The size of a community of faith

[prophet]

YOU...remember YOU brought up as your first post what the functions were and if a church did not function this way it wasn't a church.

Yes, well, now the topic is your definition of a church . . . which you seem bound and determined not to defend. So be it. It's crap.

I pointed out that when Jesus started the church, that none of these functions existed.

And how many of them were there, at that time? I seem to remember there being more than just Jesus ministering to himself. Right?

I see you concede your function point.


The people or individual do reach out and evangelize people. The people or individual do build each other up. The people or individual do love God and love others. The people or individual are created for God's honor and glory. It is not difficult.


Can a single person start a church? YES.

If a single person can start a church then what is the minimum number that can be in a church? Obviously one.


If you would like a biblical example of one person starting a church, look no further than Jesus. It started with Him and He went and called the disciples one by one.


Now if you think Him starting the church is irrelevant to the discussion then maybe you should put a second coat of wax on the car. 

I have to call "foul", here.

Mat 4:18-20
18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea:for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

 

[Mathew Ward]

The individual do build each other up?

And to claim that Jesus is part of the Church is really terrible theology.

My claim was that Jesus started the church.

 

[Mathew Ward]

YOU...remember YOU brought up as your first post what the functions were and if a church did not function this way it wasn't a church.

Yes, well, now the topic is your definition of a church . . . which you seem bound and determined not to defend. So be it. It's crap.

I pointed out that when Jesus started the church, that none of these functions existed.

And how many of them were there, at that time? I seem to remember there being more than just Jesus ministering to himself. Right?

I see you concede your function point.


The people or individual do reach out and evangelize people. The people or individual do build each other up. The people or individual do love God and love others. The people or individual are created for God's honor and glory. It is not difficult.


Can a single person start a church? YES.

If a single person can start a church then what is the minimum number that can be in a church? Obviously one.


If you would like a biblical example of one person starting a church, look no further than Jesus. It started with Him and He went and called the disciples one by one.


Now if you think Him starting the church is irrelevant to the discussion then maybe you should put a second coat of wax on the car. 

I have to call "foul", here.

Mat 4:18-20
18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea:for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

Raises his hand...foul on number 23...

I was thinking more along this line.

John 1:40-42  One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

 

[rsc2a]

The individual do build each other up?

And to claim that Jesus is part of the Church is really terrible theology.

My claim was that Jesus started the church.

And was the sole member...

 

[prophet]

Jesus named them by 2's

Mat 10:2-4
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;  3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

He sent them out by 2's

Mar 6:7
7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

He establishes fact by at least 2:

Mat 18:16
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2Co 13:1
1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

He commanded that we teach by at least 2's

1Co 14:29-32
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:37
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

And He continues by 2's to the end:

Rev 11:3
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

No church can be established w/o 2 witnesses.

No assembly is a church, unless at least 2 testify.

So most of you liars aren't "in church" at all, ever.

 

[prophet]

YOU...remember YOU brought up as your first post what the functions were and if a church did not function this way it wasn't a church.

Yes, well, now the topic is your definition of a church . . . which you seem bound and determined not to defend. So be it. It's crap.

I pointed out that when Jesus started the church, that none of these functions existed.

And how many of them were there, at that time? I seem to remember there being more than just Jesus ministering to himself. Right?

I see you concede your function point.


The people or individual do reach out and evangelize people. The people or individual do build each other up. The people or individual do love God and love others. The people or individual are created for God's honor and glory. It is not difficult.


Can a single person start a church? YES.

If a single person can start a church then what is the minimum number that can be in a church? Obviously one.


If you would like a biblical example of one person starting a church, look no further than Jesus. It started with Him and He went and called the disciples one by one.


Now if you think Him starting the church is irrelevant to the discussion then maybe you should put a second coat of wax on the car. 

I have to call "foul", here.

Mat 4:18-20
18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea:for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

Raises his hand...foul on number 23...

I was thinking more along this line.

John 1:40-42  One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Was that 23 random, or is that an MJ reference?

 

[Mathew Ward]

YOU...remember YOU brought up as your first post what the functions were and if a church did not function this way it wasn't a church.

Yes, well, now the topic is your definition of a church . . . which you seem bound and determined not to defend. So be it. It's crap.

I pointed out that when Jesus started the church, that none of these functions existed.

And how many of them were there, at that time? I seem to remember there being more than just Jesus ministering to himself. Right?

I see you concede your function point.


