Theodicy, will we ever know the full origins of evil?

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

You really believe fundamentalist have turned philosophy into a dirty word ? I guess you believe the apostle Paul was a fundamentalist because it was Paul that warned those in Christ to not be spoiled(ruined) by philosophy. . Col 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,after the tradition of men,after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

*Sigh* Never mind. You’re obviously missing some essential understanding.

 

[ALAYMAN]

No. Everything God created was good as He said. The good that was created in satan he corrupted through his pride and evil desires. The good created in Adam was corrupted through his disobedience to God.

Per Piper (and just about all of Christian hustorical orthodoxy) then if the Angel Lucifer was created good in all respects then what was within him that opted for evil desires?

 

[voicecrying]

You really believe fundamentalist have turned philosophy into a dirty word ? I guess you believe the apostle Paul was a fundamentalist because it was Paul that warned those in Christ to not be spoiled(ruined) by philosophy. . Col 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,after the tradition of men,after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Spoiled thru philosophy is different than philosophy in total being evil.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Per Piper (and just about all of Christian hustorical orthodoxy) then if the Angel Lucifer was created good in all respects then what was within him that opted for evil desires?

Eze 28:15 - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Spoiled thru philosophy is different than philosophy in total being evil.

I believe Paul was warning us that to use philosophy( worldly wisdom) in place of Godly wisdom is a trap that leads to ruination.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Eze 28:15 - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Yes, a wonderful Scripture which I firmly believe. Lucifer was wonderfully observant of God and honoring Him, until he wasn’t. However, that verse doesn’t give the “why” of Lucifer’s iniquity, so the question still stands, why would a perfect and good creation of God at ANY time in its existence suddenly incline towards something not good?

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Yes, a wonderful Scripture which I firmly believe. Lucifer was wonderfully observant of God and honoring Him, until he wasn’t. However, that verse doesn’t give the “why” of Lucifer’s iniquity, so the question still stands, why would a perfect and good creation of God at ANY time in its existence suddenly incline towards something not good?

The why—>

Isa 14:13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 - I will ascendabove the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The why—>

Isa 14:13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 - I will ascendabove the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Thank you for those verses. They are bulletproof truths that demonstrate the sin of pride and idolatry were the first sin in the universe, but, they do NOT in any way describe the “why” a morally good creature would suddenly have ANY inclination to act against their perfect nature.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Thank you for those verses. They are bulletproof truths that demonstrate the sin of pride and idolatry were the first sin in the universe, but, they do NOT in any way describe the “why” a morally good creature would suddenly have ANY inclination to act against their perfect nature.

Sure it does. That is why I don’t place any value in philosophy it raises questions on what God and scripture have given the answers to and questions those answers with questions that supposedly men can hash out arrive at an answer when scripture has already answered the question. What value is there in going past what scripture explains ?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Sure it does.

Ok, not patronizing you at all, because I believe all men/women can be my teacher. Could you explain how those verse give the reason for WHY Lucifer went from morally perfect in his nature to desiring immorality?

That is why I don’t place any value in philosophy it raises questions on what God and scripture have given the answers to and questions those answers with questions that supposedly men can hash out arrive at an answer when scripture has already answered the question. What value is there in going past what scripture explains ?

I actually agree with you very much on this, and if you go back to the first few posts in this thread you will see the humorous responses given by me and a few others point to the folly of trying to figure this mystery out, not only while we have clouded vision in this life, but probably unanswerable (more likely immaterial and irrelevant) in our glorified bodies.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Ok, not patronizing you at all, because I believe all men/women can be my teacher. Could you explain how those verse give the reason for WHY Lucifer went from morally perfect in his nature to desiring immorality?



I actually agree with you very much on this, and if you go back to the first few posts in this thread you will see the humorous responses given by me and a few others point to the folly of trying to figure this mystery out, not only while we have clouded vision in this life, but probably unanswerable (more likely immaterial and irrelevant) in our glorified bodies.

Satan through his self importance and pride acted on the desires that he knew were evil . Jesus was tempted but never acted on any temptation and remained sinless. Yielding to the temptation as satan did was the beginning of evil IMO. Satan said in his heart so he reasoned with himself and not with God.—>
The why—>

Isa 14:13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the

 

[ALAYMAN]

Satan through his self importance and pride acted on the desires that he knew were evil . Jesus was tempted but never acted on any temptation and remained sinless. Yielding to the temptation as satan did was the beginning of evil IMO. Satan said in his heart so he reasoned with himself and not with God.—>
The why—>

Isa 14:13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the

Thanks, I think we are at impasse, probably due to an inability to express myself clearly enough. When you answered above you started by describing the things we know are sin (self importance and pride) as (pre)existing in Lucifer, but if he was perfect morally it makes zero sense that he would possess morally imperfect traits to act upon by force of his will.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Thanks, I think we are at impasse, probably due to an inability to express myself clearly enough. When you answered above you started by describing the things we know are sin (self importance and pride) as (pre)existing in Lucifer, but if he was perfect morally it makes zero sense that he would possess morally imperfect traits to act upon by force of his will.

