TULIP: The good, bad and ugly

[subllibrm]

Go ahead and identify these extra pieces please. Or to use a different game metaphor, show your cards. What are the other "options" beyond God put me there or I put myself there?

You keep saying that you have the trump card but never reveal it. Just call us names. Tell us were are crazy.

I never said God didn't put us there. However, there aren't just two King pieces on the game board. God is the only one powerful enough to save anyone. That doesn't mean there isn't a pawn in the corner calling for help from the Master. The pawn can't help himself. The pawn can't get to where he needs to go. Only the King can help. Asking for help doesn't shift the power from God to the pawn. The pawn will always be powerless to help himself.

Why do you claim there is only one explanation? Why do you want to always boils things down only one of two possibilities? I know mankind loves doing this across so many different spectrum.

You are the one who insists everyone else is black or white while you have uniquely discovered the mystery of the gray that no one in the history of the church has ever learned or taught.

I have been very clear that I am not a Calvinist but you will not allow for that.

FWIW I am a firm believer that free will and chosen before the foundation of the world are both true. Many see a contradiction in that and I believe God is bigger than any perceived contradiction. He clearly teaches us both in His word and while I can't claim to understand how it all works, I am firm in my faith that what He says is true. The key component for me is that I am comfortable not knowing how it all works because I trust that God has it all undercontrol.

Now feel free to tell how childish I am and that I don't understand my own theology.

 

[subllibrm]

Ah... the "you don't understand" defense.

Irony alert!!!!

Sure I say you don't understand... then I follow it up with WHY you don't understand. I never just say "you don't understand" and leave it at that. This is the "you don't understand" defense I am referencing.

Adding "you don't understand your own theology" doesn't explain anything.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Go ahead and identify these extra pieces please. Or to use a different game metaphor, show your cards. What are the other "options" beyond God put me there or I put myself there?

You keep saying that you have the trump card but never reveal it. Just call us names. Tell us were are crazy.

I never said God didn't put us there. However, there aren't just two King pieces on the game board. God is the only one powerful enough to save anyone. That doesn't mean there isn't a pawn in the corner calling for help from the Master. The pawn can't help himself. The pawn can't get to where he needs to go. Only the King can help. Asking for help doesn't shift the power from God to the pawn. The pawn will always be powerless to help himself.

Why do you claim there is only one explanation? Why do you want to always boils things down only one of two possibilities? I know mankind loves doing this across so many different spectrum.

You are the one who insists everyone else is black or white while you have uniquely discovered the mystery of the gray that no one in the history of the church has ever learned or taught.

I have been very clear that I am not a Calvinist but you will not allow for that.

FWIW I am a firm believer that free will and chosen before the foundation of the world are both true. Many see a contradiction in that and I believe God is bigger than any perceived contradiction. He clearly teaches us both in His word and while I can't claim to understand how it all works, I am firm in my faith that what He says is true. The key component for me is that I am comfortable not knowing how it all works because I trust that God has it all undercontrol.

Now feel free to tell how childish I am and that I don't understand my own theology.

Listen. I have said your belief in Election is Calvinistic. That is the truth. You have shared your belief in Election. I've seen it. You haven't shared much of anything else. That part of you belief is Calvinistic. Ask anyone.

As far as "grey area". You're wrong. I'm not the only one that sees grey when it comes to the Calvinist Arminian debate. If you believe this.... then you need to look again.

 

[Bob H]

I have been very clear that I am not a Calvinist but you will not allow for that.

FWIW I am a firm believer that free will and chosen before the foundation of the world are both true. Many see a contradiction in that and I believe God is bigger than any perceived contradiction. He clearly teaches us both in His word and while I can't claim to understand how it all works, I am firm in my faith that what He says is true. The key component for me is that I am comfortable not knowing how it all works because I trust that God has it all undercontrol.

A man after my own heart................BTW, he accused me of being a Calvinist 

 

[subllibrm]

Go ahead and identify these extra pieces please. Or to use a different game metaphor, show your cards. What are the other "options" beyond God put me there or I put myself there?

You keep saying that you have the trump card but never reveal it. Just call us names. Tell us were are crazy.

I never said God didn't put us there. However, there aren't just two King pieces on the game board. God is the only one powerful enough to save anyone. That doesn't mean there isn't a pawn in the corner calling for help from the Master. The pawn can't help himself. The pawn can't get to where he needs to go. Only the King can help. Asking for help doesn't shift the power from God to the pawn. The pawn will always be powerless to help himself.