The people or individual do reach out and evangelize people. The people or individual do build each other up. The people or individual do love God and love others. The people or individual are created for God's honor and glory. It is not difficult.


Can a single person start a church? YES.

If a single person can start a church then what is the minimum number that can be in a church? Obviously one.


If you would like a biblical example of one person starting a church, look no further than Jesus. It started with Him and He went and called the disciples one by one.


Now if you think Him starting the church is irrelevant to the discussion then maybe you should put a second coat of wax on the car. 

I have to call "foul", here.

Mat 4:18-20
18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea:for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

Raises his hand...foul on number 23...

I was thinking more along this line.

John 1:40-42  One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Was that 23 random, or is that an MJ reference?

It was my number in college. MJ is a much better reference though...

 

[prophet]

YOU...remember YOU brought up as your first post what the functions were and if a church did not function this way it wasn't a church.

Yes, well, now the topic is your definition of a church . . . which you seem bound and determined not to defend. So be it. It's crap.

I pointed out that when Jesus started the church, that none of these functions existed.

And how many of them were there, at that time? I seem to remember there being more than just Jesus ministering to himself. Right?

I see you concede your function point.


The people or individual do reach out and evangelize people. The people or individual do build each other up. The people or individual do love God and love others. The people or individual are created for God's honor and glory. It is not difficult.


Can a single person start a church? YES.

If a single person can start a church then what is the minimum number that can be in a church? Obviously one.


If you would like a biblical example of one person starting a church, look no further than Jesus. It started with Him and He went and called the disciples one by one.


Now if you think Him starting the church is irrelevant to the discussion then maybe you should put a second coat of wax on the car. 

I have to call "foul", here.

Mat 4:18-20
18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea:for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

Raises his hand...foul on number 23...

I was thinking more along this line.

John 1:40-42  One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

How was your 12' jumper?

 

[Mathew Ward]

YOU...remember YOU brought up as your first post what the functions were and if a church did not function this way it wasn't a church.

Yes, well, now the topic is your definition of a church . . . which you seem bound and determined not to defend. So be it. It's crap.

I pointed out that when Jesus started the church, that none of these functions existed.

And how many of them were there, at that time? I seem to remember there being more than just Jesus ministering to himself. Right?

I see you concede your function point.


The people or individual do reach out and evangelize people. The people or individual do build each other up. The people or individual do love God and love others. The people or individual are created for God's honor and glory. It is not difficult.


Can a single person start a church? YES.

If a single person can start a church then what is the minimum number that can be in a church? Obviously one.


If you would like a biblical example of one person starting a church, look no further than Jesus. It started with Him and He went and called the disciples one by one.


Now if you think Him starting the church is irrelevant to the discussion then maybe you should put a second coat of wax on the car. 

I have to call "foul", here.

Mat 4:18-20
18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea:for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

Raises his hand...foul on number 23...

I was thinking more along this line.

John 1:40-42  One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

How was your 12' jumper?

I played center in HS and point guard in college.

I had a good mid-range game to go with my post up abilities.

 

[subllibrm]

The individual do build each other up?

And to claim that Jesus is part of the Church is really terrible theology.

My claim was that Jesus started the church.

Your claim was that you and Jesus together met the qualifications of a church.

 

[Ransom]

I see you concede your function point.

Then get your eyes checked. I concede nothing.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The size of a church is not designated in the Bible.
There are large churches, small churches...there are no one person churches.

The effectiveness of the church and it's size, in my experience, depends greatly on the under-shepherd(s0 of that church.
Some can effectively lead and organize thousands, hundreds, dozens....
Others can effectively lead and organize those who fit around a kitchen table.

Honestly curious. How can there be intimacy,  accountability,  and effective discipline in a group of hundreds,  especially thousands?

From what I have experienced in larger churches,  the functioning church is actually at the Sunday school / home group level,  and corporate meeting is basically an add-on. 

Yeah, but the megachurch corporate meeting add-on is where the big bucks are made.

Big bucks are made?
What does that even mean?

Oh, I don't know, maybe the $250,000 offfice carpet Jack Schaap had installed in his 4th office....

So, pee, you and mater believe that any church which receives an offering in a corporate,/public worship service is the moral and spiritual equivalent to Schaap and FBH under his leadership?

Gee, Mr., did you put the fat night crawler in the water just for me?
It sure looks yummy!

So, that a yes?
ANY pastor or church?

Luk 7:31-32
31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

I'll take that as "I know that was a dumb assertion to make and I'm trying to get out of it as gracefully as I can". 

