Trump inserts foot again…Medal of Freedom

[Jo]

If it weren't for a left-leaning and anti-Trump bias, no explanation would be necessary.

If there were quality candidates on the Republican ticket whose communication did not need explanation from others..........if wishes were horses.

 

[aleshanee]

Wouldn't the plane astern of McCain's be the plane behind his?

it would... . and since aircraft carriers are always heading into the wind during the flight operations - any dump of fuel plus also any fire resulting from it - would move in that direction..... and move quickly....

 

[Baptist Renegade]

I’m not worried about his tweets.

When ppl give an explanation alternative like the one you give I always think……would you rather eat poop that smells bad or would you rather eat poop that smells good?

I’m gonna vote for Trump. There are you happy

If I got a choice I guess I’ll eat the poop that doesn’t smell bad.

Compare Trump to a good president or a great president what are you left with?

My ideal candidate for president would be someone other than Trump who has the very same platform, economic, and foreign policies as Trump. Since there is no candidate who fits this description, I guess I will vote for him and then I will pray for him as God has commanded me to.

 

[Bruh]

My ideal candidate for president would be someone other than Trump who has the very same platform, economic, and foreign policies as Trump. Since there is no candidate who fits this description, I guess I will vote for him and then I will pray for him as God has commanded me to.

I think he should’ve picked Vivek for his VP, too. But Trump isn’t going to choose someone that will easily out shine himself.

There’s no one that is as intelligent and is able to articulate themselves like Vivek. The man understands what needs to be done and understands how to make it happen.

I learn something almost every time I listen to him.

 

[tmjbog]

I think he should’ve picked Vivek for his VP, too. But Trump isn’t going to choose someone that will easily out shine himself.

There’s no one that is as intelligent and is able to articulate themselves like Vivek. The man understands what needs to be done and understands how to make it happen.

I learn something almost every time I listen to him.

Vivek was my first choice. I like what Donald did first time around, just feared that after 10 years of the leftists campaigning against him plus the insults (which I usually find hilarious) and missteps that he would have a tough time winning.

I like JD for the most part and he seems to be able to argue the points well. The only thing I don't like is his book. He seems to have an ongoing theme in it that, where he comes from, you always protect your family. Then goes on to trash his family publicly. Also the way he acts like he was at Yale having no idea about culture outside of Appalachia when he had already spent several years at Ohio State.

 

[Bruh]

Vivek was my first choice. I like what Donald did first time around, just feared that after 10 years of the leftists campaigning against him plus the insults (which I usually find hilarious) and missteps that he would have a tough time winning.

I like JD for the most part and he seems to be able to argue the points well. The only thing I don't like is his book. He seems to have an ongoing theme in it that, where he comes from, you always protect your family. Then goes on to trash his family publicly. Also the way he acts like he was at Yale having no idea about culture outside of Appalachia when he had already spent several years at Ohio State.

We needed Trump in 2016 to disrupt the system the way he did but now we actually need a president with substance.

For whatever reason I can’t get excited about JD.

If he was anything like us the average Joe, he wouldn’t have criticized Trump back when he ran the first time. He would’ve recognized what he was doing from the jump.

It’s very easy to forget where you come from.

 

[Ransom]

Wouldn't the plane astern of McCain's be the plane behind his?

The planes are angle-parked with their engines facing outboard. How is McCain supposed to have flashed the plane astern of his?

No. 416 is McCain's, and the A-4 astern of him, no. 405, was Fred White's: the pilot who was most likely struck first by the rocket. That plane is not visible in the photo because it's engulfed in flames. McCain didn't cause White's plane to go up unless his ordnance was mounted sideways, and if he was the one responsible for the rocket firing, it would have been the F-4s on the starboard side of the fight deck that were struck, not White's and his own craft.

F-4 no. 110 (out of frame in the photo) is clearly properly aligned for a rocket to strike White's and McCain's A-4s. Dismissing an official report isn't rational when it lines up with the evidence.

 

[Ransom]

how does a solitary photograph of 2 jets on fire prove or disprove anything at all?......

I asked for an alternative explanation that is consistent with the visual evidence. Questioning the Navy's conclusions just because they're the "official story" doesn't accomplish that.

much less when or from where a rocket was fired across the deck?..

A "rocket fired across the deck" would destroy planes across the deck, not your own.

it can;t... and it doesn;t..... and not many people in that picture were left to explain it either - coz practically that entire group you see staring in the direction the missile was supposed to have hit... rather than looking in the direction it was rumored to have come from.... were killed moments later in the aftermath - when bombs being stored on board exploaded and they tried to fight the fires....

