The phony evangelism of Calvinism

[Biblebeliever]

You seem a bit thick, so just by way of reminder, I gave up thinking "Is not!" and "is too!" were valid forms of argumentation before I reached puberty. Try it sometime.

Scott, give me one Scripture that backs up your statement that Salvation is predetermined.

 

[rsc2a]

Those who He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son so that...

 

[Ransom]

Scott, give me one Scripture that backs up your statement that Salvation is predetermined.

Sure, whatever.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph. 1:3-12)

Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. (2 Tim. 1:8-11)

God has chosen us. He predestinated us. He saved us. He called us. Not a plan of salvation. Us.

This was done when? Before the foundation of the world. Not when we prayed a prayer or chose to believe. Before the world began.

Not according to our personal choices, but according to his good pleasure an according to his purpose and grace.

Thank you, King James Bible, for expressing this great truth so plainly.

Bibleburner, will of course continue to ignore the truth, and his most substantial answer to the Scriptures will, again, be "Is not!" This isn't because the Bible isn't plain, but because the so-called "Biblebeliever" doesn't really believe the King James Bible.

 

[Biblebeliever]

God has chosen us.

God has chosen us IN Christ.



Ephesians 1:3-4

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He predestinated us.

God predestinated us once we accept Jesus Christ. When a person chooses to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, at that point God predestinates them to be conformed to the image of His Son and also be in New Jerusalem.


Ephesians 1:5-6

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

He saved us.

He saved us when we received Christ as our Saviour.

This was done when? Before the foundation of the world. Not when we prayed a prayer or chose to believe. Before the world began.

Not according to our personal choices, but according to his good pleasure an according to his purpose and grace.

God foreordained before the foundation of the world that He would choose and predestinate those who would choose to receive His Son.

In other words, God does not choose to elect or predestinate a person until that person receives Jesus Christ. And once that person (in their free will) believes on Christ and is now in Christ, then now that that person is in Jesus Christ, God now elects that person and predestinates that person to be with Him in glory and to be conformed to the image of His Son.


Remember Scott, the Authorized King James Holy Bible, which is God's Absolute Final Authority teaches that God the Father chose us IN Christ. God chooses to save those who believe the Gospel.

And no electing and no choosing is done until one is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Wow, just wow!

BB, you sound like a politician trying to describe that he got caught with his hand in a cookie jar.

 

[BandGuy]

In other words, God does not choose to elect or predestinate a person until that person receives Jesus Christ. And once that person (in their free will) believes on Christ and is now in Christ, then now that that person is in Jesus Christ, God now elects that person and predestinates that person to be with Him in glory and to be conformed to the image of His Son.

BB,

Do you know what the word PREdestinate means?  What does the prefix PRE mean?  How about a little Greek, the true authority for understanding New Testament Scripture?

g4309. προορίζω proorizō; from 4253 and 3724; to limit in advance, i. e. (figuratively) predetermine:— determine before, ordain, predestinate.
AV (6)- predestinate 4, determine before 1, ordain 1;
to predetermine, decide beforehand in the NT of God decreeing from eternity to foreordain, appoint beforehand (Strongs)

The idea of Predestination is something that happens before we make any decision, not after.  Jesus did not wait for us to come to Him because He knew if He had, everyone of us would have fled from Him and gone straight to Hell in our sin. 

 

[Ransom]

God predestinated us once we accept Jesus Christ.

So in other words, according to you, predestinated means postdestinated.

Well, that pretty much tells me everything I need to know about your understanding of Scripture. Arrivederci.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I don't agree with bibleburner but I understand his point. I grew up in a similar church.
They believe that when we are saved then God predestinates us to be conformed to the image of his son. Presumably that won't be until Heaven so it's still predestination not post-anything.

And with this verse:
Ephesians 1:5-6
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

They believe that the verse is saying that God predestinated that all who get saved (generically) will then be adopted, not that God predestinated the exact people who would be saved and adopted.

