The "stumbling block" of Calvinism

[rsc2a]

That's not an answer. It's a why question, not a what question. You offered a what. In other words, you still haven't answered the question.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not inclined to drunkenness. Never was. Why not?

Ask TRT.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's not an answer. It's a why question, not a what question. You offered a what. In other words, you still haven't answered the question.

You say I didn't respond and then I prove I did and then you say its not an answer...... I can't do anything to please you. Go away!!!

 

[rsc2a]

That's not an answer. It's a why question, not a what question. You offered a what. In other words, you still haven't answered the question.

You say I didn't respond and then I prove I did and then you say its not an answer...... I can't do anything to please you. Go away!!!

I strongly implied you didn't answer the question. I said nothing about you not responding. Now if I ask my kids when Columbus landed in the Americas and they say "apples", they have responded but they have not answered the question.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That's not an answer. It's a why question, not a what question. You offered a what. In other words, you still haven't answered the question.

You say I didn't respond and then I prove I did and then you say its not an answer...... I can't do anything to please you. Go away!!!

I strongly implied you didn't answer the question. I said nothing about you not responding. Now if I ask my kids when Columbus landed in the Americas and they say "apples", they have responded but they have not answered the question.

It's one of those "there are no wrong answers" quizzes.  You know, like,

Q. "How did that make you feel?"
A. "The Magna Carta"

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's not an answer. It's a why question, not a what question. You offered a what. In other words, you still haven't answered the question.

You say I didn't respond and then I prove I did and then you say its not an answer...... I can't do anything to please you. Go away!!!

I strongly implied you didn't answer the question. I said nothing about you not responding. Now if I ask my kids when Columbus landed in the Americas and they say "apples", they have responded but they have not answered the question.

You never raised the issue when I responded the first time. Why did you even acknowledge it now? You're being dishonest. I'm done with you!!

 

[rsc2a]

That's not an answer. It's a why question, not a what question. You offered a what. In other words, you still haven't answered the question.

You say I didn't respond and then I prove I did and then you say its not an answer...... I can't do anything to please you. Go away!!!

I strongly implied you didn't answer the question. I said nothing about you not responding. Now if I ask my kids when Columbus landed in the Americas and they say "apples", they have responded but they have not answered the question.

You never raised the issue when I responded the first time. Why did you even acknowledge it now? You're being dishonest. I'm done with you!!

i..e "I cannot answer your question."

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's not an answer. It's a why question, not a what question. You offered a what. In other words, you still haven't answered the question.

You say I didn't respond and then I prove I did and then you say its not an answer...... I can't do anything to please you. Go away!!!

I strongly implied you didn't answer the question. I said nothing about you not responding. Now if I ask my kids when Columbus landed in the Americas and they say "apples", they have responded but they have not answered the question.

You never raised the issue when I responded the first time. Why did you even acknowledge it now? You're being dishonest. I'm done with you!!

i..e "I cannot answer your question."

Sure I can answer the question.... I'm just not answering you. Do your best to try to understand the difference.

 

[rsc2a]

That's not an answer. It's a why question, not a what question. You offered a what. In other words, you still haven't answered the question.

You say I didn't respond and then I prove I did and then you say its not an answer...... I can't do anything to please you. Go away!!!

I strongly implied you didn't answer the question. I said nothing about you not responding. Now if I ask my kids when Columbus landed in the Americas and they say "apples", they have responded but they have not answered the question.

You never raised the issue when I responded the first time. Why did you even acknowledge it now? You're being dishonest. I'm done with you!!

i..e "I cannot answer your question."

Sure I can answer the question.... I'm just not answering you. Do your best to try to understand the difference.

It's very simple.

1. You are a raving fanatic about this issue, so much so that you deliberately lie about the beliefs of the people on the other side of this issue.
2. You have devoted days and days to said ravings so it's not a matter of time or interest regarding the topic at hand.
3. The question I have asked is the strongest argument by far for any type of determinist belief system, including Calvinism. (<~~ not a Calvinist)
4. If you could provide a logical answer to the question which precludes the necessity of determinism, all of those systems would be demonstrably false.
5. Ergo, you have no answer other than "Nuh uh!"

A restatement in case you didn't catch it: The question I have asked is the foundational basis for any determinist system. Any logical proof that negates the needs for that foundation destroys the system entirely. If you had such an argument, you could prove your case beyond doubt. Until you can provide such an argument, your version of "free will" is logically non-existent. (Hint: The reason you are having such a problem is because you are arguing against the nature of reality itself.)

And, for a review, here is the question that you refuse to answer:

Can you name any choice you have made, any choice, that wasn't decided by your past history, genetic makeup, time in history, available resources, current circumstances, reasoning ability, etc?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I'm done with you!!

You keep using those words.  I don't think they mean what you think they mean. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's not an answer. It's a why question, not a what question. You offered a what. In other words, you still haven't answered the question.

You say I didn't respond and then I prove I did and then you say its not an answer...... I can't do anything to please you. Go away!!!

I strongly implied you didn't answer the question. I said nothing about you not responding. Now if I ask my kids when Columbus landed in the Americas and they say "apples", they have responded but they have not answered the question.