Yes, I would imagine that the crew trying to fight the fires would be looking at the fires, not the place where a rocket used to be, which at this moment is not on fire.

but if judging it on the picture alone... then it made more sense even at the time to surmise that the fire started by a hot or wet start of mccains engine... and which then engulfed both his plane and the plane behind his

What plane behind his? If you mean Fred White's plane astern of his, he wasn't aligned with McCain's jets, and wasn't going to get engulfed by anything coming from. If you mean astern of McCain's A-4, there's nothing there but open space, because his engines are pointed off the deck.

rather than an F4 phantom... none of which can be seen in the picture facing towards mccains jet - and which would have been less likely to carry zuni rockets ....as it was being used primarily as air to air defense rather than ground attack.. at the time...

Phantom no. 110, from which the Zuni rocket came, is not in frame in the photo, which is focused on the burning A-4s. "Less likely to carry" obviously does not mean "did not carry" or "never carried."

The Zuni could be used for both air-to-air and air-to-ground operations. The rocket that misfired was an anti-tank Mk. 32.

and mccain himself failed to offer any explanations - as he claimed in the days that followed to have no or very limited memory of what actually happened....

He was lucky to have escaped with his life. Was he supposed to be taking notes?

this fact alone coming from a guy with a history of disregarding safety rules and performing hot shot stunts is one of the main reasons suspicion for being at fault fell on him....

What safety rules was McCain disregarding that got his plane shot down while sitting on the flight deck?

and then of course there are people who know the u.s. navy very well and who have seen it make up stories to explain away what happened after numerous other incidents and accidents over the years....

Sure. But so far, this is your best evidence that it did happen in this particular instance. "It could have been, therefore it was" is not a particularly convincing argument.

like everyone else i was taught a picture is worth a thousand words.... but i have to say i think that one comes up short.....

It certainly comes up short of explaining how John McCain blew up his own plane with a rocket.

 

[aleshanee]

I asked for an alternative explanation that is consistent with the visual evidence. Questioning the Navy's conclusions just because they're the "official story" doesn't accomplish that.

and i told you.... . nothing in that picture dispells witness reports that mccains jet caught fire after he performed an illegal starting procedure... which set the jets behind him on fire, then both spread to other jets and set off zuni rockets that were loaded under the wings..... ..

you seem to have a lot of faith and trust in the p.r. department of the u.s. navy that even it;s own veterans and line officers don;t have....... is there a reason for that?..... do you have a personal stake in the official u.s. navy version of the incident being valid?......

people who actually worked the decks of aircraft carriers during wartime operations at sea... and don;t simply look at pictures and diagrams for their information - have said the navys official version doesn;t add up...... sorry... but they are the ones i am going to believe... .. and not because i am some kind of conspiracy theorist but because i have seen the navy lie about things before... . everybody who lives out here in this middle of the ocean outpost surrounded by the military has seen it....

there ia major scandal going on right now right here in hawaii involving the u.s. navy and fuel tanks they allowed to leak into not only their on base water systems but also into the public water supply.... they have lied about it for years even in the face of evidence to prove they are responsible...and they are lying about it still........ .....so pardon me if i don;t trust everything they say just because they were able to draw up some convincing diagrams and prove their narrative to non-military people in canada.....

 

[Ransom]

you seem to have a lot of faith and trust in the p.r. department of the u.s. navy that even it;s own veterans and line officers don;t have....... is there a reason for that?.....

Yes. Occam's Razor.

Absent evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is the best one.

 

[aleshanee]

if a jet on the deck is astern of another one it is considered to be behind it even if the exhaust ports of engines don;t line up....and when a ship is underway and travelling into the wind burning fuel from any kind of faulty start is going to travel astern as well.... later it will move in all directions as that picture shows it doing....... .. ...if you have ever been out to sea on a fast moving ship heading into the wind then you have experienced it first hand... loose or airborn objects includin fire smoke and etc often go in the direction you wouldn;t expect them to... ........ .

as to occams razor.... there could not be a more simple explanation than if the navy... (us goverment).... believes it is in their best interest to lie about something - they will lie about it.... .. especially if that reason to lie involves protecting the reputation of an admiral by protecting the admirals son.....

 

[abcaines]

I'm going to weigh in on this... As BR pointed out, this incident became the focus of teaching for all hands in the USN from recruits to pilots and all the way up to admirals; whoever has any shipboard responsibilities whether aviation sailors or black shoes. This incident has been discected more than any other because of what can be learned from it. The Navy would not benefit from the lessons to be learned if they were trying to stick with a fake version of the story. Think about it: If you alter the facts to provide a cover-up, you are failing to account for all the contributing factors that made this incident the disaster it was. I'll not delve into the number of factors that led to this disaster. Suffice it to say that no disaster of this scale happens because of just a few factors. Disasters are the result of a "perfect storm" of contributing factors. Lives would be lost in any future disaster response if any piece of the puzzle was ignored because it didn't fit within a certain narrative.