I suppose either translation will work . . . hence the existence of Calvinism/Arminianism. If it could only be translated one way then the debate is useless.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I don't agree with bibleburner but I understand his point. I grew up in a similar church.
They believe that when we are saved then God predestinates us to be conformed to the image of his son.

Sounds like an outbreak of stupid that has infected the entire church.  Do they also believe that it was God's sovereign choice not to be sovereign, which means he's still sovereign?    Or that it's your choice to become chosen by God? 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

They believe that the verse is saying that God predestinated that all who get saved (generically) will then be adopted, not that God predestinated the exact people who would be saved and adopted.

So... when they give the gospel, do they say that Christ died for a group and not the individual?

Now pray this prayer and accept Jesus as your impersonal savior. 

 

[subllibrm]

1. Does a potential parent make an arbitrary choice between two identical children or does the parent consider the desire of the child?

I guess adoption has changed somewhat. When my grandfather was adopted at 2 months old by the neighbors, he had no part in the decision.

 

[Ransom]

I don't agree with bibleburner but I understand his point. I grew up in a similar church.
They believe that when we are saved then God predestinates us to be conformed to the image of his son. Presumably that won't be until Heaven so it's still predestination not post-anything. . . .

They believe that the verse is saying that God predestinated that all who get saved (generically) will then be adopted, not that God predestinated the exact people who would be saved and adopted.

I have a friend who believes the same way. When I point out (as I did with Bibleburner) that this passage in Ephesians says God chose us, God predestined us, God saved us, he would "agree" with me and repeat back that God predestined that all who believed in Christ would be saved. If I stated the two positions side by side, he was literally unable to tell the difference.

Such is the power of human tradition: blinding Christians to the difference between "God predestined a people" and "God predestined a plan."

 

[Darkwing Duck]

They believe that the verse is saying that God predestinated that all who get saved (generically) will then be adopted, not that God predestinated the exact people who would be saved and adopted.

So... when they give the gospel, do they say that Christ died for a group and not the individual?

Arminians believe that anyone can get saved.

 

[FSSL]

So... when they give the gospel, do they say that Christ died for a group and not the individual?

Arminians believe that anyone can get saved.

That doesn't answer the question. If the Arminian says that predestination is not for the individual because it says "us," then why does the Arminian say that Christ's death for the individual? "Christ died for us" Rom 5:8

 

[subllibrm]

They believe that the verse is saying that God predestinated that all who get saved (generically) will then be adopted, not that God predestinated the exact people who would be saved and adopted.

So... when they give the gospel, do they say that Christ died for a group and not the individual?

Arminians believe that anyone can get saved.

Calvinists believe that anyone can get saved.

The offer is valid.

The price has been paid.

Nothing is stopping them.

Except for the limitation of being dead in their trespasses and sin. Anyone who can overcome that can skip the "chosen before the foundation of the world" part and get saved. The option of exercising their free will to choose Christ is right there. The question is why doesn't anyone choose Christ without God moving them? Wait, we do have answer for that too - "lest anyone boast".

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

1. Does a potential parent make an arbitrary choice between two identical children or does the parent consider the desire of the child?

I guess adoption has changed somewhat. When my grandfather was adopted at 2 months old by the neighbors, he had no part in the decision.

You mean I can decide if I'm adopted?  Cool... I'm now the adopted son of Billionaire Ruper Murdoch.  Daddy!!!  Gimme some money!!

 

[subllibrm]

1. Does a potential parent make an arbitrary choice between two identical children or does the parent consider the desire of the child?

I guess adoption has changed somewhat. When my grandfather was adopted at 2 months old by the neighbors, he had no part in the decision.

You mean I can decide if I'm adopted?  Cool... I'm now the adopted son of Billionaire Ruper Murdoch.  Daddy!!!  Gimme some money!!

Kind of like deciding that my gender is wrong. If I can make decisions like that then I am deciding to be a native american and get me a casino check (upfront apologies to prophet). 

 

[Recovering IFB]

John 1: 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.