 

[prophet]

Tardheel is going to do all the talking for me from now on, since he obviously has a lot of words to stuff in mouth.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437P using Forum Fiend v1.2.10.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Tardheel is going to do all the talking for me from now on, since he obviously has a lot of words to stuff in mouth.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437P using Forum Fiend v1.2.10.

Please, in your own words....preferably just a yes or no.
Do you believe that any church or pastor that receives an offering in a public worship service equates to Jack Schaap and First Baptist Hammond under his regime?

Either you don't think so, which is surely true.
Or you do think so and are dodging the issue because you know how dumb that assertion is....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Matthew Ward's opinion that a church can be one person and God seems as if it would identify the one true and pure church for the kitchen table crowd.

 

[rsc2a]

Matthew Ward's opinion that a church can be one person and God seems as if it would identify the one true and pure church for the kitchen table crowd.

Funny thing...the "kitchen table crowd" is the subset consistently defining church as the Bible uses the term.

 

[prophet]

Tardheel is going to do all the talking for me from now on, since he obviously has a lot of words to stuff in mouth.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437P using Forum Fiend v1.2.10.

Please, in your own words....preferably just a yes or no.
Do you believe that any church or pastor that receives an offering in a public worship service equates to Jack Schaap and First Baptist Hammond under his regime?

Either you don't think so, which is surely true.
Or you do think so and are dodging the issue because you know how dumb that assertion is....

This isn't how you originally worded it, which led to my objection in the form of sarcasm.

You aren't gonna push me into comparing anyone who takes an "offering" to Someone who fared sumptuously on the sheep's backs.

Why do you insist on false premises?

Do you really think that anything I've said is out of insincerity, other than the obvious sarcasm?

Many people, put in a postion to access more than they should need to, become corrupted into an entitlement mentality that is no different than any other "wealth gotten by vanity".

But accepting money from Saints for a good work is obviously not going to be disputed by any reasonable Bible student.

Anishinaabe

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Tardheel is going to do all the talking for me from now on, since he obviously has a lot of words to stuff in mouth.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437P using Forum Fiend v1.2.10.

Please, in your own words....preferably just a yes or no.
Do you believe that any church or pastor that receives an offering in a public worship service equates to Jack Schaap and First Baptist Hammond under his regime?

Either you don't think so, which is surely true.
Or you do think so and are dodging the issue because you know how dumb that assertion is....

This isn't how you originally worded it, which led to my objection in the form of sarcasm.

You aren't gonna push me into comparing anyone who takes an "offering" to Someone who fared sumptuously on the sheep's backs.

Why do you insist on false premises?

Do you really think that anything I've said is out of insincerity, other than the obvious sarcasm?

Many people, put in a postion to access more than they should need to, become corrupted into an entitlement mentality that is no different than any other "wealth gotten by vanity".

But accepting money from Saints for a good work is obviously not going to be disputed by any reasonable Bible student.

Anishinaabe

This was and is my question.

Tarheel Baptist:
So, pee, you and mater believe that any church which receives an offering in a corporate,/public worship service is the moral and spiritual equivalent to Schaap and FBH under his leadership?

And, your answer was, in the end, 'no'.
Thank you! I appreciate the answer.
I thought it incredulous that you believed otherwise, but on the FFF, you never know.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Matthew Ward's opinion that a church can be one person and God seems as if it would identify the one true and pure church for the kitchen table crowd.

Funny thing...the "kitchen table crowd" is the subset consistently defining church as the Bible uses the term.

Tarheel Baptist:

The size of a church is not designated in the Bible.
There are large churches, small churches...there are no one person churches.

The effectiveness of the church and it's size, in my experience, depends greatly on the under-shepherd(s) of that church.
Some can effectively lead and organize thousands, hundreds, dozens....
Others can effectively lead and organize those who fit around a kitchen table.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Matthew Ward's opinion that a church can be one person and God seems as if it would identify the one true and pure church for the kitchen table crowd.

Funny thing...the "kitchen table crowd" is the subset consistently defining church as the Bible uses the term.

Tarheel Baptist:

The size of a church is not designated in the Bible.
There are large churches, small churches...there are no one person churches.

The effectiveness of the church and it's size, in my experience, depends greatly on the under-shepherd(s) of that church.
Some can effectively lead and organize thousands, hundreds, dozens....
Others can effectively lead and organize those who fit around a kitchen table.

So what you're saying is that the effectiveness of a church rests entirely on the abilities of the pastor.