Why do you claim there is only one explanation? Why do you want to always boils things down only one of two possibilities? I know mankind loves doing this across so many different spectrum.

You are the one who insists everyone else is black or white while you have uniquely discovered the mystery of the gray that no one in the history of the church has ever learned or taught.

I have been very clear that I am not a Calvinist but you will not allow for that.

FWIW I am a firm believer that free will and chosen before the foundation of the world are both true. Many see a contradiction in that and I believe God is bigger than any perceived contradiction. He clearly teaches us both in His word and while I can't claim to understand how it all works, I am firm in my faith that what He says is true. The key component for me is that I am comfortable not knowing how it all works because I trust that God has it all undercontrol.

Now feel free to tell how childish I am and that I don't understand my own theology.

Listen. I have said your belief in Election is Calvinistic. That is the truth. You have shared your belief in Election. I've seen it. You haven't shared much of anything else. That part of you belief is Calvinistic. Ask anyone.

As far as "grey area". You're wrong. I'm not the only one that sees grey when it comes to the Calvinist Arminian debate. If you believe this.... then you need to look again.

Yes, I believe in election. I also believe in free will. This is my version of gray that you insist is black Calvinism (or white Calvinism, I'm not sure who gets which color). I have explained it many times on other threads. Both are true.

As for your gray, you are the one who claimed that your theology is not based on the teachings of anyone else. That it is all of your own discovery.

BTW rsc2a is a gray guy too. And you have called him childish and a nut job and whatever other pejorative came to mind at the time.

 

[subllibrm]

I have been very clear that I am not a Calvinist but you will not allow for that.

FWIW I am a firm believer that free will and chosen before the foundation of the world are both true. Many see a contradiction in that and I believe God is bigger than any perceived contradiction. He clearly teaches us both in His word and while I can't claim to understand how it all works, I am firm in my faith that what He says is true. The key component for me is that I am comfortable not knowing how it all works because I trust that God has it all undercontrol.

A man after my own heart................BTW, he accused me of being a Calvinist 

Don't be so childish. You don't even understand your own theology!  ;D

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Nope. Only in the mind of a child playing chess with two King pieces.

Clearly, you've wrapped your theology around your preconceived conclusions.  God is a gentleman when you want him to be, and not when you don't.  You have set up free will as your idol, and simply patched up the theology where it doesn't work. 

 

[FSSL]

Salvation is either initiated by God or man. You cannot have a middle ground. You can say you do... but that is absurd.

That is why Scripture describes it in stark terms:

Blind can see
Lost is found
Dead is made alive

 

[subllibrm]

Salvation is either initiated by God or man. You cannot have a middle ground. You can say you do... but that is absurd.

That is why Scripture describes it in stark terms:

Blind can see
Lost is found
Dead is made alive

I don't see a "middle ground". I see a difference in perspective.

As I have said before:

"Whosoever will" is an offer to the unbeliever.
"Chosen before the foundation of the world" is a promise of security for the believer.

As an unbeliever "I chose" to believe/follow/trust/accept Jesus (I know I did because I was there. ). But as a believer hungry to know God better and learn from His word, I found out that my decision was a response to His removing the blindness of my heart and mind. This allowed me to see the truth and cry out to Him. Something I could not do when I was dead/deaf/blind.

Someone will accuse me of splitting hairs or wanting to have it both ways. Since it is in scripture "both ways" I will let God worry about any accusations against me. Again I am comfortable not knowing exactly how it works.

The reason that I find this to be a good place to hang my hat is that it does not allow me to go down the 1-2-3 pray after me road nor does give place for a "maybe you are elect" offer of salvation.

Present the truth and let the Holy Spirit speak. Pretty simple.

 

[FSSL]

As an unbeliever "I chose" to believe/follow/trust/accept Jesus (I know I did because I was there. ). But as a believer hungry to know God better and learn from His word, I found out that my decision was a response to His removing the blindness of my heart and mind. This allowed me to see the truth and cry out to Him. Something I could not do when I was dead/deaf/blind.

.... and THAT is an excellent way to describe it.

 

[T-Bone]

Salvation is either initiated by God or man. You cannot have a middle ground. You can say you do... but that is absurd.