Not to beat a dead horse I re-read these verses and believe they have the answer. Eze 28:17 - Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Satan as God said was created perfect but because of his heart becoming lifted up because of his beauty and brightness his reasoning became corrupted.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Not to beat a dead horse I re-read these verses and believe they have the answer. Eze 28:17 - Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Satan as God said was created perfect but because of his heart becoming lifted up because of his beauty and brightness his reasoning became corrupted.

I believe you used a word earlier, “ex nihilo” which is fitting here. Did this pride of Lucifer create itself ex nihilo or does sin have an eternal deity-like quality?

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Not to beat a dead horse I re-read these verses and believe they have the answer. Eze 28:17 - Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Satan as God said was created perfect but because of his heart becoming lifted up because of his beauty and brightness his reasoning became corrupted.

Consider the following: You can look for God, or you can look for something else!

Simple Boolean Algebra - God or Not God (One or Zero)

God = Good
Not God = Evil

Lucifer simply chose something else that was NOT GOD.

It is from this premise that I assert my hypothesis that Evil existed in the theoretical sense prior to Lucifer's fall. Evil is not a person or some sort of "spirit." It is a philosophical concept.

I love the fact that in the ages to come, we will have the INABILITY to be seduced by evil!

 

[Leatherneck0311]

I believe you used a word earlier, “ex nihilo” which is fitting here. Did this pride of Lucifer create itself ex nihilo or does sin have an eternal deity-like quality?

Pride create itself out of nothing ? I believe the pride was a result ( not a creation)of his own desires ( in spite of him being created perfectly) because he focused on his beauty and brightness and not God, which corrupted his wisdom(reasoning).

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Consider the following: You can look for God, or you can look for something else!

Simple Boolean Algebra - God or Not God (One or Zero)

God = Good
Not God = Evil

Lucifer simply chose something else that was NOT GOD.

It is from this premise that I assert my hypothesis that Evil existed in the theoretical sense prior to Lucifer's fall. Evil is not a person or some sort of "spirit." It is a philosophical concept.

I love the fact that in the ages to come, we will have the INABILITY to be seduced by evil!

Amen, looking forward to not being able to be seduced by evil. I don’t believe evil existed in the hypothetical I believe evil resulted from corrupted wisdom(reasoning).—>

Eze 28:17 - Thine heartwas lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Pride create itself out of nothing ? I believe the pride was a result ( not a creation)of his own desires ( in spite of him being created perfectly) because he focused on his beauty and brightness and not God, which corrupted his wisdom(reasoning).

The ex nihilo question was rhetorical absurdity (Reductio ad absurdum), meaning I assume you know better than that, as was the query about evil having eternal qualities . As far as “pride was a result (not a creation)…desires” that is a respectable assumption, but it still assumes that pride was inherently amenable to his “perfect” moral disposition, which is philosophically and logically troubling.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

The ex nihilo question was rhetorical absurdity (Reductio ad absurdum), meaning I assume you know better than that, as was the query about evil having eternal qualities . As far as “pride was a result (not a creation)…desires” that is a respectable assumption, but it still assumes that pride was inherently amenable to his “perfect” moral disposition, which is philosophically and logically troubling.

Not trying to be disagreeable but why would we need to assume “inherently amenable” to his moral disposition when scripture details the why and the how of Satan’s loss of wisdom( reasoning) because of his pride. To me this raises the question is going past what scripture describes and tells us not opening us up to speculation and becoming our own worse enemy ? Isn’t this the very thing that Satan tempted Eve with in the garden ?—>

Gen 3:6 - And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Not trying to be disagreeable but why would we need to assume “inherently amenable” to his moral disposition when scripture details the why and the how of Satan’s loss of wisdom( reasoning) because of his pride. To me this raises the question is going past what scripture describes and tells us not opening us up to speculation and becoming our own worse enemy ? Isn’t this the very thing that Satan tempted Eve with in the garden ?—>

Gen 3:6 - And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I'm not sure I understand the connection you are making in reference to Satan and Eve. I particularly don't think that comparing Satan's temptation of Eve (and her desire to incline her ear to Satan) is analogous to the pursuit of actual/real truth (about the origin of sin). I agree that to pursue carnal knowledge, or worldly knowledge that leads us away from Christ is wrong. And I think it's fair to say that some things are simply unknowable (I stated this early on in the thread) and in spending too much time (philosophically "navel gazing") pursuing "the secret things" we show ourselves to be foolish and potentially far less productive in the kingdom than we ought to be. This debate, in all of its entanglements about the nature of man and the nature of God, is an ages old discussion. I find it fascinating because the roots of what a person believes about both, the nature of God AND man, will shape their theological priorities and emphases within the doctrinal/ethical/evangelical life. The crux of my question about the cause/origin of evil isn't by any means new. How evil came to exist in a world of a God who is eternally and infinitely good is beyond perplexing. I don't think I'll find a satisfactory answer (hence, the OP question about whether we'd even know the answer in heaven), but I like to think about things that are challenging.