 

[aleshanee]

I'm going to weigh in on this... As BR pointed out, this incident became the focus of teaching for all hands in the USN from recruits to pilots and all the way up to admirals; whoever has any shipboard responsibilities whether aviation sailors or black shoes. This incident has been discected more than any other because of what can be learned from it. The Navy would not benefit from the lessons to be learned if they were trying to stick with a fake version of the story. Think about it: If you alter the facts to provide a cover-up, you are failing to account for all the contributing factors that made this incident the disaster it was. I'll not delve into the number of factors that led to this disaster. Suffice it to say that no disaster of this scale happens because of just a few factors. Disasters are the result of a "perfect storm" of contributing factors. Lives would be lost in any future disaster response if any piece of the puzzle was ignored because it didn't fit within a certain narrative.

the incident was definitely learned from.... especially all the response issues and safety of personnel trying to fight the fire..... even civilian fire fighting units study it... ...and it;s also true that many factors came into play such as munitions improperly stored on deck and etc... ... i don;t if they did it before that time but i do know that now days most government agencies including the navy have people who do nothing but imagine and create possible disaster scenarios - thinking up possible things that could go wrong then holding drills to practice them... ...i know because my dad took part in a lot of those with both the fire department and also in his job as civilian trainer teaching advanced life saving techniques to navy medics that serve with the marines..... i got to go with him on a few of those fire department drills and play victim.. ...got painted up with fake blood and everything.... ..even got put in the water a few times to be fake rescued.... it was fun... .

 

[Ransom]

if a jet on the deck is astern of another one it is considered to be behind it even if the exhaust ports of engines don;t line up....

That's a semantic argument about what constitutes "astern" on a ship, whereas I am saying you can't startle another pilot by shooting a flame into his face, if your jets aren't pointed at his face, but out to sea.

and when a ship is underway and travelling into the wind burning fuel from any kind of faulty start is going to travel astern as well....

If McCain's A-4 had rocket pods mounted under the wings, they weren't astern of his engines in any sense. For the flame of his supposed wet start to cook off a rocket, it would have had to drift against he wind.

later it will move in all directions as that picture shows it doing....... ..

The picture shows the aftermath of the rocket strike, which ruptured a fuel tank on Fred White's jet, spilling and igniting jet fuel on the flight deck.

as to occams razor.... there could not be a more simple explanation than if the navy... (us goverment).... believes it is in their best interest to lie about something

It isn't a "more simple explanation" to add entities to it: namely, adding speculation about the USN's motives for covering up the true reason for a maritime disaster. A cover-up apparently so effective that the Navy continues to this day to use the Forrestal disaster as a safety lesson, and even revamped their fire-safety procedures based on their own lie.

 

[Ransom]

This incident has been discected more than any other because of what can be learned from it.

Isn't that the way of the most popular conspiracy theories, though? Look at 9/11 truthers, moon hoaxers, JFK buffs and Holocaust deniers--they all doggedly insist their fantasies are true, though they fly in the face of the facts of some of the most documented events in history.

 

[abcaines]

Isn't that the way of the most popular conspiracy theories, though? Look at 9/11 truthers, moon hoaxers, JFK buffs and Holocaust deniers--they all doggedly insist their fantasies are true, though they fly in the face of the facts of some of the most documented events in history.

I'm not talking about the conspiracy theorists dissecting this disaster. I'm talking about the Navy itself. The only (post WWII) event that has received as much scrutiny as this has been the Walker Spy Ring.

 

[aleshanee]

i am not going to argue this anymore.... you are going beyond simply arguing the different opinions from people who were either eye witnesses to the event versus what navy officials said... and making it personal with comments about conspiracy theorists and trying to compare those of us who question what the navy said to all the hoaxers and deniers and nut cases in the world....... .. ....it;s all speculation at his point since none of was there.... ..but there were some who were there and did not believe what they navy said... and others who worked in the same field.... know all about ship operations... and they had serious questions the navy either could not or would not answer... . and they are not all conspiracy theorist nut jobs........ ... . but i am done with this... .. there are far better and more important issues to be dogmatic and lose friends over...... in my opinion this one and the legacy of john mccain is not it.....

 

[Ransom]

I'm talking about the Navy itself.

As am I. The claim is that the entire hierarchy of the Navy has colluded to cover up the true cause of a major shipboard disaster, supposedly to protect the son of the commander of the Pacific Fleet.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

 

[Ransom]

but there were some who were there and did not believe what they navy said...

That's their right. But why should I believe them instead?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Ok, back on topic. When Trump was asked for clarification on what he meant a couple days after the initial statement he basically said the same thing…

“People who get the Congressional Medal of Honor — which I’ve given to many — are often horribly wounded or dead. They’re often dead. They get it posthumously. When you get a Congressional Medal of Honor, that to me is the ultimate, but it’s a painful thing to get. When you get the Presidential Medal of Freedom, it’s usually for other things you achieve… Great success in sports or someplace else,”


I think it’s a non-issue, but I also think he’s full of cringeworthy distractions, and has been since day one. I’ll still vote for him, because of the policies he stands and stood for, nose held.