That is why Scripture describes it in stark terms:

Blind can see
Lost is found
Dead is made alive

I don't see a "middle ground". I see a difference in perspective.

As I have said before:

"Whosoever will" is an offer to the unbeliever.
"Chosen before the foundation of the world" is a promise of security for the believer.

As an unbeliever "I chose" to believe/follow/trust/accept Jesus (I know I did because I was there. ). But as a believer hungry to know God better and learn from His word, I found out that my decision was a response to His removing the blindness of my heart and mind. This allowed me to see the truth and cry out to Him. Something I could not do when I was dead/deaf/blind.

Someone will accuse me of splitting hairs or wanting to have it both ways. Since it is in scripture "both ways" I will let God worry about any accusations against me. Again I am comfortable not knowing exactly how it works.

The reason that I find this to be a good place to hang my hat is that it does not allow me to go down the 1-2-3 pray after me road nor does give place for a "maybe you are elect" offer of salvation.

Present the truth and let the Holy Spirit speak. Pretty simple.

That's pretty much where I hang my hat. Don't worry to much if it bothers others who demand we all wear a label.  Noan made theological system can fully describe the glorious work of God in salvation and man's response.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have been very clear that I am not a Calvinist but you will not allow for that.

FWIW I am a firm believer that free will and chosen before the foundation of the world are both true. Many see a contradiction in that and I believe God is bigger than any perceived contradiction. He clearly teaches us both in His word and while I can't claim to understand how it all works, I am firm in my faith that what He says is true. The key component for me is that I am comfortable not knowing how it all works because I trust that God has it all undercontrol.

A man after my own heart................BTW, he accused me of being a Calvinist 

Yes. I did. I don't do the same to him.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Nope. Only in the mind of a child playing chess with two King pieces.

Clearly, you've wrapped your theology around your preconceived conclusions.  God is a gentleman when you want him to be, and not when you don't.  You have set up free will as your idol, and simply patched up the theology where it doesn't work.

Sure... Whatever, if it helps you sleep at night.... so be it.

Calvinist generally love the fact they can always blame God for what they don't want to be a part of....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Salvation is either initiated by God or man. You cannot have a middle ground. You can say you do... but that is absurd.

That is why Scripture describes it in stark terms:

Blind can see
Lost is found
Dead is made alive

Salvation was initiated by God. Long before this world was ever formed. Long before He ever made man.

Throw every detail in the mix.... and its a lot more complicated than trying to boil it down to the "Blind can see"... "lost is found".

FSSL.... you know. I like you. I do. You know I do..... but you just refuse to let it go.

Does your canon have more detail than the "blind see" and "dead made alive"..... Does it? 

Why don't you just remove everything else from your canon and just leave a few "slogans" you prefer....so the little children can focus on what's important?

In a lot of ways, the Calvinist argument is no different than the KJVOist argument. God said His word will not pass away and that equals the KJV. It either is.... or it isn't.  You're blind if you can't see the similarities. Just like the silly HebrewOnlyist that refuse to embrace anything a Old Greek text says because..... God choose to preserve the OT in the Hebrew language....

 

[FSSL]

Throw every detail in the mix.... and its a lot more complicated trying to boil it down to the "Blind can see"... "lost is found"

I don't see why these analogies need more explanation? They are hardly complicated, unless they are being redefined.

FSSL.... you know. I like you. I do. You know I do..... but you just refuse to let it go.

No doubt! Likewise... brothers can have pointed, heated discussions. In the end... we are all brothers!

Hopefully, next time we are through your area, you will be in better health!

 

[subllibrm]

Throw every detail in the mix.... and its a lot more complicated trying to boil it down to the "Blind can see"... "lost is found"

I don't see why these analogies need more explanation? They are hardly complicated, unless they are being redefined.

FSSL.... you know. I like you. I do. You know I do..... but you just refuse to let it go.

No doubt! Likewise... brothers can have pointed, heated discussions. In the end... we are all brothers!

Hopefully, next time we are through your area, you will be in better health!

I am hoping to schedule a meet up with FSSL this summer. I would do the same with PY if he were coming this way. By golly,  if I ever got the chance, I'd even buy the rodent a beverage of his choice! 

 

[Bob H]

Hopefully, next time we are through your area, you will be in better health!

I'll be at Baker's the last of July on vacation. Maybe you can buy me some books.