt.
Churches of all traditions and sizes do it every weekend. 

Here is one of the churches we looked at that has the multiple services format.
These people meet in an old theater in the poorer section of a large American city.
They have three services on a Sunday.
For what ever reason we did not adopt this option.
We love their music.
http://www.brooklyntabernacle.org/the-church/service-times

Here is another with the 3 service format just down Calumet Ave. from us.

http://www.familychristiancenter.org/times-locations/

Here's another local church on the West side with three weekend services, 1 Sat. evening and 2 on Sunday, but they also use the multi-campus setup as does Prestonwood in Dallas.

This model both muti-site and multi-campus brings in the most people in our area.
http://www.willowcreek.org/

Here is Prestonwood.

http://prestonwood.org/about/our-locations


Willow Creek and Prestonwood models were seriously considered.

We could have built another auditorium on the College campus and had our second location that way, or used the college auditorium if we were thinking small and cheap.

This was thought to have a deleterious effect on the bus ministry as many of the workers would be going to the services at the college.

It's all just so much speculation now.