You never raised the issue when I responded the first time. Why did you even acknowledge it now? You're being dishonest. I'm done with you!!

i..e "I cannot answer your question."

Sure I can answer the question.... I'm just not answering you. Do your best to try to understand the difference.

It's very simple.

1. You are a raving fanatic about this issue, so much so that you deliberately lie about the beliefs of the people on the other side of this issue.
2. You have devoted days and days to said ravings so it's not a matter of time or interest regarding the topic at hand.
3. The question I have asked is the strongest argument by far for any type of determinist belief system, including Calvinism. (<~~ not a Calvinist)
4. If you could provide a logical answer to the question which precludes the necessity of determinism, all of those systems would be demonstrably false.
5. Ergo, you have no answer other than "Nuh uh!"

A restatement in case you didn't catch it: The question I have asked is the foundational basis for any determinist system. Any logical proof that negates the needs for that foundation destroys the system entirely. If you had such an argument, you could prove your case beyond doubt. Until you can provide such an argument, your version of "free will" is logically non-existent. (Hint: The reason you are having such a problem is because you are arguing against the nature of reality itself.)

And, for a review, here is the question that you refuse to answer:

Can you name any choice you have made, any choice, that wasn't decided by your past history, genetic makeup, time in history, available resources, current circumstances, reasoning ability, etc?

At least.... something more than one liners...

You think you're smarter than the Scriptures themselves? Did any prophet, apostle, or Christ Himself ever ask such a question?
What's laughable is the vey fact you believe the answer to the question exclusively proves determinism. I suppose that your hold such a view of God Himself. That His character and interaction within humanity can produce none other result than what is. This is evident from the fact you've being questioning whether God Himself has freewill. So much for God doing as He pleases......



Cause and effect isn't a an exclusive aspect of determinism.

 

[rsc2a]

i.e. "I'm still not going to answer the question. Oh yeah...I also lied when I said, 'I'm done with you'."

 

[praise_yeshua]

i.e. "I'm still not going to answer the question. Oh yeah...I also lied when I said, 'I'm done with you'."

You can't win with you..... All I wanted was something more than you bashing everything I said with one liners. That's all. I wanted to be treated honestly and fairly. When I said I was "done with you". I had ever intention of doing so. You post something worth responding to and you then claim I'm lying for what I said.

What do YOU want? Do you want me to answer or are you just playing games?

1. I think its fair that you explain how cause and effect is exclusive to determinism? Everything you mentioned in your challenge arrives from "cause and effect". Determinism has the crazy belief that there can be only one outcome. In-determinism does not deny cause and effect. It just believes there are multiple outcomes and it is impossible, at times, to "determine" exactly what will happen. At one time, Science had a hard determinism view. More and more, Science is embracing the clear examples of "in-determinism" seen in this life. In Mathematics, this has given rise to "probability theory". Which is little more than an attempt to "weight" probable outcomes.

2. If you want a Biblical example, then by all means. Pay attention to

Ecc 9:11  I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

1Co 15:37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

You may also pay close attention to the parable of the "Good Samaritan".

Luk 10:31  Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side.\

By "chance" the Levite is part of the parable but he certainly isn't part of the outcome. He could have been!!!! This might be judged based on "probability"... but who would have even a "Samaritan" would have be so kind to get involved with a Jew coming down from Jerusalem????

This silly nonsense of "fate" and "absolute determinism" has little bases in the Scriptures.

If you really want to be accurate, you should be requiring we deal with "Predeterminism". I hope you're aware that "determinism" is rather broad subject that encompasses varying beliefs.

How is that for an answer? I await a response that contains MORE than just your customary "that's not an answer".

 

[rsc2a]

i.e. "Yeah. I still cannot answer the question"

 

[praise_yeshua]

i.e. "Yeah. I still cannot answer the question"

Explain what I'm missing?

 

[rsc2a]

i.e. "Yeah. I still cannot answer the question"

Explain what I'm missing?

Can you name any choice you have made, any choice, that wasn't decided by your past history, genetic makeup, time in history, available resources, circumstances, reasoning ability, etc?

 

[praise_yeshua]

i.e. "Yeah. I still cannot answer the question"

Explain what I'm missing?

Can you name any choice you have made, any choice, that wasn't decided by your past history, genetic makeup, time in history, available resources, circumstances, reasoning ability, etc?

Forget about me. Lets narrow it down. I gave a Scriptural example of the Good Samaritan. Explain to me how the Good Samaritan made a choice based on these criteria? He acted contrary to his inclination.

If you still believe this isn't applicable to your question, then tell me why?

 

[rsc2a]

"Contrary to one's inclination" doesn't answer the question.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Contrary to one's inclination" doesn't answer the question.

That's isn't all I said. I included inclination because TRT included it in his agreement with you. \

The Good Samaritan's choice wasn't based on "past history, genetic makeup, time in history, available resources, circumstances, reasoning ability"

You included "etc"... I don't know how to answer ETC!!!!!!

 

[rsc2a]

Yes. The fact that he was in the right place and time, had the resources and ability, was raised in such a way that he felt compassion, was able to see the problem, etc etc didn't have anything to do with his choice. Or something.